How to become better in reading of the map?

[COPlUM]

14 hours ago, Mr_Damager said:

Your question isn't stupid. The question is rather strange after 13000+ battles.

I think it can't be learned. It's more like some kind of a talent you're born with. Nobody is good at everything.

Those who say "try to be better in reading map in play" think that you have the same talent as they do and you just don't (want to) "read" the map properly. They cannot put themselves in your place ("curse of knowledge", maybe).

13.000 co-op games, so in terms of acquired skill he's basically new here, the only thing he learned in those 13.000 games is leading a target that goes in a straight line at a constant speed. Also yes everyone can learn everything, i've played typhoon league with a 68 year old. If someone is thousands of games in with 44% it really is because they don't want to learn or, more likely, because they convinced themselves that they can't learn.

[COPlUM]

1 hour ago, Mr_Damager said:

If something can be learned then it can be taught and there should be an answer to the question "how can it be learned?"

This is more accurate in the sense that, to answer OP's question fully one would need to upload one million screenshots of minimap/scoreboard combinations and say for each scenario what the best play is and why. He can't learn from others what to do in every specific scenario obviously, knowing what to do in any given scenario is experience, pattern recognition, processing information quickly. But what he can learn from others is how to get started, and the mere fact that he is asking these questions indicates he is intelligent enough to eventually do it. He will need a few things to get started :

- Make your minimap larger and enable advanced UI - last known positions
- Look at it often, both when you're winning and losing, try to understand why you're winning or losing, try to understand how your win could still become a loss, or how your loss could still become a win
- Install the mod (clock?) that tells you which team wins in how many minutes/seconds => You can't develop a feel for when you really need a cap, when you need to run and run out the clock etc without this mod

 

Making a habit of this, even if he doesn't act on it because he does not have the skill to execute yet, will teach him to constantly recognize and update potential win scenarios in his head, this will come in handy later because effectively what's going on in a good players head all game is stuff like this : '2v4, 200 points lead, 5 mins 24 seconds until we win but only 3 minutes and 20 seconds remaining, so if I tell my low HP teammate to run away, I snatch one kill, launch a spread of torpedoes into B to prevent the enemy from sailing in and spend at least 7 seconds in C cap before running away to J10 I still win. Doing stuff like this results in fanmail from people on the other team because they thought they won, they don't understand what you did or why, they call you a coward for running away and beating them with 1000 vs 997 points or whatever.

The next step is doing the same thing for lose scenarios, this is not useful for increasing winrate, only useful for getting your damage and PR numbers up without sacrificing winrate. You go over all the scenarios in which you can still lose, if there are none left you can be a greedy son of a b and kill yourself to get some more damage done, this results in fanmail from people on your team because they don't understand you ran the math in your head, concluded there were no more scenarios in which you can lose and call you a potato for 'dying unnecessarily' and 'that almost cost us the game' or something to that effect.

Install all the mods that give you more useful information, the win/lose clock but for example also the mod that puts an icon on every ship what the range of their radar, hydro and torpedoes is. Everone can forget in the heat of the moment that gorizia has 6km hydro, Z39 has 5km hydro, borodino is a battleship with radar, because you don't see these things often and there's 500 ships in the game at this point.

[Bear__Necessities]

Look around you at all, times, even when engaging in fights. Look at the terrain and what can cover you and cover them. Look at where planes are going, enemy and friendly. Look and remeber last known positions of everyone, red AND green. In short, never fixate on a target for more than a couple of seconds unless you can absolutely confirm NOBODY else can interfere. 

[Mr_Damager]

1 hour ago, COPlUM said:

13.000 co-op games, so in terms of acquired skill he's basically new here, the only thing he learned in those 13.000 games is leading a target that goes in a straight line at a constant speed. Also yes everyone can learn everything, i've played typhoon league with a 68 year old. If someone is thousands of games in with 44% it really is because they don't want to learn or, more likely, because they convinced themselves that they can't learn.

You got something wrong... 6668 random games actually.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

17 hours ago, Mr_Damager said:

I think it can't be learned. It's more like some kind of a talent you're born with. Nobody is good at everything.

Uh - learning does work. Ok, maybe not for everyone, I guess, but you really shouldn't judge others by your own standards.

[Mr_Damager]

59 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Uh - learning does work.

I agree. But there are some things that can't be learned. Do you agree? Do you know what a talent is?

Do you realize that we are talking about some particular skills in one particular game (World of Warships): reading the map, fast decision-making? The question is "can it be learned or it's some kind of a talent?". Do you know for sure?

59 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Ok, maybe not for everyone, I guess.

Not everyone is good at WoWS. You're not good at something either. Why? Because you're not talented enough, for example.

59 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

but you really shouldn't judge others by your own standards.

What standards? Some people are talented at something, some are not. That is not "my own standards", dude.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 minute ago, Mr_Damager said:

Not everyone is good at WoWS. You're not good at something either. Why? Because you're not talented enough, for example.

you can surpass talent with dedication. I was crap at the game for quite a while until I decided to git gud. It worked quite well.

Talent is just a stepping stone nothing more. You can learn anything you put your mind to

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

20 minutes ago, Mr_Damager said:

I agree. But there are some things that can't be learned. Do you agree? Do you know what a talent is?

No and yes. A talent just means you have an easier time. But if you don't hone the skill, anyone who does not have a talent but sheer dedication will surpass you, easily.

If you are incapable of overcoming a lack of talent that's sad - but not necessarily true for anyone else.

[WildWind84]

22 hours ago, Hirohito said:

4X W and only tunnelvisioning on targets

Khm... this sounds very familiar to me... OK, I will correct this immidiatelly, promise. Tnx.

[WildWind84]

22 hours ago, Hirohito said:

Depends on what you play, but if you play something like a DD yourself (maybe a cruiser), you can know his position by using the Radio Location skill, that will point you in the right direction.
I think it can be a great tool to start playing DDs/Cruisers if you are not too comfortable with the concealment game yet.

Tnx for this, I didn't even think about this skill. Reason - capt. stars... I guess I will need improve much more my captains.

[Mr_Damager]

19 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

No and yes. A talent just means you have an easier time. But if you don't hone the skill, anyone who does not have a talent but sheer dedication will surpass you, easily.

Is it worth spending hard time to overcome a lack of the talent? Just to be a good player? I don't think so.

19 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

If you are incapable of overcoming a lack of talent that's sad - but not necessarily true for anyone else.

That isn't "sad", actually. That isn't good for someone who wants to be a good player. You can live without being good at WoWS or playing it. Did you know that?

[Hirohito]

7 minutes ago, WildWind84 said:

Khm... this sounds very familiar to me... OK, I will correct this immidiatelly, promise. Tnx.

This is probably where you should start after you learned how to aim (which I am sure you can already after thousands of coop games).

I remember when I started out as well, I was so focused on the target I was gonna shoot (even if it was still 20s reload left) that I completely forgot about everything around me, and eventually I sailed straight into a crossfire or rammed an island.
Just force yourself into the habit of not staying in binocular mode when you are reloading, and instead look around you and at the minimap.

BBs are perfect to start out learning this, because you are essentially doing nothing useful with your time if you are zoomed in and your guns take 30s to reload.

[WildWind84]

20 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

I notice especially for inexperienced players, the do not predict the movement of a ship going dark correctly.

You have right here, and yes, I am very very struggle with this. About all you write in this post I can say you just THANK YOU  because you really explain lots things to me. I really appriciate all and I will try to memorize all and implement in game 

[Hirohito]

8 minutes ago, Mr_Damager said:

Is it worth spending hard time to overcome a lack of the talent? Just to be a good player? I don't think so.

That isn't "sad", actually. That isn't good for someone who wants to be a good player. You can live without being good at WoWS or playing it. Did you know that?

Depends on what your standards are, but I am positive that getting something like 52-53% "true" WR has nothing to do with talent.
To reach a WR like that (already putting you up in the top fifth of the player base), you essentially just have to know how to aim, select good targets to shoot at and not die unnecessarily, and those are skills that can be learned quite easily.
That's it, no great situational awareness, tactical genius or intricate knowledge of armour schemes needed.

[WildWind84]

19 hours ago, Mr_Damager said:

The question is rather strange after 13000+ battles.

Yes, I guess I should explain this. So, I am in game 2 years. For time of lockdown, I played a lot. There was also 2 for us hard eartquakes, so very often I was going to sleep in the morning, and on night I was ready to wake up family in case of another earthquakes. So, instead of fear, I was played (a lot). 

Also, very important thing here is: it was just "arcads game" for me, very long time (until around 10-11k battles haven't clue). When I start listening here and learning and questioning myself and also get new laptop (on the old I barely saw any ship), thing become better. So that is short story how I got this number of battles and ships.

 

[WildWind84]

5 hours ago, COPlUM said:

13.000 co-op games, so in terms of acquired skill he's basically new here, the only thing he learned in those 13.000 games is leading a target that goes in a straight line at a constant speed. Also yes everyone can learn everything, i've played typhoon league with a 68 year old. If someone is thousands of games in with 44% it really is because they don't want to learn or, more likely, because they convinced themselves that they can't learn.

Check explanation in my last post to MrDamager, agree I should explain this in start. Not 13k battles in coop, you are wrong. About WR is 46 if I not mistake. 

I wanna learn, I hope I can, but for now this (forum) is my only way to try to learn. 

[GarrusBrutus]

@WildWind84

A good way to improve your minimap reading is rewatching your own battles that didn't go well and pay special attention to the minimap. Often when you watch it again you'll notice (for example) that the Bb that blapped you was spotted way before you ate his volley. 

 

I think most good players watch the minimap 50+% of the time they play, unless in close quarter combat obviously. 

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

4 hours ago, Mr_Damager said:

That isn't "sad", actually. That isn't good for someone who wants to be a good player. You can live without being good at WoWS or playing it. Did you know that?

That's a mindset I will never understand. Why do things for fun, even, and not trying to excel or improve?

[COPlUM]

I was a 46% potato until I was about 4000 games in, at 57% now 8000 games in and the pace is increasing, you can do an educated guess as to what kind of averages i have been running since. The biggest change for me by far was installling matchmaking monitor only to identify the best player(s) on my team and watch him/them play out the match after I died. I did this almost religiously for the next 4000 games. Don't armchair general, don't bother the guy, don't even talk to the guy, just watch him play. This way, 10, 20, 30 times a day you have these moments "Huh, why is he doing that, ohhhh, damn I wouldn't have thought of that" - You get to play fewer games a day but you will learn much faster. It's basically 5~7 minutes of advanced training between every game you play. As a former potato if I can recommend one thing, this would be it.

[COPlUM]

4 hours ago, WildWind84 said:

Check explanation in my last post to MrDamager, agree I should explain this in start. Not 13k battles in coop, you are wrong. About WR is 46 if I not mistake. 

I wanna learn, I hope I can, but for now this (forum) is my only way to try to learn. 

My bad I had mistaken you for someone else I was helping yesterday with 13K co-op games, was asking similar questions. Either way, doesn't change my advice, your stats 6500 games in are only marginally worse than mine were 4000 games in, it's never too late to turn things around. I recommend applying all the advice you found, not just mine, to T5 until you have average stats in T5 with all 3 classes (DD,CA,BB) then repeat in T6, then repeat in T7 etc because applying all this is progressively harder each tier up.

[zengaze]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:29 AM, WildWind84 said:

Hi, maybe stupid question, but - how to get better in reading of map? And also, when many of you say "try to be better in reading map in play" - how? Where to start learn? Next questions are about positioning - how to know and see what is best option? I understand on this forum that I need learn much more, so I try.

Tnx for all advices and sry for my low level of English.

 

The start of a battle is probably the most important time to read the map, look at what your team has on your flank relative to the enemy teams, in terms of numbers and threats. If you're in a DD and they have 3 rdr cruisers at your cap, contesting it isn't the brightest idea. You have to shape your battle decision on the info the map gives you. If you are weak on the flank you have to go defensive, and hope your strong flank aren't the average clusterfucks that make up the WG playerbase (they will be).

 

Secondly is understanding axis. It's a near universal rule that ships are easier to delete broadside over bow on. Seeing the reds get another axis on you and your flank before it happens, and repositioning to reduce the chance of being deleted is the other main use of the map. You can tell with 99% certainty when a game is lost by doing this, because 99% of the mentally deficient rejects have zero idea of what is happening on the tactical map, and therefore don't react to it.  

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 9 Stunden, Mr_Damager sagte:

Is it worth spending hard time to overcome a lack of the talent? Just to be a good player? I don't think so.

And you're free to think that way. But others will disagree. To each their own.

 

The thing is though that becoming capable with the minimap (the topic of the OP) or a decent to good WoWs player in general is not subject to talent, it is subject to putting in the necessary work and learn. Talent will make that easier, but lack of doesn't make it impossible.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

On 12/3/2022 at 12:29 PM, WildWind84 said:

Hi, maybe stupid question, but - how to get better in reading of map? And also, when many of you say "try to be better in reading map in play" - how? Where to start learn? Next questions are about positioning - how to know and see what is best option? I understand on this forum that I need learn much more, so I try.

Tnx for all advices and sry for my low level of English.

First of, the thing you should start to read first of all is the team lineup. Depending on what type of class you play, for instance:

• If you play a BB, is there a CV in play? How many DDs and which? How many fire spammers? This should effect how aggressive you play at start, if you go alone or bundle together with other AA etc.
• If your a DD, is there a CV in play? How many DDs and which? How many radars and range/duration? DD killing divs?
• In any class, is there a "Wolfpack div on the enemy team (a div built to kill someone i.e. DDs)? Is there a well-known streamer/Super Unicum on the other team? A Radar cruiser/DD Div? Divs always spawn together, is there a Troll/Wolfpack div (if you dont know what this is look at Trenlass/Flambass divs videos) on your flank you should either relocate to other flank or just be extremely cautious. 

All these factors should decide how you start the game.

 

Then you spawn. You look at the minimap on your team. Usually there is a heavy flank with majority of your team and usually there is a weak flank with only 2-3 spawning ships, then you have to take this into consideration. Also take into consideration the speed of different classes. Not counting BBs that camp spawn all game there are pretty slow even when moving and a thing I notice every game is that fast guy who rushes into a cap and dies first 2 min of the game and then cries in chat that team doesn't support. They haven't even had time to leave spawn yet?!?! So maybe not rush like a fool into death?

 

Never go full speed at start. If you are a DD or a cruiser go half to 3/4 speed towards the enemies. This means that your Support (BBs) will have time to catch up and you will not be then only guy focus fired by enemy team.

 

No game has been decided because a DD enters a cap first 1 minute of a game, that DD usually dies. So DONT push into caps at start. Everything designed to kill you are waiting for you (CVs. radars, DDs etc etc) so rather wait a couple of minutes until most of the enemies has been spotted and CVs and radars are engaged elsewhere and then you can go in a take a cap without dying. The team that still has a DD left alive in the mid to late game is usually the team that wins, so dont throw your DD away to tr and contest a cap at start.

 

During the whole game you should look at the minimap almost every 2-3 seconds to keep you updated. Where are we strong? Where are we weak? Are we getting flanked/surrounded? and act accordingly.

 

Ping minimap when you know the location of enemy sub/DD, perhaps because you see torps swimming by. Keep yourself updated where the last known location was for a spotted enemy team, try to think how they would move and what their next step would be, this game is very similar to chess in many ways.

[WildWind84]

Thank you for all your's answers and efforts. Right now I can't read your's answers or play game. Last night got conjunctivitis on both eyes so for some time, until my eyes got better, laptop is forbidden for me. I appriciate all your's efforts and promise when I could read again, I will read all and answer to all of your's advices or question if there is some of them. And also, when I could play, I will try to implement here goten advices in my battles, starting from those let's say more "basic" to more complex. And I promise, I will not gave up of trying to implement them. I hope I will success at least half of them to become "usual thing" to me in every battle. Thank you all of you and I will answer when I could read, answer and play game. 

Best Regards

WildWind84

 

[Seraphice]

I will preface this with one important thing - knowing how to read "battle flow" is one of the hardest things in the entire game to learn. Predicting how things will play out based on the position of all ships is extremely challenging and takes a lot of time and dedicated practice, but this is the result of extensive knowledge of how the minimap works and how to read it.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 12:42 PM, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

First things first: Increase the size of the minimap to it's maximum. Press the + key on the keypad to do so.

Then keep looking at it, ever so often. Notice how flank collapses happen, notice how an enemy push is telegraphed, keep track on what's happening on the other flank - do they win, do they lose, do they need help and so on.

I generally tend to go maximum size, and then 1 smaller. That also seems to be the most common for the people around me, but in general making the minimap bigger and enabling all the details such as ship names is always a benefit.
 

On 12/3/2022 at 1:05 PM, AtaIante said:

The best and fastest way is to play CV. You will look at it constantly and quickly learn

Unironically yes - as a CV you will spend more time looking at the minimap than you do looking at anything else since picking targets is the most important thing. If you're not striking a target or dodging AA, then you should be looking at the minimap. It definitely can help you build the habit of looking at your minimap.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 2:49 PM, WorthyOpponent said:

You can't know that. That's why it takes a lot of practice and that's why you must try to guess their plan, because, let's say, that DD going to E5 means they are headed for an objective. Or, maybe, your flank shows broadside to F6 and thus it is way easier to torp from there... Maybe there is a radar cruiser whose radar range sees E5 but not E7. There are a lot of variables. You can just eliminate the options and guess it.

This is a tricky one - with enough experience you can usually "guess" in which square the DD will be just based on prior experience and deduction, but this is not something that you should be worried about at this point. it's better to start your journey slowly in smaller steps. Start with building the habit of looking at the minimap, then you can go into reading it bit by bit, reading what actual information is there and then you can go into deducing other things from the information available.

If you immediately try to skip to step 4 without the other steps, it won't work out.

So as mentioned above, try to build the habit first of looking at the minimap every 15 seconds, 10 seconds, 5 seconds.
Then once you have this habit of looking at it every 5 or so seconds, you can start working out what information is available to you on the minimap. Check to see which enemies are spotted, who is spotting you, who you can shoot, who can shoot/torpedo you.

Then you can start making conclusions. If I move there, then I will be able to shoot these enemies and do XYZ etc.

 

And then after you have that down you can start using all the experience you built to start deducing information. e.g. I'm spotted at the start of the game and no enemies are spotted yet. OK this means there is an enemy DD spotting me. If the enemy DD is as fast as our own DD on our flank, I wouldn't be spotted here, so it cant be the enemy daring. So it must be the enemy shimakaze heading straight for the cap from the spawn, because that is the only way the DD could be so close to the cap to spot my Cruiser.

But this will take a very long game. Hundreds if not thousands to fully understand and master this. At every step of the way, there is no shame in simply taking a couple seconds of rest and just ask yourself "ok, what now" and thinking about it for a couple seconds.

 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera