Tactical advice

[Deksi_4]

Hi captains 

Last couple of games I had in Randoms, were a nightmare for me. I am an average player but have a problem recently with bad tactical decisions of my team mates. The problem I am facing is the following: at the start of any match I played recently, in the first minutes of the game I am always spawn by the MM on our team weak flank, for instance on cap C. On this side usually there is only one or maximum two allied ships which are not trying anything to push and fight the enemy ships. When they see enemy ships approaching that cap, they turn away and kitte 15 km to our strong flank. In the midtime on our weak flank, enemy take easy our cap and rush me and focus fire me from all sides.The epilogue is that I die almost right away alone, because all my team leaves me alone. I try to kite with my Salem and Moskva but as you know they bleed sped in turnings and are slow like snails, so I cant even reposition or escape to reach my team mates. Can you give me an advice what to do with this behavior of my team mates? In chat when I see that they live the flank too early, I press button F9(get back) and in Chat I write them to get back because we will loose the cap, but they never ever listen. I cant defend our cap alone against Four enemy ships. Can you tell me is it the only way to kitte with them to our strong flank? Because if I dont go with them I die. This behavior is not present in the games I play on tiers 5-8. This behavior is only and always present when playing tier 10 games. Do you guys notices this weird behavior in your games lately? I play tier 10 games for two years, but this team mates behavior I see in the last two months and is present in every game I play. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Depending on the ship you sail, you need to read your teammates early on to assess their possible actions or lack there of, and more importantly, take those readings seriously and act accordingly. Avoid wishfull thinking, and commiting to a plan of your own too early on. Be ready to change your set path according to what your teammates are doing in the first 5 minutes of the match.

 

You can't change your teammates. You can only change what you do.

 

And even then, like last night for me, you will still lose, lose and lose, because even when holding your own on a flank, the other flank can collapse and you're left with nothing other then the top 3 position on the losing team roster.

[MrWastee]

33 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

Hi captains 

Last couple of games I had in Randoms, were a nightmare for me. I am an average player but have a problem recently with bad tactical decisions of my team mates. The problem I am facing is the following: at the start of any match I played recently, in the first minutes of the game I am always spawn by the MM on our team weak flank, for instance on cap C. On this side usually there is only one or maximum two allied ships which are not trying anything to push and fight the enemy ships. When they see enemy ships approaching that cap, they turn away and kitte 15 km to our strong flank. In the midtime on our weak flank, enemy take easy our cap and rush me and focus fire me from all sides.The epilogue is that I die almost right away alone, because all my team leaves me alone. I try to kite with my Salem and Moskva but as you know they bleed sped in turnings and are slow like snails, so I cant even reposition or escape to reach my team mates. Can you give me an advice what to do with this behavior of my team mates? In chat when I see that they live the flank too early, I press button F9(get back) and in Chat I write them to get back because we will loose the cap, but they never ever listen. I cant defend our cap alone against Four enemy ships. Can you tell me is it the only way to kitte with them to our strong flank? Because if I dont go with them I die. This behavior is not present in the games I play on tiers 5-8. This behavior is only and always present when playing tier 10 games. Do you guys notices this weird behavior in your games lately? I play tier 10 games for two years, but this team mates behavior I see in the last two months and is present in every game I play. 

in general i'd say u seem to have a good approach to such situation. just from the get-go i'd advice to, if such gets obvious, still to go to the weak flank. its a matter of positioning mostly by then. so, all ur team runs, turn out already. look for exit strategies. somwhow try "to kite to out-circle" them so to say and foremost try to survive long enough.

surviving is the key here. u cant change anything happening on the other, "strong" flank. all u can do is keeping as much ships busy as long as u can and hope the others will benefit from sheer number in time. go on range or in "fortress" positions which leave (covered) exits. kite em and thin em up. the more far u go away from the actual action, the more likely single ships will stop chasing u, leaving u with better odds to turn back or may even carry the flank.

 

tl;dr

still go there, be aware u're "the" target, make urself as unattractive as possible while maintaining being "the" target on that flank... or such alike

 

others might add to, tear it down or whatever. hope might helps

[Karasu_Browarszky]

As long as you aren't the first to abandon your flank, you aren't doing anything wrong. It's rarely a good idea to engage a stronger force, particularly if you are left alone to do it. Caps are important in terms of the points because you can actually lose by points even if you win in terms of ships sunk, but it's also important not to lose too many ships too early. Kiting as such is an acceptable tactic to keep the enemy engaged while trying to survive. Ideally, your stronger flank should take advantage of the situation and make gains. If that does not happen, you probably will feel frustrated, but apart from pinging and using chat in the hopes that your team responds and wakes up, there's not much you can do alone. You can play a good game and still lose, but at least a good game is still a good game and sometimes feels better than a too easy win.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

39 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

in general i'd say u seem to have a good approach to such situation. just from the get-go i'd advice to, if such gets obvious, still to go to the weak flank. its a matter of positioning mostly by then. so, all ur team runs, turn out already. look for exit strategies. somwhow try "to kite to out-circle" them so to say and foremost try to survive long enough.

surviving is the key here. u cant change anything happening on the other, "strong" flank. all u can do is keeping as much ships busy as long as u can and hope the others will benefit from sheer number in time. go on range or in "fortress" positions which leave (covered) exits. kite em and thin em up. the more far u go away from the actual action, the more likely single ships will stop chasing u, leaving u with better odds to turn back or may even carry the flank.

 

tl;dr

still go there, be aware u're "the" target, make urself as unattractive as possible while maintaining being "the" target on that flank... or such alike

 

others might add to, tear it down or whatever. hope might helps

This. Depending on the ship (long range HE spammers, long range BB kiting, low conceilment torp DD, sub or even a carrier) there's a good chance that if you can temporaily halt or slow down an enemy push for quite some time while being in the minority, the other flank (which your team automatically has the upper hand) can take and push the other flank. Once that happens you can turn and follow suit in pushing the enemy strong flank by making sure you are the (now) cross fire flank. Depending on the ship type, you can do it alone even, but it's usually better to have one or two teammates with you that understands the situation and does the same. But you have to make sure (read) that they understand the situation correctly.

 

Also, the majority flank on your team can fail. 

[WildWind84]

OK, guys, maybe you can help me also with strategy but other problem. My problem is French dds and from one side expectations of team and possiblity to filfull that expectations. 

Problem: when you are in dd, everyone expect that you rush in cap. Right now I am in Guepard, really try to learn how to play. Guepard isn't dd for imidiatelly rush and cap as soon as possible. There are also fact that I still try to learn. Result of expectations of teammates and reality is that my carma right now is in the basement probably, mostly if I don't imidiatelly rush in cap. What to do because I can't and haven't time in battle to teach most of people that all dds aren't same? Am I make mistake somewhere in understood of French dds or? Tnx for answers.

Sry for low level of English.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

its hard to give advice as most is based on different situations in battles.

The other issue is not knowing how you play and what potential mistakes you personally make.

 

So post some replays of games you feel like you need advice on.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Guepard, IIRC, is one of the better French DD's overall. Rushing a cap without support is never a good idea unless you are very skilled in DD vs. DD situations. A lot depends on who gets spotted first, because that gives you a distinct advantage. If I'm on a DD and expect to have a better concealment, I might only spot the enemy DD and not engage myself, letting my support handle the DD.

[Sir_Sinksalot]

That uneven spread is a problem and needs to be adjusted by devs imho.

 

To expand on what you touched on. 

 

At the start of some battles, there will be only around 2-3 players spawned alone on one flank and somewhat isolated from the rest of their team. The core of the team including a CV(if any) and sometimes the only DD will be grouped in a spawn at the other flank with some in the middle which tend to drift to the stronger flank at the start of the battle making a bad situation worse.

 

Now, when the battle starts it should come as no surprise that nobody in their right minds would want to remain on the isolated flank with just 2-3 ships and without CV support and sometimes even without a DD which means that at least one of those 2/3 players is going to sensibly cut across to join the main core of the team or at best, drift across to the middle of the map to have at least some little bit of support. If one goes, the other 1 or 2 will inevitably follow and rightfully so since it just moronic to blindly push a flank alone or with just one other teammate at the start of a battle and end up being focused and CV focused/spotted. 

 

So what that translates into is a massive opening on one side of the map, this flank with now no ships and a huge cluster-f* on the other side, total lemming train. It's like a wheeling effect where both teams end up rotating in the same clockwise or anti-clockwise direction, push one flank and ignoring the other. Sometimes that's actually good for battle development but... can't help but feel it's more negative than positive.

 

Any time I've seen the flank with just 2-3 players spawning on it daring to push or defend that flank, 9 times out of 10 got they hard focused by a CV and were mashed so it only ever serves to influence players to go "F that shhh, I'm outta here!" at the start of the battle. Basically following the flank your CV and core of team are focusing tends to be a sound decision, for intel on enemy movements, targets to shoot, support and the CV can deploy fighters to help counter the enemy CV attacking. All in all, ain't nobody hanging around that 2-3 ship flank and it needs adjusting or we'll just keep seeing those migrations and lemming trains.   

[MrWastee]

20 minutes ago, WildWind84 said:

OK, guys, maybe you can help me also with strategy but other problem. My problem is French dds and from one side expectations of team and possiblity to filfull that expectations. 

Problem: when you are in dd, everyone expect that you rush in cap. Right now I am in Guepard, really try to learn how to play. Guepard isn't dd for imidiatelly rush and cap as soon as possible. There are also fact that I still try to learn. Result of expectations of teammates and reality is that my carma right now is in the basement probably, mostly if I don't imidiatelly rush in cap. What to do because I can't and haven't time in battle to teach most of people that all dds aren't same? Am I make mistake somewhere in understood of French dds or? Tnx for answers.

Sry for low level of English.

ignore them. solved

 

*and make urself aware: carma is worthless. there's no reliability in gaining or losing it, just subjective opinions. so basically, not caring about it at all saves calories and synapses...

[Taliesn]

Watch what the friendly DD in your flank is doing (if there is one) and do not, under any circumstances, overextend.

If you are on the weak side assume you'll be doing a fighting retreat. It's what most teammates will assume too, and rightly so. Don't give them an early point lead, the red team will have its own weak flank to contend with.

Given a big enough sample, your teammates on the strong side should be forcing the outnumbered red ships on the other side of the map more often than not. So the side doing the fewer mistakes should win.

[Deksi_4]

1 hour ago, MrWastee said:

in general i'd say u seem to have a good approach to such situation. just from the get-go i'd advice to, if such gets obvious, still to go to the weak flank. its a matter of positioning mostly by then. so, all ur team runs, turn out already. look for exit strategies. somwhow try "to kite to out-circle" them so to say and foremost try to survive long enough.

surviving is the key here. u cant change anything happening on the other, "strong" flank. all u can do is keeping as much ships busy as long as u can and hope the others will benefit from sheer number in time. go on range or in "fortress" positions which leave (covered) exits. kite em and thin em up. the more far u go away from the actual action, the more likely single ships will stop chasing u, leaving u with better odds to turn back or may even carry the flank.

 

tl;dr

still go there, be aware u're "the" target, make urself as unattractive as possible while maintaining being "the" target on that flank... or such alike

 

others might add to, tear it down or whatever. hope might helps

Thanks

[tocqueville8]

This is more strategic than tactical, but yes, if you can't defend a flank alone then don't defend the flank alone.

Ask your teammates to stay, but if they don't then start kiting: your team should win the strong flank, or at least stall it, and the enemies chasing you will do so at different speeds, so some will overextend and be easier to take on.

[Deksi_4]

53 minutes ago, Europizza said:

This. Depending on the ship (long range HE spammers, long range BB kiting, low conceilment torp DD, sub or even a carrier) there's a good chance that if you can temporaily halt or slow down an enemy push for quite some time while being in the minority, the other flank (which your team automatically has the upper hand) can take and push the other flank. Once that happens you can turn and follow suit in pushing the enemy strong flank by making sure you are the (now) cross fire flank. Depending on the ship type, you can do it alone even, but it's usually better to have one or two teammates with you that understands the situation and does the same. But you have to make sure (read) that they understand the situation correctly.

 

Also, the majority flank on your team can fail. 

This happen almost in all my games, that not only my weak flank colapsses, our strong flank always colapsses to. Like you all said, I will try to approach carefully in those situations and will try to be alive as much as pissible. The thing that was bothering me is that almost every game my team mates early on abandon the flank and being alone I can only try to survive as much as pissible. 

[WildWind84]

19 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

ignore them. solved

 

*and make urself aware: carma is worthless. there's no reliability in gaining or losing it, just subjective opinions. so basically, not caring about it at all saves calories and synapses...

Thank you :)

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

French DD's are late cappers. Ignore the armchair generals, 100%.

[Deksi_4]

49 minutes ago, WildWind84 said:

OK, guys, maybe you can help me also with strategy but other problem. My problem is French dds and from one side expectations of team and possiblity to filfull that expectations. 

Problem: when you are in dd, everyone expect that you rush in cap. Right now I am in Guepard, really try to learn how to play. Guepard isn't dd for imidiatelly rush and cap as soon as possible. There are also fact that I still try to learn. Result of expectations of teammates and reality is that my carma right now is in the basement probably, mostly if I don't imidiatelly rush in cap. What to do because I can't and haven't time in battle to teach most of people that all dds aren't same? Am I make mistake somewhere in understood of French dds or? Tnx for answers.

Sry for low level of English.

@WildWind84It is an ok tactic not to rush caps early on especially in French dds. Reason is that most other dds have better concealment than you, so you will be outspoted most of the time. French dds in general arent very good to early cap contesting because no smoke, means no possibility to disingage. So in a Franch dd the positioning and map reading is most imoortant. At the start of the game try to see if you are on a weak or strong flank, and which ships are in the enemy team. You should first know what your ship Guepard can and what cant do. French cruiser have larger turning radius than that of other nations. So play conservatively at the start because you must do like that to survive. Players that give you bad karma, possibly havent played french dds at all, so that could be the reason. Try to improve your gameplay and try not to be killed to early because the golden dd rule is that longer you are alive, for longer you will be able to provide spoting for your team and you and your team can only benefit from that. Good luck captain! 

[WildWind84]

Thank you all guys. And yes, ofc I make mistakes, I am not running from that, I am aware of that. Basically, to fulfill expectations or because I am only dd in team or we have 2 dds (on every flank is one dd), got myself in that trouble. Go in empty cap after few sec. around and then in cap got spotted (yes, I am aware of concealment of french dds, but...). 

[WildWind84]

And yes, I like very very much french dds and that is why I try to learn, not only buy Marceau for coal or fxp or speed grind french line. They are fun, sometimes crazy and pretty much ok against subs :) This last reason I loved most :D

[Deksi_4]

Just now, WildWind84 said:

Thank you all guys. And yes, ofc I make mistakes, I am not running from that, I am aware of that. Basically, to fulfill expectations or because I am only dd in team or we have 2 dds (on every flank is one dd), got myself in that trouble. Go in empty cap after few sec. around and then in cap got spotted (yes, I am aware of concealment of french dds, but...). 

Not listen to them, play french dds like lite cruisers early game. Try to spot for your team as much as you can. French dds have rainbow like balistics so try to find an island from you can lob shells at the enemy ships. The biger problem is when there are not Islands. That will come to you by experience. Try to be Fire suport to your but early on dont contest caps. You dont have to care about their expetations, you have to help them by doing your spoting with staying alive as much as pissible. Guepard like all french dds have high alfa strike torps, so later as game evolves you can torp enemy cruisers and bbs. Because at that tier there is a lot of slow bbs. 

[MrWastee]

19 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

This happen almost in all my games, that not only my weak flank colapsses, our strong flank always colapsses to. Like you all said, I will try to approach carefully in those situations and will try to be alive as much as pissible. The thing that was bothering me is that almost every game my team mates early on abandon the flank and being alone I can only try to survive as much as pissible. 

play in div. it's a teamgame, team up. i stopped playing solo quite some ago, only ranked bronze. not to pamper wr lol, simply coz it's a) way more fun b) way less frustrating ;).

[Deksi_4]

53 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Guepard, IIRC, is one of the better French DD's overall. Rushing a cap without support is never a good idea unless you are very skilled in DD vs. DD situations. A lot depends on who gets spotted first, because that gives you a distinct advantage. If I'm on a DD and expect to have a better concealment, I might only spot the enemy DD and not engage myself, letting my support handle the DD.

This. 

[Deksi_4]

2 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

play in div. it's a teamgame, team up. i stopped playing solo quite some ago, only ranked bronze. not to pamper wr lol, simply coz it's a) way more fun b) way less frustrating ;).

You are right, I will probably do this, or I can play more ranked. I didnt play ranked often but when I play, ranked was a lot better. Perhaps smaller teams or better captains, who knows🙂

[MrWastee]

5 minutes ago, Deksi_4 said:

You are right, I will probably do this, or I can play more ranked. I didnt play ranked often but when I play, ranked was a lot better. Perhaps smaller teams or better captains, who knows🙂

nah, it's a sheetshow .... but at least easier to manage for one alone so to say. u'll see the horrors still sadly.

 

on a note to u and @WildWind84: u 2 are a quite refreshing experience for this forum, thank u !

[Deksi_4]

56 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

That uneven spread is a problem and needs to be adjusted by devs imho.

 

To repeat what you touched on. 

 

At the start of some battles, there will be only around 2-3 players spawned alone on one flank and somewhat isolated from the rest of their team. The core of the team including a CV(if is there is one) and sometimes the only DD will be grouped in a spawn at the other flank with some in the middle which tend to drift to the stronger flank at the start of the battle making a bad situation worse.

 

Now, when the battle starts it should come as no surprise that nobody in their right minds would want to remain on the isolated flank with just 2-3 ships and without CV support and sometimes even without a DD which means that at least one of those 2/3 players is going to sensibly cut across to join the main core of the team or at best, drift across to the middle of the map to have at least some little bit of support. If one goes, the other 1 or 2 will inevitably follow and rightfully so since it just moronic to blindly push a flank alone or with just one other teammate at the start of a battle and end up being focused and CV focused/spotted. 

 

So what that translates into is a massive opening on one side of the map, this flank with now no ships and a huge cluster-f* on the other side, total lemming train. It's like a wheeling effect where both teams end up rotating in the same clockwise or anti-clockwise direction, push one flank and ignoring the other. Sometimes that's actually good for battle development but... can't help but feel it's more negative than positive.

 

Any time I've seen the flank with just 2-3 players spawning on it daring to push or defend that flank, 9 times out of 10 got they hard focused by a CV and were mashed so it only ever serves to influence players to go "F that shhh, I'm outta here!" at the start of the battle. Basically following the flank your CV and core of team are focusing tends to be a sound decision, for intel on enemy movements, targets to shoot, support and the CV can deploy fighters to help counter the enemy CV attacking. All in all, ain't nobody hanging around that 2-3 ship flank and it needs adjusting or we'll just keep seeing those migrations and lemming trains.   

Uneven spread is the key problem. Everything you said in this post is the situations in almost all of my games. Until WG hopefully resolves this, I will try to evade that situations early on and to kitte with the rest of allied ships which are changing cap. Thanks for such a good explanation.