Someone explains to me the logic behind the credits earning and expenditure

[Silfuin]

As per title, I don't get it.
I am not a particularly good player, some of you might even say I'm pretty bad, but I find that for my skill level this game became unfun when I stopped dumping real money in it.

Problem is getting credits, which I used to buy but a while ago decided was not a good way of spending my real money.
Fact is that even average or poor players like to get and play the good ships, but as a DD main I find almost impossible to get credits while playing tier X DDs.
The whole grind to get new ships became so slow that I stopped playing for a while.
I came back recently and after a few weeks I am back to where I was: if I play tier X DDs I probably lose money instead of gaining it, and if I play Tier IX I get paierd up with tier X and XI and my game is not fun as it would be with Tier X ships.
Add to it that even with tier IX ships the credit gain for a decent game (middle of the pack, 40k or so damage and maybe a cap or two) is not that great, in the order of 50k, which means that in order to get a new tier X ship I'll have to play 300 or so games.
Multiply that for the number of ships that I have to buy in order to be able to get to the tier X ship, plus all equipments and it gets stale pretty quickly.
Premium ships get me more credits, but I have only one (the Groningen) and it binds me to playing just that, which is not fun after a game or so, particularly when on the other side there are Ragnar, Smaland, Marceau, the rapid fire cruisers, plenty of radars and so on.

I think that the concept that playing Tier X ships should be more difficult is already enforced by the competition you get in terms of ships and players.
Implementing an artificial way of discouraging poor or less than good players to play the highest tier is in my opinion not very fair to those poor players.
In fact, let's assume that all poor or less than average players completely avoid Tier X ships and stick to Tier IX or VIII ships.
They will often get paired with Tier X ships anyway, which will be used by good players, so good players will have an additional advantage besides being just better players, and the unfortunate poor players will get mauled over and over again, which is not fun.
It is not fun to be uptiered, even less so if all the  upper tier players are better than you.
I think that  less than average players should have the same tools as the others.
Maybe I am biased because I use only DDs and we know that they are not good credit earners, but to DD mains this system makes no sense and is discouraging me to continue playing.
Any opinion and advice is appreciated.

[Hakssor]

It's designed to discourage people from spamming TX and TXI all the time. Especially the ones who are less skilled. People should stop playing TX if they aren't good enough to break even and go play other tiers until they learn the basics. People are tired of guys who just rush through tiers then die in the first 3 minutes in their Shima. 

You can also buy a permacamo for  TX which give 50 % more credits or grind for a special ship like Marceau/Ragnar.

[KillStealBoss]

1. You don't grind credits on T10. Especially if you don't have permanent bonuses on such ship/ships. You do it with premium T9s (available for coal or free exp) not techtree.

2. Why you buy credits when you could just have premium account? 

3. You learn how to play to be better. You see, having such a problem like struggling with credits - that gives you motivation to be better. But accepting only the fact that you're not good isn't enough. It's ok that you accept that fact - but you have to do something with it to improve, which will result in better credit income. 

4. Use credit boosters only when playing premium ships. Don't waste them on techtree ships, especially not the green or blue ones. 

5. How can you have only 1 premium? What are you doing with the coal? Are you getting coal from daily containers? And if you are collecting other containers daily - stop it. Take only the coal containers. 

 

So yeah. You see I was also below average player. Having 780 PR and 47% WR with 30k average damage. But I saw it's not going to be ok like that, I acknowledged the fact that I'm bad and I have to improve. So I learned how to aim, position on map and use the minimap, predict the enemy, know when to push and when to retreat, who I should or I shouldn't help in order to win. It's a difficult and long process. But after 7 years I pulled my PR from 780 to 1762, WR from 47% to 61% and the dmg from 30k to 70k. It's not impossible. Everyone can do it having enough motivation to change. Being better player it's not only about the stats, but also you get more credits, more free exp and commander exp, so you can get more ships and train commanders faster. You can regrind a line much faster to get you RB points for a ship like Ohio or Vampire. 

[tocqueville8]

Just now, Silfuin said:

am not a particularly good player

No, you're not, but that's fine.

Just now, Silfuin said:

Problem is getting credits, which I used to buy but a while ago decided was not a good way of spending my real money.

Indeed it isn't.

Just now, Silfuin said:

In fact, let's assume that all poor or less than average players completely avoid Tier X ships and stick to Tier IX or VIII ships.
They will often get paired with Tier X ships anyway, which will be used by good players, so good players will have an additional advantage

You still fight less against Tier 10 ships if you play Tier 8-9 and get uptiered, than if you play Tier 10 yourself.

Just now, Silfuin said:

I think that  less than average players should have the same tools as the others.

As a below-average player (again, nothing wrong with that), your best "tools" are your teammates, as they're better than you on average.

Besides, you already have some of the best Tier 10 DDs: Daring, Kléber...even Halland should be alright.

Just now, Silfuin said:

Multiply that for the number of ships that I have to buy in order to be able to get to the tier X ship, plus all equipments and it gets stale pretty quickly.
Premium ships get me more credits, but I have only one (the Groningen) and it binds me to playing just that

You have 2000+ battles but not a single coal ship: why is that? What are you spending it on?

If I were you, I'd get a Gallant/Aigle/Blyskawica and chill out at Tier 6-7, instead of banging my head against a wall of Tier 10 opponents...in the Halland. You'd earn better credits and have more fun, for sure. Wargaming might force you into this position to make you purchase premium ships and keep the mid tiers populated...but you can get those ships for free and you should play mid tiers anyway. Not for them: for yourself.

Just now, Silfuin said:

I use only DDs and we know that they are not good credit earners, but to DD mains this system makes no sense and is discouraging me to continue playing.

DDs are just as good at earning credits as the other classes.

Maybe they're less consistent over multiple matches (they're the most likely to sink early, even without any major misplay), but overall they do fine.

 

Personally, credits issue aside, I think you would benefit from branching into the other classes: playing 1800 games in DDs and only 200 in everything else won't help you master DDs. It just makes you misunderstand everything else.

 

Cheers 

[Silfuin]

What do I do with coal? I bought Groningen, and a Captain for my Halland, plus I made the mistake of getting Kuznetsov for my russian DDS, which I stopped at Kiev (maybe I'll want to get to Tashkent, but Khabarovsk is not on the tech tree anymore ...)
I don't think so, a while ago people on this forum also acknowledged that and when I play Alaska and Massachussets I get way more credits then any DD I have without doing anything particular, but I don't like playing those ships.
I remember a fight with Alaska where I died without doing anything, and I still earned credits, if I die without doing anything in a DD I will lose credits for sure.
Also to KillStealBoss I accept fully that I am not a good player, but I am a casual player, I don't have the time nor the inclination to spend time studying the game to get better, plus 7 years is not a short time, it's not like you told me to put some effort for a month or two.
Anyway I'll get Gallant or Aigle and wil try them out.
I would like to get Z-44 but that's a lot of coal ... and I am now sitting on 25k, so it'll be a while.

Thanks for the answer

[Silfuin]

I noticed that credits and exp with premium account are more than doubled. IS tehre any way of getting premium account without dumping money in it?

 

[MoveZig]

2 hours ago, Silfuin said:

I noticed that credits and exp with premium account are more than doubled. IS tehre any way of getting premium account without dumping money in it?

 

You get some free prem time each month from the daily login, also a lot of collections give some days of premium. Each new update has 1 day of premium on a button in the patch notes. Dockyard events normally have 4 days of premium you can earn. But if you want tech-tree t10 ships to be more-or-less self-sustaining without prem, consider a Made of Steel bonus (Armory, Customization section). You can earn the steel for free in Ranked. Of course, you can also save steel or coal for a premium ship, which should be a net earner, especially the t9s.

[Panocek]

3 hours ago, Silfuin said:

I noticed that credits and exp with premium account are more than doubled. IS tehre any way of getting premium account without dumping money in it?

 

No, thats how game earns money. Game sometimes throw a bone err day of premium from time to time though.

 

And entire economy model is... magnificent if you think about it.

 

Game bullies you into grinding higher tiers as you're getting uptiered and shat on by better ships... Only to realize you need premium account or considerably git gud to sustain playing hightiers. Fact that firepower considerably outpaces survivability the higher tier you go also means any mistakes are more likely to be severely punished, which in turn makes players play passive, reducing hightier games to long range campfests.

 

So no, despite what game tries to tell you, there is no gold pot nor happiness at the end of the grind rainbow.

 

You've mentioned Z-44... That is one of the worst destroyers so I'd reconsider that

[MoveZig]

13 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Game bullies you into grinding higher tiers as you're getting uptiered and shat on by better ships

Eh, not everyone thinks like that, I've never felt the need to get to t10 unless the ship is actually appealing. Though it does seem WG are banking on it for a portion of the player base, who are the type to consistently play superships (and buy premium to be able to do that), just so they have the stronkest ship in the match.

 

13 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Fact that firepower considerably outpaces survivability the higher tier you go

Certainly not for cruisers. It's only uphill from t5. DDs, I don't feel are significantly more survivable in mid than high tiers, though radar makes things much dicier sometimes.

 

13 minutes ago, Panocek said:

So no, despite what game tries to tell you, there is no gold pot nor happiness at the end of the grind rainbow. 

I don't think it ever said that. On the contrary, it's pretty upfront about being a grind treadmill with lots of timegated events and new ships as the endgame content.

[Fediuld]

5 hours ago, Silfuin said:

Fact is that even average or poor players like to get and play the good ships, but as a DD main I find almost impossible to get credits while playing tier X DDs.
 The whole grind to get new ships became so slow that I stopped playing for a while.

 

T10s are about fun. If you want to make money get with coal or freexp a T9 ship. These are the money printers and proper premium ships. With Agir & Azuma I am making average 1mill per battle with the blue credit bonus. Even at losses hitting the 900K mark and I am not a good player either. Also those 2 ships made me a far better cruiser player the last 5 months. 

Alternative if you are DD main get one of the T9 destroyers. 

 

Pick what ever you like to play. If you like USN cruisers, get Tulsa. Is as good money maker as the above.

 

However, if meeting Superships is a problem, and it is for tier 9s, get a T8 ship. Even the tier 7 Tokachi we were given with the last month battlepass is a respectable credit earner. Though is not a ship that can turn battles with heal, like Agir or Azuma. 

[Panocek]

12 minutes ago, MoveZig said:

Eh, not everyone thinks like that, I've never felt the need to get to t10 unless the ship is actually appealing. Though it does seem WG are banking on it for a portion of the player base, who are the type to consistently play superships (and buy premium to be able to do that), just so they have the stronkest ship in the match.

Some people want to play the stronkest, some don't want to be artificially capped, and that includes concealment gap for DDs or lack of overmatch resistance on BBs for midtiers, when they see tier 8+.

[KillStealBoss]

5 hours ago, Silfuin said:

I bought Groningen

Groningen isn't coal ship, it's a free exp one. 

Also you didn't say all the truth about your premium ships cause it looks like you have Alaska and Massachusetts. And they are viable and strong ships but you have to play them right, something you need to learn. Cause doing maximum of 59k on Massa won't bring you any credits. Back in 2016 there was not much wows content on YouTube. But now? Plenty. You can invest some time and see how to play BBs and cruisers. Cause yes, playing all the time with one premium ship like Groningen is boring. 

 

Yes 7 years is a long time and I said it took some effort. And no, 1-2 months is not enough to make you play better, you won't get rid of bad habits. 

5 hours ago, Silfuin said:

, I don't have the time nor the inclination to spend time studying the game to get better

It's better to play a little less now, learn the game a bit more and then get into it with a better knowledge what to do. Theory won't make you a better player but it'll influence your decision making in battle. Don't accept the fact that you're a casual player and they you are not guns make it, cause you'll get stuck, you won't move anywhere from that point. And you'll struggle with credits a lot. The more you do in the battle, the more credits you earn. And you'll do it by surviving longer time and influencing the battle in the same time. Cause there are players who die too early, but also those who stay alive but not do much. You have to balance the 2 factors - staying alive and doing damage. It's not an easy one, it'll take time. But being patient is the key. 

[endlessBoogie]

Vor 6 Stunden, Silfuin sagte:

Premium ships get me more credits, but I have only one (the Groningen) and it binds me to playing just that, which is not fun after a game or so, particularly when on the other side there are Ragnar, Smaland, Marceau, the rapid fire cruisers, plenty of radars and so on.

groningen can fight or kill all dd´s it meets . radarcruisers are a threat for all dd´s. It´s real creditprinter 400-600 k with premium pretty much every game.

[stormguard]

I don't even play my t9 prems anymore cause of super matchmaking. Few problems is lots of radar, too much hp, the long range, supercvs scouting entire map in seconds (ruins alot of ambush tactics). This creates the sniping meta we have now which also in general leads to longer games. I play t8 with boosts  which makes me 2mil credit on good games and 500k on bad ones. Gametime is shorter and skillavg is lower which leads to more credits overall.

 

Make sure you have a premium account, play a premium ship or has perma cammo (has bonus to credits) and run extra credits boosters (can buy in armory).

 

If you loose more than 50% of your games GO DOWN IN TIER.    

[Panocek]

51 minutes ago, KillStealBoss said:

Also you didn't say all the truth about your premium ships cause it looks like you have Alaska and Massachusetts. And they are viable and strong ships but you have to play them right, something you need to learn. Cause doing maximum of 59k on Massa won't bring you any credits. Back in 2016 there was not much wows content on YouTube. But now? Plenty. You can invest some time and see how to play BBs and cruisers. Cause yes, playing all the time with one premium ship like Groningen is boring. 

 

Yes 7 years is a long time and I said it took some effort. And no, 1-2 months is not enough to make you play better, you won't get rid of bad habits. 

 

6 hours ago, Silfuin said:

Also to KillStealBoss I accept fully that I am not a good player, but I am a casual player, I don't have the time nor the inclination to spend time studying the game to get better, plus 7 years is not a short time, it's not like you told me to put some effort for a month or two.

I'm afraid this might be a lost case from get-go  If he doesn't want to "git gud" but wants easy solution, then there isn't one in WoWs.

[KillStealBoss]

27 minutes ago, stormguard said:

I don't even play my t9 prems anymore cause of super matchmaking. Few problems is lots of radar, too much hp, the long range, supercvs scouting entire map in seconds (ruins alot of ambush tactics). This creates the sniping meta we have now which also in general leads to longer games. I play t8 with boosts  which makes me 2mil credit on good games and 500k on bad ones. Gametime is shorter and skillavg is lower which leads to more credits overall.

 

Make sure you have a premium account, play a premium ship or has perma cammo (has bonus to credits) and run extra credits boosters (can buy in armory).

 

If you loose more than 50% of your games GO DOWN IN TIER.    

Well because of snowflakes people are not playing T11s that much, so now is the time to play them. I met way less T11s playing T10s and T9s (1-2 per team unlike what it was 5 per team), many battles without them even.

[ColonelPete]

7 hours ago, Silfuin said:

Any opinion and advice is appreciated.

Play different Tiers. The game does not only consist of Tier X and I doubt you have more fun on Tier X, considering your results.

You face easier opponents on lower Tiers and will also make mote money. There are also some coal ships for Tier VI and VII that can earn a lot of credits.

[tocqueville8]

7 hours ago, Silfuin said:

IS tehre any way of getting premium account without dumping money in it?

Having lots of Tier 10s will give you a lot of super containers each September (Anniversary event), and super containers often give premium time.

Santa containers (which you get from certificates, which you also get from Tier 10s) also can give a lot, but they're much less reliable: higher prize, lower chance of getting it.

 

Given that the problem is precisely to get Tier 10s in the first place, your best option for premium time is to buy it at a discount around New Year's.

 

But again, premium time won't make you a better player: branching out to the other classes, focusing on the mid tiers and maybe posting a few replays to ask for gameplay advice...might.

[hypsar]

dude, if you want to make credits with dd's t9-10 you have to l2p dd's t5-6-7

[Nibenay78]

You dont have to "study" the game to get better. Just consider what you did that made you die or why you did no damage.

 

Am i too close?

Am i too far?

Am i in a good position for this ship (near a cap with alaskas radar or setting up crossfire with a BB)?

If the enemy pushes now, where should i be?

Why did i get caught in this situation?

Does this happen every time in this situation?

 

Do you get target fixation? 

Are you aware when you are spotted or not?

Do you spam salvos or go dark inbetween, especially when turning to show broadside?

 

 

And so on. All of these are really basic questions even the most casual player can ask themselves if they want... I do this all the time still. It takes only a moments consideration while i watch my ship sink and realise maybe I was pushing my luck there...

 

 

And mostly playing 1 class doesnt give you the others perspecive.

 

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

Tier 11 is designed to cost you money, tier 10 you easily break even if you're an ok player, even without bonus (but with premium - which is probably the better choice compared to purchasing credits)

Playing low tiers will teach you nothing apart from how to best get shat on by high tiers, so if you learned what the mechanics offer in that tier - say, how radar works and how to not die in seconds as a DD - move on.

Tier 9 is the trash tier nowadays, as they can meet tier 11 ships. Fun and engaging. Just don't if you value your sanity. Yes, the design that you get rewarded to play the food for the whales is insidious. That's what they want, people who spend real cash on the game to buy credits to be able to play the high tier ships they couldn't afford, so they also have a chance to crap on others, even though they're trash. Pay to win.

Unfortunately they don't win more often, because a trash T11 in your team can't carry. And the good player in the T11 is always on the other side.

 So, not pay to win in concerning the total win rate but just a "oh, look, ffffffuuuuuun button, I am a good player, I can also deal damage", a perceived feeling of competence. That's all WG needs to sell.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

13 hours ago, Silfuin said:

As per title, I don't get it.
I am not a particularly good player, some of you might even say I'm pretty bad, but I find that for my skill level this game became unfun when I stopped dumping real money in it.

Problem is getting credits, which I used to buy but a while ago decided was not a good way of spending my real money.
Fact is that even average or poor players like to get and play the good ships, but as a DD main I find almost impossible to get credits while playing tier X DDs.

........

 

Tier 10 is not the tier to make your credits. IM a DD Main myself and I bought some strong T8 and 9 premiums that are my credit printers to carry me in my T10-11 games. 

 

DDs like Asashio, Kidd, Cossack, Lo Yang and cruisers like Mainz, Alaska and of course OG Missouri, Jean Bart, Georgia, Groningen, ships that dont mind being up tiered. These are great to make credits. Tier 10 you have to have awesome carry matches to have great credit scores. Also good to focus best targets. Trying to damage DDs and Subs gives you more than shipping of a Satsuma or Hannover. 

 

That said there is usually room for improvement. T 10 DDs is usually pretty strong if played right so you could probably turn your streak to profit with some minor changes to your playstyle. At tier 10 its mostly down to DONT SUICIDE, just staying alive to mid to late game would probably with some spotting, capping and damage turn it for u.

 

 

 

So buy a stron gship at T8-9 and get really good at playing it (watch a lot of YT videos on it) and you will get better and get better scores.

 

 

[Silfuin]

7 hours ago, KillStealBoss said:

Groningen isn't coal ship, it's a free exp one. 

Also you didn't say all the truth about your premium ships cause it looks like you have Alaska and Massachusetts. And they are viable and strong ships but you have to play them right, something you need to learn. Cause doing maximum of 59k on Massa won't bring you any credits. Back in 2016 there was not much wows content on YouTube. But now? Plenty. You can invest some time and see how to play BBs and cruisers. Cause yes, playing all the time with one premium ship like Groningen is boring.

You didn't read carefully: here's a quote of what I said:

14 hours ago, Silfuin said:

when I play Alaska and Massachussets I get way more credits then any DD I have without doing anything particular, but I don't like playing those ships.

 

10 hours ago, Panocek said:

You've mentioned Z-44... That is one of the worst destroyers so I'd reconsider that

Well, it is the only T9 out there for coal.
Anything you can advise me to get besides T6 DDS already mentioned?

 

9 hours ago, Fediuld said:

With Agir & Azuma I am making average 1mill per battle with the blue credit bonus. Even at losses hitting the 900K mark and I am not a good player either. Also those 2 ships made me a far better cruiser player the last 5 months. 

Alternative if you are DD main get one of the T9 destroyers.

Care to explain how to make 1 mil per game with DDs? someone said they can print credits just like other ships, but my experience doesn't tell me so.
Just yesterday I had a really good game with Kitakaze: 136k damage, kraken award, 2 caps, 7 defenses ... and yet I managed a "meager" 240k credits.
So do I have to just accept I need to play cruisers as well or I won't go anywhere?
And in which case what cruiser shall I get (I already have alaska, but I don't find it much fun to play, I would like something more agile, maybe with smoke to get out of situation where my lack of situational awareness sometimes puts me in) 
About T9 DDs see above: if not Z-44 (assuming I will still be playing when I get to 232k coal) what would be a fun and good Premium DD to buy?

 

7 hours ago, stormguard said:

longer games. I play t8 with boosts  which makes me 2mil credit on good games and 500k on bad ones. Gametime is shorter and skillavg is lower which leads to more credits overall.

This seems interesting.
Normal T8 or premiums?
DDs, Cruisers or BBs?

 

7 hours ago, Panocek said:

I'm afraid this might be a lost case from get-go  If he doesn't want to "git gud" but wants easy solution, then there isn't one in WoWs.

In a sense you are right.
I'm just trying to be honest with what I'm willing to to and what I expect, if there's no solution then so be it and I'll just quit playing.

However exploring possible different alternatives before that seems sensible.

 

@OldschoolGaming_YouTubethose are impressive reports, but ... F.Sherman ... I wish I had it, it'll be a long time as it costs 232k coals and I now sit on 25k
Also those credits figures refer to premium account, without it it's down to less than half, and with non premium DDs it would be even less for the same game.
What is interesting is that with BB you got way higher credits than with DD, which appears to confirm that BBs are indeed higher credits printers.

[Verblonde]

15 hours ago, Silfuin said:

Any opinion and advice is appreciated.

Some of this will reinforce what others have already said:

• Understand what drives rewards, and play accordingly (good basic source:https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Economy). Happily, the order in which you should blow stuff up to maximise rewards generally roughly accords with the order you should do so in order to win: DDs, cruisers, then fatties last (all things being equal). Basically, to maximise rewards, you're after proportional damage, not absolute damage (i.e. knocking 1,000 hp off a DD will be rewarded more than doing exactly the same damage to a BB).
• If you're going to spend any money at all on the game, premium account should be the first thing you buy - it works on every game/ship that you play. It's generally cheaper to buy it in large chunks but - probably obviously - it's still running down when you aren't playing (so don't generally buy a chunk the day before you go on holiday for a fortnight).
• If you want to make a decent silver profit, generally avoid higher tiers (*especially* superships - these are designed to be a credit sink). If you already have premium account, maybe get some premium ships (ideally for free i.e. for coal), but pick ones that you enjoy playing a lot - to get maximum value from them, you'll need to play them a lot, and you want to avoid this being a chore.
• If your results are less good (I haven't looked at your stats), drop down tiers until you reach the spot where they improve, and work from there. If you already have high tier ships you aren't getting results in, play them in Coop (if you have premium account, you should still make a modest profit, so long as you're doing damage).
• *Consider* the permanent economic booster package for some of your high tier ships (that you want to play more); these are expensive, but can be worthwhile, especially at T10 (they halve service cost there).
• The crucial thing though is to get good at doing lots of damage, and the right kind of damage, and doing it at an appropriate tier; focus on that, and maintaining a healthy profit should be relatively painless.

[Silfuin]

Just had a game with Groningen: awful game, I made a mistake early on, and got gunned into oblivion.
Result is I earned 100k credits!!!
So back to my original post: I don't get it: with an awesome game on my Kita I got 240k (See above: 139k damage, 5 sunken shipos and kraken award, 2 caps and 7 defenses).
I understand the logic of Wargaming to push people to buy ships and/or premium account with money, but I don't like it at all and it seems to me really really close to "pay to win".
This has nothing to do with being good or bad.

 

Anyway thanks to all for your advice, I'll try to follow what I can, and if there's anything more to say I'm all ears.