Playerbase degraded so hard it loses basic operations

[DirtyHeddy]

6 minutes ago, Karasu_Browarszky said:

Which then means, that if you want to play smart, you only pick the strongest ships per tier/class you got. That's a huge downside, because I've always appreciated the opportunity to grind the midtiers in ops instead of randoms.

Versatility is more recommendable.

 

e.g. Edinburgh is a strong ship. But when going against BBs that runs straight at You she's worthless. In a Cleveland You can switch to HE and burn them down.

[Figment]

1 minute ago, DirtyHeddy said:

Versatility is more recommendable.

 

e.g. Edinburgh is a strong ship. But when going against BBs that runs straight at You she's worthless. In a Cleveland You can switch to HE and burn them down.

It's got smoke and 10km torps you can make work, which is more likely to work against bots.

 

Of course, when you launch, be sure the torp prediction indicator is off by deselecting the target ship, or it'll mysteriously know to steer clear of launched torps it has not detected yet.

[lup3s]

11 minutes ago, Figment said:

The most important thing in OPs IMO is to get teamwork going. Make sure people know what they're going to do. Ask at the start if people know the OP. Mark map locations and state next wave threats prior to them occuring if they don't. Tell them what you expect from them. Tell them what you're doing and if necessary, why. If you want OPs to improve from a player perspective, then every OP should have learning moments for someone on that team. Which is quite likely.

 

Of course there's the potential language barrier or recalcitrant teenager barrier, but in general I've found people to be willing to listen to someone taking on the role of commander, especially if they listen to what their fellow players prefer to do. You can make that sort of action work in a team framing. Just be sure they're suggestions, not orders (aside from marking priority targets for focus fire).

 

Tbh more often than not this "commander" is an idiot and increases the chance of failure - e.g. when, at the start of Aegis, player(s) type to go East / G-line ... you know the Op is 10x harder by that point

[Figment]

Just now, lup3s said:

Tbh more often than not this "commander" is an idiot and increases the chance of failure - e.g. when, at the start of Aegis, player(s) type to go East / G-line ... you know the Op is 10x harder by that point

Learning moment! :D

[Karasu_Browarszky]

24 minutes ago, lup3s said:

 

Tbh more often than not this "commander" is an idiot and increases the chance of failure - e.g. when, at the start of Aegis, player(s) type to go East / G-line ... you know the Op is 10x harder by that point

 

Yes, I can see how this can be an issue.

[lup3s]

1 minute ago, Figment said:

Learning moment! :D

 

The problem is that they then think the Op is harder / failing because others did not take the potato route and get focused more.

They think the problem is not their idiot tactic, but others not following their idiot tactic - hence they never learn.

 

e.g. Hermes, where it seems like 90% of the playerbase thinks that escorting the BB means trailing several kilometers behind it. And then they complain the Op is difficult to win because of the DDs in the end

 

e.g. Cherry Blossom, where players seem to think they can survive focus fire from 3 IJN CAs and multiple IJN DDs; or they just sit stationary near the CVs, usually full HP inside the healing circle, waiting for the defeat to come 

 

e.g. Raptor Rescue, as if the title isn't clear enough, it seems like many players don't realise the main task of this Op is to keep the Raptor alive

 

e.g. Killer Whale, going to the exit zone seems too hard for many - makes me wonder if they actually notice the exit zone on the minimap at all

 

e.g. Newport Defense, where "defending the harbour" equals camping near the repair ships (of course - why else would they be there ?)

 

e.g. Narai, just like Hermes, escorting the transport ships means trailing behind them. Of course you have to be in the healing circle the entire time, so you can enter the harbour at full HP

(don't get me started on BBs going for the transports, or multiple CLs failing to sink the transports because they died to Farragut torps, or ships going all the way NorthEast to "intercept the CV" and then fail anyway)

 

e.g. Ultimate Frontier, when the Clemson manages to sink one of your BBs, or you lose a BB because the player thought it could solo the CV (forgetting that it's defended by multiple DDs and a CL), or you fail the Op because none of the BBs bothered to help the Aoba (allied bot) with the CLs (enemy bots)

 

 

I play Ops a lot and I could go on like this the entire day - sadly.

In general; wrong ammunition choice, not angling, not knowing where to go or what to do (even though you can check all of it in the loading screen), overextending and thinking it's like Coop ... but instead of "learning moments" we get these idiots who pay more attention to the blame game than the actual game, and complaint threads at the forum that the Ops are too hard / difficult.

 

Regarding teamplay, @Saltface started a Discord server specifically for Ops; if players really are interested in teamplay in Ops they should be able to find it (via Google or via the Wows forum search function), but they don't.

 

I think most players see Ops as "Coop with higher rewards". They don't care for the mission, they don't care to learn - they just want fast and easy XP and Credits.

[Figment]

1 minute ago, lup3s said:

The problem is that they then think the Op is harder / failing because others did not take the potato route and get focused more.

They think the problem is not their idiot tactic, but others not following their idiot tactic - hence they never learn.

Dunning-Kruger will always be an issue. But the learning moment is not just for that player. All those that tried to follow that plan learned it was a bad plan. ;)

[Figment]

Just taking this separately. Some of this can be addressed with UI design.

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Hermes, where it seems like 90% of the playerbase thinks that escorting the BB means trailing several kilometers behind it. And then they complain the Op is difficult to win because of the DDs in the end

Creating a suggested area to be in around the escorted ship on the map would help. Often people lag behind to finish off targets they're slow to kill. You can create incentives to stick with your mark or explain what to do, like exp gains, way point areas with timers etc. 

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Cherry Blossom, where players seem to think they can survive focus fire from 3 IJN CAs and multiple IJN DDs; or they just sit stationary near the CVs, usually full HP inside the healing circle, waiting for the defeat to come 

The healing circles are often too tempting for poor players to stick to. Giving healing areas a timer that activates per ship would give them reason to leave that area too.

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Raptor Rescue, as if the title isn't clear enough, it seems like many players don't realise the main task of this Op is to keep the Raptor alive

Making the escorted ship's health and missions highly visible in your face, rather than on the map or only if you look at it, would give people a better understanding of the mission.

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Killer Whale, going to the exit zone seems too hard for many - makes me wonder if they actually notice the exit zone on the minimap at all

A glowing, pulsing effect with a clearer marker on the exit area and the timer (in same colour) becoming bigger and more in your face as it ticks down would help with reminding people there's something they need to do and understand what it is to do. Maybe add text or sound that failure to reach the exit will diminish their profits and exp gains.

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Newport Defense, where "defending the harbour" equals camping near the repair ships (of course - why else would they be there ?)

Same as above. Temp healing. A lot of people get overwhelmed in Newport by the sheer amount of enemies and lack of coordination. But that's just down to players not cooperating. Would help if people were pointed out however where and when they have to defend any reinforcement support ships.

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Narai, just like Hermes, escorting the transport ships means trailing behind them. Of course you have to be in the healing circle the entire time, so you can enter the harbour at full HP

(don't get me started on BBs going for the transports, or multiple CLs failing to sink the transports because they died to Farragut torps, or ships going all the way NorthEast to "intercept the CV" and then fail anyway)

That's experience for you. BBs can go for the transports if they at least have a high arc to fire over the big ridges later on though. But most the time, sadly this is just people not being able to distribute objectives among the team and thinking they need to do all of it themselves.

3 minutes ago, lup3s said:

e.g. Ultimate Frontier, when the Clemson manages to sink one of your BBs, or you lose a BB because the player thought it could solo the CV (forgetting that it's defended by multiple DDs and a CL), or you fail the Op because none of the BBs bothered to help the Aoba (allied bot) with the CLs (enemy bots)

I would say that the loading screen of each OP could give a run down of the OP in a tutorial type way pre-start.

[Vbeest]

21 minutes ago, Figment said:

Dunning-Kruger will always be an issue. But the learning moment is not just for that player. All those that tried to follow that plan learned it was a bad plan. ;)

 

Yeah, let's involve some heavy theory crafting into this topic. The point is, the OPs after the rework ("random" OPs) make little sense.

[lup3s]

8 minutes ago, Figment said:

Just taking this separately. Some of this can be addressed with UI design.

Creating a suggested area to be in around the escorted ship on the map would help. Often people lag behind to finish off targets they're slow to kill. You can create incentives to stick with your mark or explain what to do, like exp gains, way point areas with timers etc. 

The healing circles are often too tempting for poor players to stick to. Giving healing areas a timer that activates per ship would give them reason to leave that area too.

Making the escorted ship's health and missions highly visible in your face, rather than on the map or only if you look at it, would give people a better understanding of the mission.

A glowing, pulsing effect with a clearer marker on the exit area and the timer (in same colour) becoming bigger and more in your face as it ticks down would help with reminding people there's something they need to do and understand what it is to do. Maybe add text or sound that failure to reach the exit will diminish their profits and exp gains.

Same as above. Temp healing. A lot of people get overwhelmed in Newport by the sheer amount of enemies and lack of coordination. But that's just down to players not cooperating. Would help if people were pointed out however where and when they have to defend any reinforcement support ships.

That's experience for you. BBs can go for the transports if they at least have a high arc to fire over the big ridges later on though. But most the time, sadly this is just people not being able to distribute objectives among the team and thinking they need to do all of it themselves.

 

I think these are some good suggestions, sadly they do indicate a lack of common sense, map awareness, and willingness to learn. 

 

8 minutes ago, Figment said:

I would say that the loading screen of each OP could give a run down of the OP in a tutorial type way pre-start.

 

This may be the best one, I think, a "phase by phase" description of the Op could aid some players in finding a better strategy and tactics for the Operation.

 

A detailed tutorial may be difficult to make, since (usually) your play differs depending on the ship you took.

[Bland_42]

13 minuti fa, Figment ha scritto:

Making the escorted ship's health and missions highly visible in your face, rather than on the map or only if you look at it, would give people a better understanding of the mission.

 

I say it only about Raptor Rescue, but... the CV health is shown at the screen top (screenshot found online, not mine).

 

Spoiler

 

However I'm sadly convinced that people simply don't care about some little "details".

The other day, after being killed while protecting the CV (other players running around the map) I wrote in chat what would happen in the next minutes, to give them time to react... you think that someone dared to use those inputs?

[lup3s]

6 minutes ago, Vbeest said:

Yeah, let's involve some heavy theory crafting into this topic. The point is, the OPs after the rework ("random" OPs) make little sense.

 

What do you mean with "Ops after the rework make little sense" ?

 

To me it makes little sense how bad many players are in Ops  

[Figment]

5 minutes ago, Bland_42 said:

 

I say it only about Raptor Rescue, but... the CV health is shown at the screen top (screenshot found online, not mine).

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

However I'm sadly convinced that people simply don't care about some little "details".

The other day, after being killed while protecting the CV (other players running around the map) I wrote in chat what would happen in the next minutes, to give them time to react... you think that someone dared to use those inputs?

Yeah, but that UI design is fairly subtle and minimalist. Which is fine for good players, but a lot of players will simply ignore it. Warnings that the CV is under attack with big triangles and all (as default setting), might just be the needed norm.

[Figment]

18 minutes ago, lup3s said:

I think these are some good suggestions, sadly they do indicate a lack of common sense, map awareness, and willingness to learn. 

Dunning-Kruger is strong with humans. You can't outdesign stupidity and ego at all times, but you can mitigate it.

 

Might help if post-match they're told how their performance was compared to the average and some general tips on how to improve in that OP based on some things their stats or route shows they did wrong (like an overlap with average routes from succesful campaigns by others, compared to the route they followed with that class of ship).

18 minutes ago, lup3s said:

This may be the best one, I think, a "phase by phase" description of the Op could aid some players in finding a better strategy and tactics for the Operation.

 

A detailed tutorial may be difficult to make, since (usually) your play differs depending on the ship you took.

There'd have to be multiple tutorials (or at least suggestions what to do during each phase) for ship classes, but the phases can be easily done with the existing sliding tool tips that show generalized information.

[Vbeest]

23 minutes ago, lup3s said:

 

What do you mean with "Ops after the rework make little sense" ?

 

To me it makes little sense how bad many players are in Ops  

 

Yes, this is the reason why there are so many bad players there now. Most good ones don't play the ops anymore. I ground several lines in OPs through holidays and soon switched to randoms - honestly, it's really easier and far more enjoyable to progress in the hell of random games than in it in OPs.

[Panocek]

3 hours ago, Figment said:

Which is the actual issue: people don't know the OPs, don't understand the objectives (localization might solve this in part) and don't cooperate (rather they'll whine at one another) and while many don't understand their ships and basic mechanics, a lot more will be bringing them into OPs and Coop to try and grind exp for those ships and some missions and retrain captains to basic levels for Randoms and Ranked.

Its not so much case of "not knowing the Operation" as most people doesn't care whether there are objectives, but the same people also notice their ships melting fast, so they do their best to not press W key and die when doing so

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

Similar issue... state of current "Brawl" 5 vs. 5 Tier X cruisers... my last 4 matches...

 

 

 

 

 

 

The playerbase is simply terribad... beyond salvation I am afraid...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Ymustihaveaname]

1 hour ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

state of current "Brawl" 5 vs. 5 Tier X cruisers

Wow maybe I should drop not in a div of three and get different MM.... (my last night teams for the 7 game I played were solid average typhoon/storm players with a couple of hurricane divs)

 

We hit one really good 70% WR triple Salem div that schooled us hard....

[ColonelPete]

6 hours ago, Figment said:

I have literally never brought the wrong ship to an OP... For you can literally always compensate with skill, OP experience and teamwork to devise a strategy that focuses on your strengths and mitigates your weaknesses...

One can make any ship work, even a Tier I ship, but that is not the point.

Compensation costs efficiency, unless you perform the same in a Tier VI torpboat as in a Tier ViII BB.

 

Some ships perform differently in the different Operations and some ships perform weaker than others.

When the team has your back, it does not matter what you sail, one could even win in a Tier I ship. With the current playerbase this is rarely the case and it is more probable that one has to compensate for one or more teammates. The weaker your selected ship, the weaker your capacity for compensation.

[Figment]

29 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

One can make any ship work, even a Tier I ship, but that is not the point.

Compensation costs efficiency, unless you perform the same in a Tier VI torpboat as in a Tier ViII BB.

That's not the best comparison, since the composition of enemy ships is determined by the group of ships that enters the OP. A Tier 8 BB will force higher tier targets if it's in the same grouping instead of a T6. That T6 can carry even if it faces T8 opponents. It doesn't even mean it has to take on the heaviest opponents, if it can help out with lighter targets, scouting, torping / fires or simply go after minor objectives so that the heavier targets can be focused more easily by your higher tiers, the tier difference may not matter at all. Besides, your higher tiers will be facing more lower tiers and that might give those bad players an edge over their computer opponents while you as experienced player deal with the heavier targets meant for them.

 

Regardless, any ship I've used ends up near the top end at the end of the match. Like with class differences the contribution style will differ (damage, spot damage, etc). As such it doesn't really matter to me.

 

Compensation means it's possible to use that ship in combat. Efficiency is not the standard by which you measure whether or not you can actually use a ship in that. This isn't Clan Wars and even there people are oddly narrowminded in how they opt for Min-Maxing with certain units that often has more to do with trying to get the most flexible jack of all trades and one size fits all strategy that can be pressed onto whoever participates, than it is with picking a combination of ships that fit in the most natural playstyles of the people they have available at the time. Which is subsequently copied by everyone else when it appears to work.

Quote

Some ships perform differently in the different Operations and some ships perform weaker than others.

When the team has your back, it does not matter what you sail, one could even win in a Tier I ship. With the current playerbase this is rarely the case and it is more probable that one has to compensate for one or more teammates. The weaker your selected ship, the weaker your capacity for compensation.

Weaker performance tends to rely on how you play with most ships. Situationally certain ships might be better at certain roles, like playing damage farmer or brawler. But then, the missions are designed such that those roles are not avoidable and replaceable by roles and executions of said roles, that suit your "weak" ship better. You don't put a Monarch in the same forward position as a Bismarck after all either.

[ColonelPete]

48 minutes ago, Figment said:

You don't put a Monarch in the same forward position as a Bismarck after all either.

That is why an Operation gets harder when you need a ship in a forward position, but your team has only Monarchs or even weaker BB.

[Figment]

5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That is why an Operation gets harder when you need a ship in a forward position, but your team has only Monarchs or even weaker BB.

But you don't NEED to play it as if you had a Bismarck is my point. If you have just Monarchs you play it... as if you only have Monarchs and just beat the crap out of the enemies with HE without getting into the same brawling situation...

 

 

Why would you insist on having a ship in such a forward position when you don't need to and don't have the ships perfectly suited to do that? To me it sounds like you figured out one strategy for an OP and decided this is how it's supposed to be played when you can just as well play it in 20 different ways.

[ColonelPete]

13 minutes ago, Figment said:

But you don't NEED to play it as if you had a Bismarck is my point. If you have just Monarchs you play it... as if you only have Monarchs and just beat the crap out of the enemies with HE without getting into the same brawling situation...

 

 

Why would you insist on having a ship in such a forward position when you don't need to and don't have the ships perfectly suited to do that? To me it sounds like you figured out one strategy for an OP and decided this is how it's supposed to be played when you can just as well play it in 20 different ways.

You need one ship in the forward position. The whole team cannot be second line, that does not work.

 

[Bland_42]

12 minuti fa, Figment ha scritto:

But you don't NEED to play it as if you had a Bismarck is my point. If you have just Monarchs you play it... as if you only have Monarchs and just beat the crap out of the enemies with HE without getting into the same brawling situation...

True if you can do it.

But if you need to compensate the lack of teamplay, then even your weak BB (or worst, your cruiser) need to tank, and that's a sub-optimal situation (to not say else).

[Figment]

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

You need one ship in the forward position. The whole team cannot be second line, that does not work.

 

Yeah. DDs. Though British BBs have been used by me as scout what with ~12km detection. You don't need a brawling BB at all times or even at all. Other BBs can be a bit further back and be just as effective if not more.

3 hours ago, Bland_42 said:

True if you can do it.

But if you need to compensate the lack of teamplay, then even your weak BB (or worst, your cruiser) need to tank, and that's a sub-optimal situation (to not say else).

Even if your allies don't try to work with you, you can work with them. To a point. But if they deserve to lose, they should lose. That's not an actual problem with the game, but with the players. And that includes everyone in the team, including yourself.