Someone explains to me the logic behind the credits earning and expenditure

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

8 hours ago, Silfuin said:

what makes you sure I don't already have at least a "vague understanding" of game mechanics and playstyles?

Your win rate. If you just don't look at the minimap, you still should be better than that.

I propose you post four replays, not cherrypicked, just randomly pulled out of the replays folder and we can discuss them on what could be done better.

[Ymustihaveaname]

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

Ability to read maps and "flow of battle" is extremely difficult one, both to quantify and to learn. I guess best attempt at that would be saving replays of battles you think you've did bad, or good and analyzing them with cool head what went wrong, what went good. Forum dwellers also can help when they have something to look at, otherwise not knowing anything how you play at best you're going to get generic advices.

One thing that would help hugely IMO is being able to look at replays easily in game, even just look at say the last 5 mins of the last battle to work out how you died, without all the overload of actually playing it? I simply doubt 95% of players use the replay function, I know that I (started 2020 so new ish but 11,000 games & 57% wr so not great but somewhat above average?) have barely used it apart from for CBs and Kots training with others that effectively made me do it.

[Silfuin]

5 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Your win rate. If you just don't look at the minimap, you still should be better than that.

I propose you post four replays, not cherrypicked, just randomly pulled out of the replays folder and we can discuss them on what could be done better.

That sounds great!
Here they are.
Completely random chosen.

20221216_195531_PJSD105-Mutsuki_01_solomon_islands.wowsreplay

20221216_211456_PJSD108-Akizuki_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

20221217_014508_PASC106-Pensacola-1944_05_Ring.wowsreplay

20221217_041657_PBSD110-Daring_23_Shards.wowsreplay

 

I add a fifth because Pensacola is an attempt to see how I enjoy cruisers, with which I don't really have much experience.

20221217_035736_PFSD109-Mogador_54_Faroe.wowsreplay

[Profilus]

16 hours ago, Silfuin said:

I never refused to watch training videos or read guides, done that for all the ships I use.

Do you just watch those vids for entertainment while you eat or do you try to understand WHY something is done in those vids?

16 hours ago, Silfuin said:

what makes you sure I don't already have at least a "vague understanding" of game mechanics and playstyles?
I think I have

You dont. In your Mutsuki replay you tried to smoke up BB in a map corner when you were surrounded without hope for escape. What was the point of this smoke in your mind?

In Akizuki replay, you torped BB, used torpedo reload booster, BB turned broadside and you never used those torps.

Also in at least 2 replays i watched, you tried to shoot submarine in 50m depth with your guns.

 

To me, you look like a guy who plays this game just to hear guns go BOOM! You try to use your consumables for your favor, but since you havent bothered to pick up why and when they are effective you just sometimes get lucky when you use them in meaningful way.

[Silfuin]

5 hours ago, Profilus said:

Do you just watch those vids for entertainment while you eat or do you try to understand WHY something is done in those vids?

You dont. In your Mutsuki replay you tried to smoke up BB in a map corner when you were surrounded without hope for escape. What was the point of this smoke in your mind?

In Akizuki replay, you torped BB, used torpedo reload booster, BB turned broadside and you never used those torps.

Also in at least 2 replays i watched, you tried to shoot submarine in 50m depth with your guns.

 

To me, you look like a guy who plays this game just to hear guns go BOOM! You try to use your consumables for your favor, but since you havent bothered to pick up why and when they are effective you just sometimes get lucky when you use them in meaningful way.

Do you mean to just mock me or you also want to help?
I would expect that if you wanna help besides telling me what I did wrong (which I assume isn't just a smoke with no purpose when situation was already compromised or not firing torps in one instance) you explain to me what I should have done.

For example after this sentence:

5 hours ago, Profilus said:

you havent bothered to pick up why and when they are effective

I would expect that you explain to me why and when they are effective.

[Profilus]

28 minutes ago, Silfuin said:

Do you mean to just mock me or you also want to help?
I would expect that if you wanna help besides telling me what I did wrong

Telling you what you did wrong is not mocking(no need to be so touchy).

 

29 minutes ago, Silfuin said:

(which I assume isn't just a smoke with no purpose when situation was already compromised or not firing torps in one instance) you explain to me what I should have done.

The way i usually play you had 2 options in Mutsuki game in corner:

1) Use the smoke the way that BB will spot for you(until he is alive, he was dead anyway soon) and gun down enemy DD.

2) Just sail out of corner unspotted to your other allies(and use smoke to get there if enemy DD is faster).

33 minutes ago, Silfuin said:

I would expect that you explain to me why and when they are effective.

Since this would be a long typing im not gonna go further than above because you have shown quite unwillingness to learn in this topic But next time you watch a video of someone getting amazing game in some ship, try to understand why they were where they were and why they did the things they did.

PS: and never give smoke to totally random BB who you dont know will use it (correctly).

[Silfuin]

17 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Telling you what you did wrong is not mocking(no need to be so touchy).

no, mocking up was the part with "you look like a guy who plays this game just to hear guns go BOOM!", but I may have misunderstood.
No problem.

 

17 minutes ago, Profilus said:

you have shown quite unwillingness to learn in this topic

Look, after your post I was reviewing the games you mentioned to see the parts you described and try to recall what were my thought processes so I could answer your questions.

 

Here are the answers:

In Mutsuki I realized we were trapped only at that moment (not looking the minimap?), so I used smoke to allow BB to survive a bit longer and maybe kill the DD which was cutting our retreat.
I considered I could not gun it down not even in smoke, maybe I was wrong.
Wasn't the real mistake however even before that, when we overextended instead of capping and retreat?
In Akizuki I used reload booster to have torps if BB charged me, then she went the other side and it didn't occur to me to use the torps.

With subs I never know what to do so when I see them I shoot them, also induced by other people shooting them. Now after your comment I think that when I see only the white oval shape they are too deep to use guns.
 

Can you tell me when or how I showed unwillingness to learn?

[Profilus]

2 hours ago, Silfuin said:

I would expect that you explain to me why and when they are effective.

 

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

so I used smoke to allow BB to survive a bit longer

Most if not all BB-s have detection in/behind smoke 15km after shooting. So it was completely useless smoke unless BB wont shoot(which you cant expect from totally random guy). And even if he doesnt shoot in this situation you would still keep him alive only until your smoke disappears. But what would be the benefit of that to you or your team???

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

In Akizuki I used reload booster to have torps if BB charged me, then she went the other side and it didn't occur to me to use the torps.

If you use that consumable, you launch torps, otherwise its wasted consumable.

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

With subs I never know what to do so when I see them I shoot them, also induced by other people shooting them. Now after your comment I think that when I see only the white oval shape they are too deep to use guns.

There are 2 numbers under nametag of sub, upper is range of you and below that is their depth.

 

 

 

Now please give me the list of all BB-s and DD-s that have hydro consumable at tiers 8-10&superships(since you claim that playing T10 doesnt give you disadvantages). And also a list of ships that have radars(same tiers).

[Silfuin]

First of all thanks for taking the time to watch my replays and writing in here.
Much appreciated.
I misunderstood the tone of your first reply, sorry about that.

 

58 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Most if not all BB-s have detection in/behind smoke 15km after shooting. So it was completely useless smoke unless BB wont shoot(which you cant expect from totally random guy). And even if he doesnt shoot in this situation you would still keep him alive only until your smoke disappears. But what would be the benefit of that to you or your team???

Got it. Didn't know that about BBS.

 

58 minutes ago, Profilus said:

If you use that consumable, you launch torps, otherwise its wasted consumable.

Ok.

 

58 minutes ago, Profilus said:

There are 2 numbers under nametag of sub, upper is range of you and below that is their depth.

Will check it out.
When you see the hull shape in red are they hittable with guns?
Or it means just that they have been spotted?

 

58 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Now please give me the list of all BB-s and DD-s that have hydro consumable at tiers 8-10&superships(since you claim that playing T10 doesnt give you disadvantages). And also a list of ships that have radars(same tiers).

Hydro:

for BBs: Bismarck, Odin, Zieten and all german BBs in tier IX to superships except Mecklenburg
For DDs: All german DDs in tiers VII and IX except G.J. Maerker, F. Schulz, ZF-6, Z-44 and then Loyang, Siliwangi, HArekaze, Friesland/Groningen, Haida, Huron, Vampire II and F. Sherman.
Radars ships tiers VII-XI : .... a lot, I get these informations from here: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables/expanded#Surveillance_Radar , is it correctly updated or there are more?

 

But when did I claim that playing T10 doesn't give me disadvantage?
 

 

[Profilus]

7 hours ago, Silfuin said:

 

But when did I claim that playing T10 doesn't give me disadvantage?

 

On 12/15/2022 at 10:40 PM, Silfuin said:

No to mention the issue that lesser players, who most probably have just a handful of skilled captains, would have to keep their best captains on less fun and less powerful ships ... only to be frequently uptiered (which when you are not a super player sucks).

 

On 12/16/2022 at 10:04 PM, Silfuin said:

I just remembered why I wanted to play high tier ships ... just finished a bunch of battles with tier 7 ships ... always paired against tier 9 ships, radars, planes ...
Yes, I can play passive and stay back ... which is evidently unfun, uneffective (because you don't accomplish anything), unhelpful to your teammates and draws a lot of bad comments and anger from them as well.
Not a good experience overall.

 

On 12/17/2022 at 2:39 AM, Silfuin said:

So far midtiers have been more frustrating than high tiers because of planes and being uptiered.

 

 

8 hours ago, Silfuin said:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables/expanded#Surveillance_Radar , is it correctly updated or there are more? 

I really dont know, im at point where im not afraid of radars that much anymore

Next thing when you go to battle with DD is to find out which DD-s have better concealment than yours. Then when battle starts compare enemy lineup with these lists and adapt your playstyle accordingly for this battle.

After all that, i would say you have done DD homework basics. This should keep you alive only against stupid mistakes btw, it wont make you a scared enemy yet.

[tocqueville8]

About the Daring replay:

1. going nose-in for the A cap on Shards is risky: you get funnelled into it by the islands and have a hard time escaping. Given the enemy team had at least 1 radar on that flank (the Puerto Rico), that was a bad move
2. you were actually radared twice, with a small pause in between, which suggests the Yueyang also had radar: you should've told that to your teammates, for their benefit
3. no point in not shooting the Schlieffen once she charged you inside her hydro range.

[Silfuin]

4 hours ago, Profilus said:

Next thing when you go to battle with DD is to find out which DD-s have better concealment than yours

What I normally do is hover on the other DDs in the initial screen to check, is that what you mean?
I also try to stay just on the edge of enemy radar ships, so that when they use radar I can disengage quickly (sometimes I fail to it though ...)
Can you elaborate a bit more on why you are not afraid of radars anymore? is it because your positioning make it irrelevant if you are seen or not? Maybe covering yourself behind islands or something like that?

 

I get what you mean about tier X still having to contend with radars and planes, but at least they are not uptiered ... well ... they are now with superships so you're mostly right, but at least just by 1.

 

1 hour ago, tocqueville8 said:

• going nose-in for the A cap on Shards is risky: you get funnelled into it by the islands and have a hard time escaping. Given the enemy team had at least 1 radar on that flank (the Puerto Rico), that was a bad move
• you were actually radared twice, with a small pause in between, which suggests the Yueyang also had radar: you should've told that to your teammates, for their benefit
• no point in not shooting the Schlieffen once she charged you with hydro on.

Thanks for the advice.
So, basically if I understand correctly, when you cap with a DD you should always have an easy way out right?
Would it be ok to go into that cap in reverse?
That's what I used to do, but it was so slow to turn and revers ethat I mostly stopped doing it.
 

One other thing I am very unsure in Daring or any other DD with good knife fighting capability is if I should engage other DDs when I meet them at the start of the game.
When I did it usually resulted in losing a good chunk of health and being forced to play very passive the rest of the game (if I survive, which not always happens), which leads me to believe it is not a good thing to do.
However, it also results in the opponent losing a cap and possibly a DD, which is bad for them.
So what would it be? Engage or disengage? I guess it also depends on the situation, but just to have a basic scheme to follow ...

[tocqueville8]

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

So, basically if I understand correctly, when you cap with a DD you should always have an easy way out right?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

 Would it be ok to go into that cap in reverse?

 

Not in that game: lots of enemies were coming, some of them with radar (the cap is small: radar covers all of it), and it's impossible to do the hook maneuver (go in, turn out, stay stern-in) through such small an opening.

 

Besides, why attempt to cap if you can't keep it for a while? What would be the point? Remember Macbeth: "to be thus is nothing, but to be safely thus". The cap has no value if the enemy immediately contests it, whether you complete the capture or not. The only thing it's useful for is bait, but you've got to mind who's being baited: the enemy Schlieffen whom you farmed from smoke, but you as well, as you got radared and chunked.

 

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

One other thing I am very unsure in Daring or any other DD with good knife fighting capability is if I should engage other DDs when I meet them at the start of the game.

 

If you "meet them", you should probably engage them, smoke up (your British smokes are worth less than theirs, so if they reciprocate it's good for you) and keep shooting while they stay spotted. You can blind-fire them in they smoke and drop torps, too. Your hydro should already be active. However, if the enemy team has a radar nearby you should just leave: you don't want to be shot at when you're radared and the other DD isn't. This is doubly true of radar DDs (Ragnar, Smaland, Black and possibly the Pan Asians).

 

Now, the Daring has high DPM but so do many other Tier 10 DDs (Smaland, Vampire, Marceau, gunboat Gearing, Harugumo, Kléber with MBRB active...), so you won't really overpower most of your peers, if they're paying attention. That means that you shouldn't try too hard to "meet them", as it leads to even trades. Your job isn't to cap or to knife-fight other DDs: it's to spot, screen enemy torps and pick off isolated, overextended DDs (and subs). By "overextended" I mean that in a knife-fight you'd have much more fire support from your teammates than them from theirs.

 

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

However, it also results in the opponent losing a cap and possibly a DD, which is bad for them.

 

Again, caps are basically irrelevant in a good proportion of games, and very rarely better than a ship. So keep your ship, let them take the cap for a while, then turn things around. Patience.

 

One thing to remember is: the enemy DD that accepts a bad knife-fight is also, probably, a mediocre player, so sinking him isn't really a huge gain for your team. Not all enemies are equal: if they're easy to sink, they're likely (everyone makes mistakes) not very valuable.

 

Overall, if your strategy leads you, on average, to trade with below-average players, that makes you...a below-average player.

[Panocek]

59 minutes ago, Silfuin said:

What I normally do is hover on the other DDs in the initial screen to check, is that what you mean?

Not really, as those vague "stat numbers" are useless 99% of the time. And not sure if they account or not for ship/captain build.

 

Besides learning individial ship concealment, options would be:

-simplified values like +-5.5km for IJN, 5.8 for USN, 5.5-6km for UK

-installing mod that would show best possible concealment, I think I've seen such mod somewhere? Official Modstation perhaps?

 

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

Can you elaborate a bit more on why you are not afraid of radars anymore? is it because your positioning make it irrelevant if you are seen or not? Maybe covering yourself behind islands or something like that?

Most likely he takes position next to an island, so if radar happens, he can immediately hide behind hard cover, so you're covered from most likely directions of incoming fire.

Sometimes, Radar will merely spot you, while teammates of said radar owner will do the shooting.

 

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

So, basically if I understand correctly, when you cap with a DD you should always have an easy way out right?
Would it be ok to go into that cap in reverse?

Basically yes, unless you're sure you will be facing minimal opposition, be it from CV doing early spotting pass or late game, with few ships remaining and only one-two unaccounted for.

 

What I do is not necessarily to reverse, but do an U turn and sit on the edge of the cap, so if you drop "oh crap" smoke, first cloud immediately breaks visual contact. It does require at least concealment parity, advantage would be preferable.

 

1 hour ago, Silfuin said:

So what would it be? Engage or disengage? I guess it also depends on the situation, but just to have a basic scheme to follow ...

Early DD engagements over caps are dictated by teammates supporting - if you're alone on the cap and nearest friendly is 10km away without line of sight to aid you, then there's no point risking ship.

[Hirohito]

5 hours ago, Silfuin said:

One other thing I am very unsure in Daring or any other DD with good knife fighting capability is if I should engage other DDs when I meet them at the start of the game.

When I did it usually resulted in losing a good chunk of health and being forced to play very passive the rest of the game (if I survive, which not always happens), which leads me to believe it is not a good thing to do.
However, it also results in the opponent losing a cap and possibly a DD, which is bad for them.
So what would it be? Engage or disengage? I guess it also depends on the situation, but just to have a basic scheme to follow ...

Depends on circumstances as you say, but generally you want to engage almost anything in Daring.
But that doesnt mean going straight into the cap to pick the first fight you can, that will either get you killed or cause you to take such a bad trade as you say that you're relegated to passive play for the rest of the game.
If it's just 1 DD you can try to take him out early even if it costs you nearly all hp, because at that point you are the only DD and can generally outspot everything.

In general though, you want to pick the most unfair fight you can when playing Daring around the caps.
Find someone who is  relatively isolated from his team, and make sure that their team doesnt have too many angles to shoot at you, and you can generally destroy that DD in quick fashion unless he runs off.
These fights are very hard to properly explain though, because they depend on so many circumstances and small things.
The best I can advise is to watch "Destroyer Kuroshiokai" on youtube, he is hands down the best source to learn how to play any type of DD.
I don't think there's many DDs in the game that he doesnt have a guide for, and those videos can explain these things so much better than any wall of text on the forum can.

[Silfuin]

30 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Depends on circumstances as you say, but generally you want to engage almost anything in Daring.
But that doesnt mean going straight into the cap to pick the first fight you can, that will either get you killed or cause you to take such a bad trade as you say that you're relegated to passive play for the rest of the game.
If it's just 1 DD you can try to take him out early even if it costs you nearly all hp, because at that point you are the only DD and can generally outspot everything.

In general though, you want to pick the most unfair fight you can when playing Daring around the caps.
Find someone who is  relatively isolated from his team, and make sure that their team doesnt have too many angles to shoot at you, and you can generally destroy that DD in quick fashion unless he runs off.
These fights are very hard to properly explain though, because they depend on so many circumstances and small things.
The best I can advise is to watch "Destroyer Kuroshiokai" on youtube, he is hands down the best source to learn how to play any type of DD.
I don't think there's many DDs in the game that he doesnt have a guide for, and those videos can explain these things so much better than any wall of text on the forum can.

Thanks, I'll check his videos.