Advice on Destroyers

[Hirohito]

There are no DDs from the tech tree lines that are similar to those two, so it's not really possible to advise you to a line that will shoehorn you into the playstyles they fill.

Stay away from the IJN torp line that many here advised you to, they are nothing remotely similar to Black or Groningen and will teach you the wrong playstyle.
These are torp boats with high skills floors, that teach you to use concealment to outspot an enemy DD and have your team deal with it for you, lead targets correctly with torps (because you rely so heavy on them), where you only really resort to guns when forced, when about to go dark or for finishing off low hp targets.
If your goal is to learn how to play Black and Groningen, stay away becayse they offer nothing remotely similar in terms of playstyle.
It would be somewhat similar to getting Stalingrad, and picking up the RN CL line to "get good with cruisers before you play Stalingrad".
Just no, don't do it.

I'm not saying IJN torp boats (or RN CLs for that matter) are bad, but they are not remotely similar and it will wreak all sorts of havoc when you transition to Groningen and Black.

The closest I can think of is the IJN gunboat line because they are smoke farmers as well (you can of course debate the smoke farming that Black will be doing, but I think it's a somewhat fair comparison).

But since you specify that you will be playing until T8, you will only get minimal practice with Akizuki that is the gunboat style you want to be practicing.
The rest of the IJN gunboat line are unfortunately torp boats up until T7, so I'd stay away from that unless you intend to practice Akizuki a lot.

Other than that, the USN line is decent because it will teach you how to use USN smokes (that Black and Groningen get), as well as relying more on guns with high dpm and poor shell ballistics, than on torps.

The last line that might be relevant is the German line.
That being said, the hydro plays you can do with them up until T8 (when Z-23 gets 5km hydro, like Groningen) are not worth mentioning, because 4km hydro is pretty damn weak for offensive purposes combined with smoke.
Note that German DDs are pretty awful to smoke farm with, both due to low HE dpm (even if high pen) and due to having the worst smokes in the game.
That being said, if you can do reasonably well in German DDs up until T8, you will probably be pleasantly surprised to find that your capabilities skyrocket when switching to Black or Groningen.
 

[COPlUM]

Royal navy DDs are the easiest to learn DDs. They turn on a dime, they outspot what they can't outgun, they outgun what they can't outspot, they outspot and outgun many DDs. They come with long duration hydro so they rarely eat a derp torpedo while screening torps for their team. They also come with the best AA in the game, the only AA that does anything, a smoke you can spam, just spam it every time the CV comes for you, after 2 or 3 times the CV will just ignore you because CV players expect free kills and you're not giving him one. The fast short smoke doubles as a panic button when you screw up and the entire line is either good or very good ships, it's one of the few lines with 0 trash boats in it. They're also the best performing DDs against submarines. They are not the best at anything in particular (other than killing subs) but they are overall strong and very forgiving.

When you're comfy in mid tier UK RN destroyers you can play Groningen and Black. Your job in Groningen is be a selfish [edited] and farm, unless you see a smoked up DD, then you drive into it with hydro. Your job in Black is genocide other destroyers and control objectives. Black & Groningen are opposites in a way, Groningen is 90% farming and 10% contesting, Black is 10% farming and 90% contesting.

Play British DDs to learn, they are destroyers with trainer-wheels.
Focus on objectives and killing other DDs when you play Black.
Focus on farming like a jackass when you play Groningen.

[arttuperkunas]

16 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

This..

IJN line is a bit more forgiving as you have a bigger stelth torp range than the others lines and torps pack a descent punch too.

I don't really agree. IJN torp line is not particularly forgiving for a new player. You might not get outspotted, but it's easy to be irrelevant if you don't know how to really leverage the concealment and torp power, and use your guns when the situation calls for it. RN line is far easier to play, as Copium ably summarised.

 

1 hour ago, COPlUM said:

stuff

[Bear__Necessities]

On 12/12/2022 at 12:04 PM, Northern_Nightowl said:

I do not quite get the catch why everyone is telling that the USN DD line is good for learning destroyer work. I also followed this thinking, but failed, not getting the way to employ my armaments effectively. The concealment, larger than your torpedo range, hampered me too much.

That's the point in learning that line 1st. You learn HOW to get past certain handicaps and learn about playing to a ships strength. It's easy to play IJN, you stay hidden and hope for torps. That leave a whole lot out of how to become good in DD's. Nicholas, Farragut and Mahan are all really powerful DD's regardless of their conceal not being as "good" or torps being as long range.  

 

But each to their own. o7 

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 5 Stunden, COPlUM sagte:

They also come with the best AA in the game, the only AA that does anything,...

The late ones, maybe. The early ones have some of the worst AA in the game. And the ones in between, while better, are still mostly crap. Especially in comparison to the USN or European DDs.

[Northern_Nightowl]

The TO wrote:

Am 12.12.2022 um 00:16, Pururut sagte:

I don't want to learn DD play from scratch at tier 9 so the forum is welcome to recommend tech tree lines up to tier 8 with the goal of getting me into the mind set necessary for the mentioned ships. [USS Black, Groningen]

So I assume that he is a player without any destroyer captains and without previous DD experience. So, I thought about ship lines that neither have a (own opinion) steep learning curve and neither need a high point captain to perform satisfactorily and that are able to provide a DD compatible mindset, as asked (cf. "learning from scratch").

 

Then, you wrote:

Vor 1 Stunde, Bear__Necessities sagte:

That's the point in learning that line [US DD] 1st. You learn HOW to get past certain handicaps and learn about playing to a ships strength. It's easy to play IJN, you stay hidden and hope for torps. That leave a whole lot out of how to become good in DD's. Nicholas, Farragut and Mahan are all really powerful DD's regardless of their conceal not being as "good" or torps being as long range.  

 

But each to their own. o7 

So, let me ask: what is "being good in DD" for you? Cap contesting to assist in winning? Spotting in order to do team work? Something else, like assaulting solo targets?

 

Let assume that you'll have 3 ships at your disposal, Nicholas, T-22 and Minekaze or Mutsuki. For the sake of argument, let us assume a T5 brawl on Ocean at 1 vs. 1. There, I think that the Nicholas, being outspotted by the other ships, is at a disadvantage. The German and the Japanese can simply stay outside of their detection ranges and use torpedoes. 

 

Using islands for ambushes, needed for Nicholas, is IMHO a skill that's to be separated from DD gameplay, as you need it also in CL and radar ships. It entails some understanding of probable movements of your foes.

 

Learning is really possibly easier when you're able to divide needed knowledge in smaller parts that are better for you to assimilate. For DD, that would be positioning, knowledge of spotting/detection ranges of your adversaries, the psychology of enemy's reaction to your presence and available allied and enemy gimmicks (hydro, radar, RPF skill).

 

Back to the TO's question.

For learning gimmicks, there are mods easily available (e.g. Aslain pack, ship symbols with hydro and radar identifiers). These mods also provide you with dynamic sights and an information display of "target speed at the crosshair" that makes the need to train how to lead the arcing slow US shells somewhat moot.

I then still maintain that the IJN line is something good to learn general DD gameplay: reconnaissance, keeping target spotted for allies, capping. The ships will work also with a low pointer for commander and still provide you with learnable feedback, out of their virtue of good stealth, fragility (don't get shot at!) and potent torpedoes. They will teach you positioning and "red" psychology, that's to say how to aim into turning ships to get hits, because you'll get the knack to estimate your torpedo trajectory without relying too heavily on the aiming indicator and catch a guy that was turning. At the same time, you more often than not have the chance to learn and train for a longer time as you're not sunk outright in your US DD that was seen from afar.

 

When you have acquired such a mindset of staying stealthy, spotting, attacking with torpedoes and a knowledge what your foes do have for gimmicks, you may modify it according to the ship you'll drive at the moment. Remember, a single torpedo makes roundabout 5k to 15k damage on a ship (lower number: EU and Italian fishes, higher number: IJN). To get the same amount of damage with destroyer shells, you need at least 15 penetrating(!) HE hits to get where a torpedo or Europeans make gets you single handedly, accordingly more to get the equivalent of an IJN fish hit. So, gunnery oriented DD indeed need a modification of your torpedo oriented gameplay, but I'd say that the way from stealthy torpedo work towards gun usages is easier than the other way round.

 

This is why I still have issues with those recommendations of US, EU, RN and Pan-Asia ships for learning DD work.

Most importantly, neither may do well with any commander below 10 points, as the skill "Concealment expert" will surely be mandatory, to enhance the ability to disengage.

- US DD: while, according to our WoWS wiki, they are on the rather sturdy side for DD as they are said to have more HP than other ships of equivalent tier, they suffer from imperatively being seen while attacking (gun bloom and short ranged torpedoes). Trying to learn something on them is likely to be frustrating.

- EU DD: they do not have smoke, so you can only use your speed boost to disengage when needed. Their heal, while being the speciality of EU ships, is not to be relied upon when learning DD work, it's not enough to remedy to your inevitable mistakes. Furthermore, the guns are not the most potent out there and torpedoes are lacking in numbers (few tubes) and potency. They are fast, though. (Personal opinion: I want to like these ships, but they do not make it easy for me. While I indeed managed one of my few Krakens in a T6 Västerås, by getting lucky in hitting ships that were engaged by several allies also, my own norm is something like 0 or 1 kill and less than 20k damage, even in T9 Östergötland with a 14 pointer, which is normally regarded as one of the stronger tech tree DD).

- RN DD: they could be in theory a great learning mount, as they are equipped with nice tools: potent torpedoes, potent guns, hydro later on and "getaway smokes" (short acting but fast reloading and more available). But they are IMHO neutered as teachers because their torpedoes have abysmal long reloading times (roundabout 1,5 to 2 times the IJN and US times) and they are lacking speed (no speed boost) to disengage when you as DD student did put yourself in a bad posture and need escaping. The premium (48.000 coal) T6 Gallant that I named previously as learning tool may address some of these shortcomings.

- Pan-Asia DD: they are IMHO too much of a Potpourri to make for a good learning line. T5 and T6 are ships with Russian flavour, T7 is something with a British touch, but for the better. You should maybe better look at them when you feel confident about DD work. That said, the Gadjah Mahda (T7) made itself one of my favourite DD, it's nimble and stealthy, the 360° rotatable turret makes for pleasant gunnery in fights versus other DD, the deep-water torpedoes (only able to hit ships in cruiser size upwards, no DD) are good.

 

I already said why I think of the IJN lines as good tools for learning DD "from scratch". You may note that I didn't comment on another line, the German DD line leading to the Z-52.

 

These ships are middle of the pack or a bit worse than other DD in most single aspects: guns, torpedoes, stealth, manoeuvrability. But the combination of this "underwhelmingness" IMHO makes for them being good tools for learning. You're not getting used to superior characteristics and you learn how to cope with mediocrity. These ships are also on the sturdier side in their tier lineups, they can use their torpedoes from stealth (said torpedoes are also neither remarkably fast nor slow, neither high damaging nor simple stings and neither plentiful nor scarce or fast nor slow loading), they have hydro to raise your awareness about the enemy's whereabouts around islands and in smoke clouds, they have speed boosts and smokes that can be used for escaping and farming from within the cloud. They are not particularly nimble, so you're forced to train your situational awareness too.

 

I also maintain that the learning curve in IJN and German DD could be felt as being not as steep as with other lines, so there should be less of a frustration potential than with, especially, the US line.

 

All of the above stems from my own gameplay experiences in DD. I do have the US DD up to the Gearing, with my torpedo skilled Fletcher is also one of my favourite DD to drive. I grinded the RN DD up to the Daring, where Lightning, Jutland and Daring, and to a lesser degree, Jervis, are enjoyable (as long as those are captained with at least a 10 pointer). I take the "classic" Germans (where I also have the Z-52) out sometimes, but they more often than not lose the contest to the IJN, where I grew a strong liking for the Shimakaze.

 

Regards, Nightowl 

[Bear__Necessities]

19 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

what is "being good in DD"

Everything. That's the short answer. DD's have the highest class influence bar CV's. And need to be adaptable to any change in a game. You have to do almost everything for yourself, in the most selfish play style possible, to actually be useful to a team. 

 

19 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

 

Let assume that you'll have 3 ships at your disposal, Nicholas, T-22 and Minekaze or Mutsuki. For the sake of argument, let us assume a T5 brawl on Ocean at 1 vs. 1. There, I think that the Nicholas, being outspotted by the other ships, is at a disadvantage. The German and the Japanese can simply stay outside of their detection ranges and use torpedoes. 

I'll take the Nicholas over all of them because it has the most sustain and versatility out of the 3. 

 

19 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

Using islands for ambushes, needed for Nicholas, is IMHO a skill that's to be separated from DD gameplay

Nope. That's a KEY part of ALL DD gameplay. Being able to use the map environment applies to all classes and ships. 

 

USN and RN DD lines are the most user friendly lines to start. They have all the tools and few drawbacks across their entire lines respectively. 

 

I'm speaking from 1000's, I mean 1000's of DD games across all the lines now in this game and a high level of proficiency in them. Through learning the hard way through them all. 

 

07

[Hirohito]

51 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

When you have acquired such a mindset of staying stealthy, spotting, attacking with torpedoes and a knowledge what your foes do have for gimmicks, you may modify it according to the ship you'll drive at the moment. Remember, a single torpedo makes roundabout 5k to 15k damage on a ship

Which is completely irrelevant, because "staying stealthy, spotting and attacking with torps" is about as far from what a Black and especially Groningen want to do to begin with.
Heck, Groningen doesn't even have torpedoes, so what on earth would proficient outspotting and torp prediction teach him when playing a boat that has generally poor concealment and that farms from smokes with guns only?

 

53 minutes ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

Using islands for ambushes, needed for Nicholas, is IMHO a skill that's to be separated from DD gameplay, as you need it also in CL and radar ships. It entails some understanding of probable movements of your foes.

That is a skill that you need to learn in any ship.
In any ship that is trying to contest caps (which especially Black, but also Groningen do), you want to get proficient in playing with islands.

The better you play around islands, the better you'll do in Black and Groningen, because it means you can leverage their gimmicks even harder.
Playing an IJN boat teaches you to stay in the open to leverage superior concealment, which is the last thing you want to do in these two (unless setting a radar trap, but that's a different thing).

[Northern_Nightowl]

Vor 1 Stunde, Hirohito sagte:

Which is completely irrelevant, because "staying stealthy, spotting and attacking with torps" is about as far from what a Black and especially Groningen want to do to begin with.
Heck, Groningen doesn't even have torpedoes, so what on earth would proficient outspotting and torp prediction teach him when playing a boat that has generally poor concealment and that farms from smokes with guns only?

I'm assuming that managing with "classic" DD will build up a solid knowledge base upon which variants can be mounted. The way "classics" aka torpedo boats as basics and then specialities as radar DD or smoke farmers is easier to learn and assimilate than the other way round, I think.

Remember, the TO wrote about wanting to learn from scratch! Am I wrong in thinking that gunboating or radar usage is figuratively as far from "DD's first steps" as a SAT / Abitur / Baccalauréat / A-level is from the primary school classes?

 

Regards, Nightowl

[OldPappy]

On 12/12/2022 at 1:08 AM, tocqueville8 said:

USN for sure.

 

They share the same smokes and at Tier 5-7 they have the best DPM in tier (Benson is dethroned by Akizuki, but she's still a nasty knife-fighter), with few to no radars to worry about. As long as they angle against enemy torps, they can farm those charging enemies like pros. The Mahan's and Benson's slow-a** fish might also teach you how to use the Black's.

 

They're also quite strong:

 

I should like to attend your US dd school!

[OldPappy]

22 hours ago, Hirohito said:

There are no DDs from the tech tree lines that are similar to those two, so it's not really possible to advise you to a line that will shoehorn you into the playstyles they fill.

Stay away from the IJN torp line that many here advised you to, they are nothing remotely similar to Black or Groningen and will teach you the wrong playstyle.
These are torp boats with high skills floors, that teach you to use concealment to outspot an enemy DD and have your team deal with it for you, lead targets correctly with torps (because you rely so heavy on them), where you only really resort to guns when forced, when about to go dark or for finishing off low hp targets.
If your goal is to learn how to play Black and Groningen, stay away becayse they offer nothing remotely similar in terms of playstyle.
It would be somewhat similar to getting Stalingrad, and picking up the RN CL line to "get good with cruisers before you play Stalingrad".
Just no, don't do it.

I'm not saying IJN torp boats (or RN CLs for that matter) are bad, but they are not remotely similar and it will wreak all sorts of havoc when you transition to Groningen and Black.

The closest I can think of is the IJN gunboat line because they are smoke farmers as well (you can of course debate the smoke farming that Black will be doing, but I think it's a somewhat fair comparison).

But since you specify that you will be playing until T8, you will only get minimal practice with Akizuki that is the gunboat style you want to be practicing.
The rest of the IJN gunboat line are unfortunately torp boats up until T7, so I'd stay away from that unless you intend to practice Akizuki a lot.

Other than that, the USN line is decent because it will teach you how to use USN smokes (that Black and Groningen get), as well as relying more on guns with high dpm and poor shell ballistics, than on torps.

The last line that might be relevant is the German line.
That being said, the hydro plays you can do with them up until T8 (when Z-23 gets 5km hydro, like Groningen) are not worth mentioning, because 4km hydro is pretty damn weak for offensive purposes combined with smoke.
Note that German DDs are pretty awful to smoke farm with, both due to low HE dpm (even if high pen) and due to having the worst smokes in the game.
That being said, if you can do reasonably well in German DDs up until T8, you will probably be pleasantly surprised to find that your capabilities skyrocket when switching to Black or Groningen.
 

I was going to suggest and recommend the KM dd line as well much for the same reasons. Especially for Groningen. Getting used to the higher than average detection range and using smoke/hydro. And as you say, if he can farm well in KM dds then the Black is a monster..