Tactical advice

[MrWastee]

58 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

/snip

 

2 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

Uneven spread is the key problem. Everything you said in this post is the situations in almost all of my games. Until WG hopefully resolves this, I will try to evade that situations early on and to kitte with the rest of allied ships which are changing cap. Thanks for such a good explanation. 

while it is a problem for us in single matches it not is to them for all matches. coz it mixes up match dynamic. if in each match both teams would spawn 6/6 matches would end up less diverse in progression and outcome. i don't like it, but i understand it.... i think lol ^^....

[Deksi_4]

4 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

nah, it's a sheetshow .... but at least easier to manage for one alone so to say. u'll see the horrors still sadly.

 

on a note to u and @WildWind84: u 2 are a quite refreshing experience for this forum, thank u !

You welcome, I started being active on the forum not long ago. I read all the topics and I think that reading and listening someones advices can lead to be a better player and to make wiser decisions in future games. 

[WildWind84]

3 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

You welcome, I started being active on the forum not long ago. I read all the topics and I think that reading and listening someones advices can lead to be a better player and to make wiser decisions in future games. 

Agree with all completely :)

[Deksi_4]

7 minutes ago, WildWind84 said:

Agree with all completely :)

@WildWind84If you need any advice or help with any ship playstile, you can text me in the in the game client at any time, and I will respond you, or if you want we can division sometimes to play together. 

[WildWind84]

3 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

@WildWind84If you need any advice or help with any ship playstile, you can text me in the in the game client at any time, and I will respond you, or if you want we can division sometimes to play together. 

Count with that :) Tnx 

[MrWastee]

5 minutes ago, WildWind84 said:

Count with that :) Tnx 

i'll just leave one advice 4 french dd's.........

 

never!ever!play!along!this!song!.... killed me after like 3-4 mins max

 

 

happy hunting gentlemen

[WildWind84]

1 hour ago, MrWastee said:

i'll just leave one advice 4 french dd's.........

 

never!ever!play!along!this!song!.... killed me after like 3-4 mins max

 

 

happy hunting gentlemen

You have good taste for music :)

[Sir_Sinksalot]

3 hours ago, MrWastee said:

 

while it is a problem for us in single matches it not is to them for all matches. coz it mixes up match dynamic. if in each match both teams would spawn 6/6 matches would end up less diverse in progression and outcome. i don't like it, but i understand it.... i think lol ^^....

 

Ya I'd agree and touched on the positive aspect of the "dynamic" spawn lol. 

 

The imbalance does make things happen during a battle because here's the thing.

 

1. Technically there is no imbalance. If everyone stayed and fought where they spawned since ship distribution is mirrored. In other words if there's just only 3 ships on one flank, there'll be just 3 ships on the other. If 1 has a DD, the other has too. If one ship is a top tier and also a bottom tier, it's the same for the other side etc.

2. Regardless of that balance, it's still imbalanced and an opening or point of playmaking for one team or the other if they just probe that flank, fake a retreat, bait enemy ships into an aggressive push or alternatively if even just 2 ships come across and join that flank, suddenly there's a 5 vs 3, almost 2 vs 1 situation. Also, the ships are usually not going to be same. 1 DD is a gunboat, the other is a torp-boat, or one is just better and of course, the players are better and worse etc.

3. if there's a CV, they will still have a better time against the weaker flank with just 3 ships AA, compared to a large fleet of packed ships chucking a carpet of flak.

 

So this numerically weak and strong flanking dynamic still creates weak points and strong points regardless of the apparent even spread going on initially.

 

Personally I think I like it for that reason but with a big fat "DEPENDS!". Because it's just 2-3 ships it makes it very sensitive to ship and player and tier imbalance. Sure, their tiers will match each other on a ship by ship basis but of a T9 DD gets hammered by a T11 cruiser, that's not going to be an enjoyable experience I can tell you that nor is a T9 or T10 cruiser having a full salvo from a T11 BB crushed into it's side or overmatched bow lol. So it's balanced, and yet NOT balanced lol.

 

Thing is though, I'm not sure given the average WOWS players ability, if this is a good thing. There wasn't really a "stalemate" situation when all ships were somewhat evenly spread across the starting spawn. Ships tend to swap around and change flanks anyway simply because either one flank has a stronger DD than their DD or there's a radar cruiser or one team has a CV suited to farming DD's while the other is better suited to griefing cruisers etc. Players will look to avoid problem ships and attack ships they feel they can defeat. So, this numerical inferiority/superiority dynamic kinda always came to pass anyway, but it wasn't forced is the difference and so I'm not sure if it's leading to more lemming trains and rofl stomps or faster battles than before. It could be leading to better battles lol, hard to say.

[Deksi_4]

1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

 

Ya I'd agree and touched on the positive aspect of the "dynamic" spawn lol. 

 

The imbalance does make things happen during a battle because here's the thing.

 

1. Technically there is no imbalance. If everyone stayed and fought where they spawned since ship distribution is mirrored. In other words if there's just only 3 ships on one flank, there'll be just 3 ships on the other. If 1 has a DD, the other has too. If one ship is a top tier and also a bottom tier, it's the same for the other side etc.

2. Regardless of that balance, it's still imbalanced and an opening or point of playmaking for one team or the other if they just probe that flank, fake a retreat, bait enemy ships into an aggressive push or alternatively if even just 2 ships come across and join that flank, suddenly there's a 5 vs 3, almost 2 vs 1 situation. Also, the ships are usually not going to be same. 1 DD is a gunboat, the other is a torp-boat, or one is just better and of course, the players are better and worse etc.

3. if there's a CV, they will still have a better time against the weaker flank with just 3 ships AA, compared to a large fleet of packed ships chucking a carpet of flak.

 

So this numerically weak and strong flanking dynamic still creates weak points and strong points regardless of the apparent even spread going on initially.

 

Personally I think I like it for that reason but with a big fat "DEPENDS!". Because it's just 2-3 ships it makes it very sensitive to ship and player and tier imbalance. Sure, their tiers will match each other on a ship by ship basis but of a T9 DD gets hammered by a T11 cruiser, that's not going to be an enjoyable experience I can tell you that nor is a T9 or T10 cruiser having a full salvo from a T11 BB crushed into it's side or overmatched bow lol. So it's balanced, and yet NOT balanced lol.

 

Thing is though, I'm not sure given the average WOWS players ability, if this is a good thing. There wasn't really a "stalemate" situation when all ships were somewhat evenly spread across the starting spawn. Ships tend to swap around and change flanks anyway simply because either one flank has a stronger DD than their DD or there's a radar cruiser or one team has a CV suited to farming DD's while the other is better suited to griefing cruisers etc. Players will look to avoid problem ships and attack ships they feel they can defeat. So, this numerical inferiority/superiority dynamic kinda always came to pass anyway, but it wasn't forced is the difference and so I'm not sure if it's leading to more lemming trains and rofl stomps or faster battles than before. It could be leading to better battles lol, hard to say.

@Sir_SinksalotSeems that it happens to me every time that I am on our weak flank, which is at the same time enemy strong flank. That wasnt for me the case in the past. That is strange to me, because if I am on a weak flank I try to use cover to close to the enemy thinking that I will have support from my two team mates on the same weak flank. Instead of giving each other support on holding the flank and damaging enemy ships, they at the start, in a minute retreat completely without pointing that in chat to me. When I see that they turned to go to the other side to the map, is late for my Moskva or Salem because they turn slow and that is the end for me,because I cant do a turn showing broadside at all enemy team and they focus Fire me bow on until I am dead. I must read the minimap bwtter and start to look actively what my team mates are doing. If they start to escape from the cap imediately I will reverse stern to enemy to go with them. Nothing else I can do. Do you agree with me? I agree to everything you said here. 

[urr027]

When you are on weak flank, you have two options:

 

1. Fail to cap and die

2. Fail to cap and not die

 

Your kiting teammates are doing the right thing.

[COPlUM]

9 hours ago, Deksi_4 said:

I play tier 10 games for two years

I am an average player but have a problem recently with bad tactical decisions of my team mates. The problem I am facing is the following: at the start of any match I played recently, in the first minutes of the game I am always spawn by the MM on our team weak flank, for instance on cap C. On this side usually there is only one or maximum two allied ships which are not trying anything to push and fight the enemy ships. When they see enemy ships approaching that cap, they turn away and kite... I die almost right away alone, because all my team leaves me alone.

Good advice is honest advice. You're not average, not even close. You played 11.000 co-op games, you played 68 tier 10 games. When you spawn on the weak flank and your 2 friends are kiting away, they are actually doing the right thing (depending on how they do it) The weak flank is the best place to spawn both in terms of influence on the outcome of the match and in terms of damage you can put out. Because being on the weak flank -if you're good at the game- allows you to delay a large group of enemy ships for a long time, giving the rest of your team on the other side a numerical advantage which allows them to win their flank and reposition to the middle usually.

To understand why being chased is so much better than chasing in terms of damage output and outrading, you have to understand shell travel time, if you shoot something that's chasing you your shell travel time is reduced while theirs is increased. If your friends are fleeing, genuinely just running away without delaying the enemy and buying your strong flank time, then they're also doing it wrong, but less wrong than you taking a 1v6 fight.

My last game yesterday I was 1v6 in my kitakaze, I did this intentionally because I saw my entire team go one way. I didn't do much damage but I had the CV and 6 ships trying to kill me for 10 minutes, meanwhile my team was mopping up the other side 11v5. Wasting time to give your team a numerical advantage on the other side is one of the if not the most powerful tools in world of warships. To do this you have to make sure the enemy keeps deepthroating your bait, even in a DD you sometimes have to give the enemy false hope that they might kill you before repositioning. Leave your smoke, shoot some shells, take some chip damage, pop a smoke and leave it to make DDs torpedo an empty smoke -& make courageous BBs and hydro cruisers push into it, but you're already gone. Stuff like that.

You might die doing this for 10 minutes but by then the game is probably won because you made half the enemy team 'chase the rabbit' while your team took map control. Good players will quickly recognize that they are chasing the rabbit, stop chasing you and try to get some map control back instead. But the overwhelming majority of players will chase the rabbit to the end of the world and lose the match in the process, especially if you give them false hope every minute or so.

[COPlUM]

56 minutes ago, urr027 said:

Your kiting teammates are doing the right thing.

Pretty much, if they're actually kiting though, not just running to the strong flank, that's a lemming train.

[Head_has_Exploded]

Some of the best games are when you are in a divsion, solo games are hard, mind you it may depend on who you division with too.

[Head_has_Exploded]

6 hours ago, MrWastee said:

i'll just leave one advice 4 french dd's.........

 

never!ever!play!along!this!song!.... killed me after like 3-4 mins max

 

 

happy hunting gentlemen

Damn, I'll have this in my head everytime I press battle now, lol

[Deksi_4]

3 hours ago, urr027 said:

When you are on weak flank, you have two options:

 

1. Fail to cap and die

2. Fail to cap and not die

 

Your kiting teammates are doing the right thing.

I disagree. How can be the right thing to abandon the flank completely at the start of the game?If we stay and hold the weak flank, we can damage enemies and at least buy time to our team to win the stronger flank when enemies are weak. And not to mention that in the process od abandoning the flank and escaoing, they should at least tell that in advance in chat. But everyone nowdays is selfish, a lot of team players dont know and dont wanna know anything about team work. And team work wins or losse games. This is my opinion, you may disagree. 

[Deksi_4]

2 hours ago, COPlUM said:

Pretty much, if they're actually kiting though, not just running to the strong flank, that's a lemming train.

But they run like rabbits and this is bad behavior.They dont do anything worthwile the whole game. At the end everyone of them die and we loose. That is not strategy,that si making bad decisions and bad play. 

[Deksi_4]

2 hours ago, Head_has_Exploded said:

Some of the best games are when you are in a divsion, solo games are hard, mind you it may depend on who you division with too.

You are probably right, it is better to play in division off course, but because off my work I dont have anyone who can play in the moments when I am free to play. So I play always alone. It is harder, but I try to always give my best and enyoy to play. Because the lack of time I usually play co-op a lot more. 

[COPlUM]

Just now, Deksi_4 said:

But they run like rabbits and this is bad behavior.They dont do anything worthwile the whole game. At the end everyone of them die and we loose. That is not strategy,that si making bad decisions and bad play. 

As I said, if they're on the weak flank with you and kiting/delaying, they are doing the right thing. If they are running to the other side they are probably not doing the right thing. You taking a 1v6 fight is definitely not the right thing either. If you want people to check it out and tell you exactly what these people are doing and why, you're going to have to share some replays like AtaIante said. In the meantime not many people will give you the benefit of the doubt because you said you are an experienced T10 player, you played 11.000 co-op games and 68 T10 games. The most likely scenario here is your teammates are kiting, you think they are running away because kiting and running away looks somewhat similar. The point of kiting is do as much damage as possible while 'running away' - You run away fast enough to not die, but slow enough so you can keep shooting, trading favorably and buy your strong flank as much time as possible.

Good players can consistently delay half a dozen ships by themselves doing this, providing the rest of their team with numerical advantage on the other side. Good players will even (within reason) try to get on the weak flank to do this because being the rabbit and making enemies chase the rabbit is an excellent way of getting wins and getting good damage numbers in the process.

They will also often avoid being on the strong flank for too long because they know it will become a game of chase the rabbit, instead reposition to the middle of the map early, anticipating the fact that that is where the match will actually be decided when everyone is done chasing their rabbit(s)

[Deksi_4]

3 hours ago, COPlUM said:

Good advice is honest advice. You're not average, not even close. You played 11.000 co-op games, you played 68 tier 10 games. When you spawn on the weak flank and your 2 friends are kiting away, they are actually doing the right thing (depending on how they do it) The weak flank is the best place to spawn both in terms of influence on the outcome of the match and in terms of damage you can put out. Because being on the weak flank -if you're good at the game- allows you to delay a large group of enemy ships for a long time, giving the rest of your team on the other side a numerical advantage which allows them to win their flank and reposition to the middle usually.

To understand why being chased is so much better than chasing in terms of damage output and outrading, you have to understand shell travel time, if you shoot something that's chasing you your shell travel time is reduced while theirs is increased. If your friends are fleeing, genuinely just running away without delaying the enemy and buying your strong flank time, then they're also doing it wrong, but less wrong than you taking a 1v6 fight.

My last game yesterday I was 1v6 in my kitakaze, I did this intentionally because I saw my entire team go one way. I didn't do much damage but I had the CV and 6 ships trying to kill me for 10 minutes, meanwhile my team was mopping up the other side 11v5. Wasting time to give your team a numerical advantage on the other side is one of the if not the most powerful tools in world of warships. To do this you have to make sure the enemy keeps deepthroating your bait, even in a DD you sometimes have to give the enemy false hope that they might kill you before repositioning. Leave your smoke, shoot some shells, take some chip damage, pop a smoke and leave it to make DDs torpedo an empty smoke -& make courageous BBs and hydro cruisers push into it, but you're already gone. Stuff like that.

You might die doing this for 10 minutes but by then the game is probably won because you made half the enemy team 'chase the rabbit' while your team took map control. Good players will quickly recognize that they are chasing the rabbit, stop chasing you and try to get some map control back instead. But the overwhelming majority of players will chase the rabbit to the end of the world and lose the match in the process, especially if you give them false hope every minute or so.

The problem is that the majority of the player base, including me are below average and doesnt even know the strenghts and weaknesses if their ships. If they see that there is more enemy ships than allied ships they give up that flank early on to the enemy and they dont support our dd at all. I try to support our dd exploiting Islands near caps to shield me from crossfires. But almost always happens that enemy have run us from all sides and our dd dies. After that if no CV on the game we are blind and enemy have vision control to exploit that with crossfires. Because of bad team play by my team mates the game becomes a nightmare which I dont enjoy anymore. I will play more mid tiers 7-8 games because of that 

[Deksi_4]

7 minutes ago, COPlUM said:

As I said, if they're on the weak flank with you and kiting/delaying, they are doing the right thing. If they are running to the other side they are probably not doing the right thing. You taking a 1v6 fight is definitely not the right thing either. If you want people to check it out and tell you exactly what these people are doing and why, you're going to have to share some replays like AtaIante said. In the meantime not many people will give you the benefit of the doubt because you said you are an experienced T10 player, you played 11.000 co-op games and 68 T10 games. The most likely scenario here is your teammates are kiting, you think they are running away because kiting and running away looks somewhat similar. The point of kiting is do as much damage as possible while 'running away' - You run away fast enough to not die, but slow enough so you can keep shooting, trading favorably and buy your strong flank as much time as possible.

Good players can consistently delay half a dozen ships by themselves doing this, providing the rest of their team with numerical advantage on the other side. Good players will even (within reason) try to get on the weak flank to do this because being the rabbit and making enemies chase the rabbit is an excellent way of getting wins and getting good damage numbers in the process.

They will also often avoid being on the strong flank for too long because they know it will become a game of chase the rabbit, instead reposition to the middle of the map early, anticipating the fact that that is where the match will actually be decided when everyone is done chasing their rabbit(s)

The problem is that they are running to the other side. That is plain bad. Not even worth the comment. Kitting is one thing when you delay the enemy push, but this is running away or escaping early on. But they are not good players, beacause they wouldnt end up dead and losse of the caps and the game. I know I am below average and will try to improve but things they are doing, that is not normal in confront of their team mates. 

[COPlUM]

21 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

The problem is that the majority of the player base, including me are below average and doesnt even know the strenghts and weaknesses if their ships. If they see that there is more enemy ships than allied ships they give up that flank early on to the enemy and they dont support our dd at all. I try to support our dd exploiting Islands near caps to shield me from crossfires.

The way you're describing this I'm going to assume you're in a cruiser. Delaying a flank by yourself in a cruiser or battleship without a DD (cuz he's dead) can be harder than doing it in a DD. But it is by no means impossible. The same applies, u have to hit the sweet spot for how fast you run away and how much damage you take in the process. You have to run away fast enough and mitigate enough damage that you don't get wrecked, but don't run away too fast and make it almost impossible to hit you because then they will stop chasing the rabbit, remember you want to be chased, make them feel like they have a chance of killing you before going to the middle of the map. The idea is at some point you're half dead but they are 10 minutes into the game, 15km away from the nearest objective and the other half of their team got crushed on the other side because you were a better rabbit.

It even works against stuff you can't see and stuff you will never see because your CV won't spot it or whatever. If you got one or two DDs chasing you in that pack because they want to land torpedoes on you, but you're kiting in an unpredictable pattern and don't get smashed, you just pulled two destroyers out of that match. It doesn't show up on the scoreboard but you just pulled two destroyers out of the match, pulling them out of the match with nothing to show for it is functionally the same as killing them.

Players with high winrates do this and many other kinds of bullshlt all the time, some of it doesn't show on the scoreboard but they don't care because there will be games where they can and will just pump damage instead.

This may seem strange to you but when you say "Reeeee I'm in a T8 battleship and I'm being chased by two T10 destroyers I can't even see, it's not fair fck you CV!!!!" - Someone else says "lol you boys are throwing this game to land torpedoes on me" It's a completely different mindset, mine switched when I was about 5000 games in.

Eventually you can turn kiting into a form of art, frustrating your enemy to the point where they basically kill themselves. If you dodge 7 sets of torpedoes in a battleship, bad DD players will get frustrated and shoot you. That's when you punch them in the mouth and go back to your team.

[Hirohito]

5 hours ago, Deksi_4 said:

Instead of giving each other support on holding the flank and damaging enemy ships, they at the start, in a minute retreat completely without pointing that in chat to me. When I see that they turned to go to the other side to the map, is late for my Moskva or Salem because they turn slow and that is the end for me,because I cant do a turn showing broadside at all enemy team and they focus Fire me bow on until I am dead.

You are playing it wrong here.
If you are forced into a bow-in situation in a cruiser on a weak flank, it means two things:

1. You did not pay attention to your teammates turning around to kite in time, and more importantly...
2. ... you overcommitted to the point where you are forced to stay bow in. Reel back the aggression.

This is 100% on you, not on your teammates.

[Deksi_4]

Just now, COPlUM said:

The way you're describing this I'm going to assume you're in a cruiser. Delaying a flank by yourself in a cruiser or battleship without a DD (cuz he's dead) can be harder than doing it in a DD. But it is by no means impossible. The same applies, u have to hit the sweet spot for how fast you run away and how much damage you take in the process. You have to run away fast enough and mitigate enough damage that you don't get wrecked, but don't run away too fast and make it almost impossible to hit you because then they will stop chasing the rabbit, remember you want to be chased, make them feel like they have a chance of killing you before going to the middle of the map. The idea is at some point you're half dead but they are 10 minutes into the game, 15km away from the nearest objective and the other half of their team got crushed on the other side because you were a better rabbit.

It even works against stuff you can't see and stuff you will never see because your CV won't spot it or whatever. If you got one or two DDs chasing you in that pack because they want to land torpedoes on you, but you're kiting in an unpredictable pattern and don't get smashed, you just pulled two destroyers out of that match. It doesn't show up on the scoreboard but you just pulled two destroyers out of the match, pulling them out of the match with nothing to show for it is functionally the same as killing them.

Players with high winrates do this and many other kinds of bullshlt all the time, some of it doesn't show on the scoreboard but they don't care because there will be games where they can and will just pump damage instead.

Yes I am usually playing Moskva or Salem which like you say are very hard to play if no support from team mates. You are right, I will try not to commit on any flank early on and to be in a kitting position. Maybe I should play Moskva and Salem open water? But I saw that they are not nimble like Zao for instance, so I get smash by bbs and super bbs with two salvos from 15 km. Playing cruisers is becoming very hard in this long range meta. 

[Deksi_4]

14 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

You are playing it wrong here.
If you are forced into a bow-in situation in a cruiser on a weak flank, it means two things:

1. You did not pay attention to your teammates turning around to kite in time, and more importantly...
2. ... you overcommitted to the point where you are forced to stay bow in. Reel back the aggression.

This is 100% on you, not on your teammates.

I dont have any agression. They were not kitting because they were literally escaping to the other flank living me alone. My only fault like you say is that I didnt see that coming in time. I overcomit a lot of times, but that is because I want to support our dd that is caping.I dont wont our dd to die because we loose vision then. Perhaps I should kite and let the enemies kill our dd? I will change my aproach in future games. I will be in kitting position and farming damage numbers. Seems, this is the only thing it counts in this game, because no team play in Randoms. No problem, I will adapt. 

[Hirohito]

10 minutes ago, COPlUM said:

Delaying a flank by yourself in a cruiser or battleship without a DD (cuz he's dead)

I actually prefer kiting in a BB over a DD.
Trying to land torps, even into an enemy that is pushing you, is usually hard because of how hard they are to land in the first place, and the generally terrible torp angles you will often get.
And that ignores possibly hydro as well, which  is very likely these days with so many ships having it.
In a BB however I'm slow, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing when kiting at range.
Torps will usually never connect (and if the DD tries to torp a kiting BB, he's as dumb as any and generally wasting his time), and there's the constant threat of BB crossfire if the pursuers should ever break off the chase in the open to relocate somewhere else.
There's also the longevity that BBs provide when kiting, where it's often possible to rotate heals/DCP for several minutes straight while the enemy team has little to actually show for in terms of effective damage.
Since most players in this game (from potato to unicum) love to farm damage, I'm more than happy to be that juicy damage sponge if it means I can impact the game by staying alive (which is generally not too hard when kiting around concealment range, meaning 13-15 kms away)