[OGHF2] Hugh_Ruka Players 4,054 posts 5,647 battles Report post #26 Posted January 4 WT has a nice complete simulator for that ingame ... You can select tanks/ammo and targets and even change impact location and angle and you can see what's exactly going on ... one can only dream ... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,812 battles Report post #27 Posted January 4 4 hours ago, Figment said: What would be nice is if you could input the distance and get an output. You could put in a sliderbar for setting the range and maybe use colour for indication of how great a percentage of the optimal penetration the penetration is at that range. With a little colour legenda below it and a tool tip on how to use the slider bar, of course. :) It's a nice idea, though no promises, as this is still after all a QoL change. 4 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said: If you really seek the information you will find it especially if it's important to you. WG can't be blamed for people not being able to go to a bit of effort to get what data they need. Btw to know these pen values really won't improve your gameplay. Not knowing them is not an excuse for being terrible at the game. Fair point as well. 4 hours ago, Karasu_Browarszky said: It's just that the 15 km range seems like the optimal range considering many maps. I don't know, but I assume that aside from caliber considerations, ships with a longer maximum range should also have a better pen when going over the 15 km range. It's not always the case. Borodino has amazing pen but rather mediocre range. Incomparable has huge shells, decent pen, but low range. The correlation there is that ships that are generally designed as "ships that perform well at range" will have longer range, and ships that are designed to be played at medium to close range will usually have a smaller range, though it is not necessarily true in all cases. Des Moines has low range, bad shell arcs, yet her pen is not bad. Fair seas captain! ~Sera 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NWP] 159Hunter Players 4,528 posts Report post #28 Posted January 4 3 hours ago, Seraphice said: Des Moines has low range, bad shell arcs, yet her pen is not bad. How dare you say something bad about my waifu 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[S-N-W] LukkaiCH [S-N-W] Players 547 posts 13,817 battles Report post #29 Posted January 5 Vor 16 Stunden, Figment sagte: What would be nice is if you could input the distance and get an output. You could put in a sliderbar for setting the range and maybe use colour for indication of how great a percentage of the optimal penetration the penetration is at that range. With a little colour legenda below it and a tool tip on how to use the slider bar, of course. :) It would be nice. But also a bit much for the small space available, I feel. It could probably be fitted on the Gear page though? Vor 18 Stunden, Wulf_Ace sagte: To be honest after reading name of the topic I expected something diffrent... I... I would lie if I were saying that the thought didn't cross my mind as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[MORIA] Johnny_Moneto Beta Tester 2,903 posts 22,225 battles Report post #30 Posted January 5 Am 4.1.2023 um 11:41, 22cm sagte: Actually it is better to show the lowest penetration, at the maximum range. That would always be Caliber ÷ 14.3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BAZI] allufewig Beta Tester 2,912 posts 15,294 battles Report post #31 Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Johnny_Moneto said: That would always be Caliber ÷ 14.3 That is functionally correct. But not because of penetration formula, but because of a different mechanic. Penetration value for the most (if not all) ships, is much higher at their respective max ranges than overmatch value. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[AGRES] citaDELer Players 253 posts 20,043 battles Report post #32 Posted January 9 V 4. 1. 2023 v 11:22 Panocek řekl/a: I'm positively convinced something like Penetration at: 5km - x 10km - y 15km - z should be doable and understandable enough? Heck, even WG used this format in Armada series something like this should be there , so sure not without info aaa wargaming... no brain for basic logic things Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[S-N-W] LukkaiCH [S-N-W] Players 547 posts 13,817 battles Report post #33 Posted January 11 Am 9.1.2023 um 13:25, citaDELer sagte: something like this should be there , so sure not without info aaa wargaming... no brain for basic logic things Pretty sure people would then start crying about why they didn't penetrate... the angled target. "But the schemata in port says!" Edit: Oh who am I kidding. They're doing that now, even without such a thing. But it definitely would be more common. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[_I_] Nibenay78 Players 3,266 posts 27,734 battles Report post #34 Posted January 11 On 1/4/2023 at 11:24 AM, Seraphice said: I can see the point to have the pen value at 0km and the ship's max range, but to some this may seem by looking at this that the penetration formula is linear... Fair seas captain! ~Sera I however fail to see why there isnt an "hidden" option in settings called "display advanced ship parameters" with a BIG warning that this will display all details and could be confusing/not intuitive for a player. Upon checking this option, all details such as sigma, torpedo spot time, AP pen at 0-5-10..etc will displayed in port. Together with guidelines like "sigma value determines how close to center of dispersion ellipse shells are likely to land. Higher sigma is better" and "AP penetration is not linear with distance". One might even have tiers of this like checkboxes with "display intermediate/advanced/all ship parametere". Even one that has "display guidelines" so people familiar with the parameters dont have to see this all the time. Sure most interested players will look up 3rd party sites for many things, but having to find simple static numbers like sigma and torpedo spot time (which is very relevant because often there is marginal torpedo speed between 2 choises of torpedoes) outside the game is simply disappointingly far below what i expect. tldr: Most are simple values! Just display them and then maybe more newbies will know they even exist and can google their meaning anyway! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[L-DI] coolrunings_99 Players 129 posts 14,939 battles Report post #35 Posted January 11 A note of caution, we re inches away (pun intended) from turning penetration lament into RNG formulas territories and deliberations😁. IMHO WG has a wee bit skewed outlook on things random, and randomness in general🤟😉. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[WG] Seraphice WG Staff 1,664 posts 7,812 battles Report post #36 Posted January 12 18 hours ago, coolrunings_99 said: A note of caution, we re inches away (pun intended) from turning penetration lament into RNG formulas territories and deliberations😁. IMHO WG has a wee bit skewed outlook on things random, and randomness in general🤟😉. Good thing then that penetration is not random. The formula can be used to calculate exact penetration at all distances. Fair seas captain! ~Sera Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NWP] Ubertron_X [NWP] Beta Tester 2,657 posts 25,756 battles Report post #37 Posted January 12 On 1/4/2023 at 10:42 AM, Seraphice said: The reason for this is that AP penetration scales with distance and every ship basically has a unique formula based on many characteristics such as shell caliber, weight, speed, drag, krupp value etc. Hence the reason why there is no fixed value that we can show in port for this. For those who are really interesting in more detailed statistics, there are plenty of 3rd party applications that visualise the penetration charts for ships. Fair seas captain! ~Sera Sorry if I am late to the party but in my opinion this is humbug as there is no such thing as too much information, the question rather being how this additional details are presented to the user. I have the firm opinion that everything that is relevant to a game (and this is not limited to WoWs) should be accessable via the game (which includes the games manual and official wiki if any) and should not rely on the work of 3rd parties. One easy way to achieve this is to have the information arranged in layers which can than be accessed as need be, and some other companies are already doing this. Click on a vehicle to get some basic information about the vehicle. If this does not suffice click on a link to call up the vehicles wiki entry within the game client, which will show a more detailed overview and all relevant equipment used. If this does not suffice click on the equipment link to call up the equipments wiki entry and details which for the guns will then be containing a gunnery chart. It is this simple "if you do want to learn more, then click here" mechanic that enables people to actually learn more, to better understand the game and to improve their gameplay. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[L-DI] coolrunings_99 Players 129 posts 14,939 battles Report post #38 Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Seraphice said: Good thing then that penetration is not random. The formula can be used to calculate exact penetration at all distances. Fair seas captain! ~Sera Yeah, kinda have mixed feelings on that one cause The Pen Formula is used on actual hits, while the number of those is skewed on ones aim and The Other Formulas, 😉 of mostly RNG ‘ no fun or much fun for You’ kind of formulas. For example, one can either aim good or aim for crap, but the formulas stories do not end there😁 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[I-J-N] Karasu_Browarszky [I-J-N] Players 13,025 posts Report post #39 Posted January 12 It's not the formula alone but also the way you drop the cookie on the floor that determines how it crumbles. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HAMAR] Puffin_ Players 737 posts Report post #40 Posted January 12 "where the fck is penetration???" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HUN-T] Adm_Lindemann Players 231 posts 11,220 battles Report post #41 Posted January 14 On 1/4/2023 at 11:18 AM, Seraphice said: Say we do this and a person who does not know how AP penetration works looks at this number. Now he compares this number between various ships and will see Ship A has a higher pen value at 15km than Ship B, so Ship A must have better penetration - but that is not always true, because of how penetration curves work in our game. Ship B could have better penetration at 16km+ Incomplete information is not great. Like we said, there are 3rd party apps available to those who really are interested in learning more, and there you will be able to find more detailed and more accurate information than just "penetration at 15km". And for those who do not use said 3rd party applications it would not be very relevant to add this in-game either. Fair seas captain! ~Sera I'm always impressed by the incompetence that veegee expresses nearly all the time they are communicating by any channels. So, the solution is NOT mandating to learn, how AP penetration works but doesn't show the value at all. Fantastic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[AGRES] citaDELer Players 253 posts 20,043 battles Report post #42 Posted January 14 ther should be basic info... in 10km --- 300mm, thats all... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ZARA] Tsarssa Players 5 posts 2,685 battles Report post #43 Posted January 14 On 1/4/2023 at 1:24 PM, Seraphice said: Kind of as I mentioned above, though as a simplified thing, yes this would be good, but not optimal. A lot of things aren't optimally displayed, but if you're going to display things such as initial shell velocity. It makes quite a sense to display certain thresholds of penetration such as initial penetration, max range penetration, and/or half range penetration. Some ships only have AP as a shell type and it's a vital part of the information to know if you can penetrate/citadel certain ships from whatever angle. Not to mention it's just simply better and more reliable to have an official source than resorting to 3rd party in-game extract sources. I know you guys have a lot on your hands to do, it's just a thought. Kind regards, - Tsarssa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[PEZ] Yedwy Players 11,301 posts 39,586 battles Report post #44 Posted January 15 @Seraphice ok so if its one “simple” reliable number only routine why are you not displaying the overmatch value then? Its guaranteed pen same as the HE pen and SAP pen that you DO display? Hmmm? Why not display sigma its also one number? I ll tell you why - muddying up the waters and I am pretty sure you know exactly what I mean 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POP] Altsak Players 791 posts 16,516 battles Report post #45 Posted January 15 On 1/4/2023 at 12:24 PM, Seraphice said: Kind of as I mentioned above, though as a simplified thing, yes this would be good, but not optimal. Better than what we have now. A stop gap measure before you guys figure out what is the optimal way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
