deleted post

[SV_Kompresor]

11 minutes ago, LukkaiCH said:

 

The fact that this makes it a PanEuropean line. Oh wait, we already have that!

And we're about to get....ring ding ding, a second one in a few months.

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 53 Minuten, SV_Kompresor sagte:

And we're about to get....ring ding ding, a second one in a few months.

Which is where more k .u. k. ships could well fit in at the lower tiers. But a full line of their own? There just isn't enough material, simply because the realm in question did not exist anymore for the later tier levels. Not changed government and political system as with others. Actually ceased to exist. The PanAmerican nations that were mentioned in this thread? They actually did exist all the way through WWI, WWII, the Cold War... We do have some basic level of justification there that is simply missing for the Double Monarchy.

[SV_Kompresor]

3 minutes ago, LukkaiCH said:

Which is where more k .u. k. ships could well fit in at the lower tiers. But a full line of their own? There just isn't enough material, simply because the realm in question did not exist anymore for the later tier levels. Not changed government and political system as with others. Actually ceased to exist. The PanAmerican nations that were mentioned in this thread? They actually did exist all the way through WWI, WWII, the Cold War... We do have some basic level of justification there that is simply missing for the Double Monarchy.

I can't be bothered repeating half the thread. Quote OP if you want to discuss tier 10 k.u.k. ships (or whatever) not me as that's not what I said in the first place.

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 2 Minuten, SV_Kompresor sagte:

I can't be bothered repeating half the thread. Quote OP if you want to discuss tier 10 k.u.k. ships (or whatever) not me as that's not what I said in the first place.

OP asked for Austro-Hungarian ship line. Which is synonymous with k. u. k. ship line. What you suggested, as I already said, was a PanEuropean line. Even though you originally claimed it as Austro-Hungarian, it was only partially that.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Pardon me for asking a stupid question, but since the A-H navy in its entirety was on 28th October 1918 signed over to Yugoslavia, wouldn't that mean that we could have a continuous line switching at some point from having K.u.K. ships to having Yugoslav ships?

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 7 Stunden, Karasu_Hidesuke sagte:

Pardon me for asking a stupid question, but since the A-H navy in its entirety was on 28th October 1918 signed over to Yugoslavia, wouldn't that mean that we could have a continuous line switching at some point from having K.u.K. ships to having Yugoslav ships?

Well, just about anything big that wasn't sunk before actually went to Italy, France and England at the end of the war. Yugoslavia ended up with one coastal defense ship and 12 torpedo boats for seagoing combat ships, that's it.

 

Also by that logic, Commonwealth ships should be British instead. I know, not much of a difference in numbers of ships reassigned. And it would actually make more sense, since not all of Yugoslavia had prior been part of Austria-Hungary.

 

Such a thing as part of a PanEuropean line on the other hand? I can absolutely see that.

[fumtu]

8 hours ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Pardon me for asking a stupid question, but since the A-H navy in its entirety was on 28th October 1918 signed over to Yugoslavia, wouldn't that mean that we could have a continuous line switching at some point from having K.u.K. ships to having Yugoslav ships?

 

Ok, then can you answer me this, if there is enough ships to provide consistent Yugoslav sub-branch in Pan European line, why not just go with this. Especially considering that there is huge 14 years gap between end of Austro Hungary and first Yugoslav destroyer Dubrovnik? Why would it have to be tied for Austro Hungary? After all, Yugoslavia did not get any of Austro Hungarian DDs, it does not continue with designs or shipbuilding programs from old empire, Yugoslav ships were designed by others, like France and Britain. So why do it in the first place? Especially as there is no chance to provide BB or cruiser line at all, not even in the fantasy world. 

 

This kind of line is not realistic at all. We can speculate here and give reasons for and against but in the end, WG will not create a separate tree for this, nor will branch a line from Tatra in Pan European line. Just like new PE destroyer branch is showing. In which, one of potential ships from Yugoslav branch is already used so .... I guess that put end to that story. And what could be used as a main point of the line, large guns, is already taken by that line. But there could not be regular Yugoslav T9 or T10 anyway, unless, WG is their infinite wisdom, assume that, since Yugoslavia ships are already designed in France, they might also order a Mogador class destroyers, which might escape to the UK when Germany invaded France, might be returned to Yugoslavia after the war and might be finished by some design that would provide consistency of branch. Otherwise, there is nothing to be put instead.

 

Austro Hungary could provide some premiums or low or mid tiers designs in European cruiser and BB line of PE tree, that is all.   

[Karasu_Browarszky]

2 hours ago, LukkaiCH said:

Well, just about anything big that wasn't sunk before actually went to Italy, France and England at the end of the war. Yugoslavia ended up with one coastal defense ship and 12 torpedo boats for seagoing combat ships, that's it.

 

Also by that logic, Commonwealth ships should be British instead. I know, not much of a difference in numbers of ships reassigned. And it would actually make more sense, since not all of Yugoslavia had prior been part of Austria-Hungary.

 

Such a thing as part of a PanEuropean line on the other hand? I can absolutely see that.

 

53 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Ok, then can you answer me this, if there is enough ships to provide consistent Yugoslav sub-branch in Pan European line, why not just go with this. Especially considering that there is huge 14 years gap between end of Austro Hungary and first Yugoslav destroyer Dubrovnik? Why would it have to be tied for Austro Hungary? After all, Yugoslavia did not get any of Austro Hungarian DDs, it does not continue with designs or shipbuilding programs from old empire, Yugoslav ships were designed by others, like France and Britain. So why do it in the first place? Especially as there is no chance to provide BB or cruiser line at all, not even in the fantasy world. 

 

This kind of line is not realistic at all. We can speculate here and give reasons for and against but in the end, WG will not create a separate tree for this, nor will branch a line from Tatra in Pan European line. Just like new PE destroyer branch is showing. In which, one of potential ships from Yugoslav branch is already used so .... I guess that put end to that story. And what could be used as a main point of the line, large guns, is already taken by that line. But there could not be regular Yugoslav T9 or T10 anyway, unless, WG is their infinite wisdom, assume that, since Yugoslavia ships are already designed in France, they might also order a Mogador class destroyers, which might escape to the UK when Germany invaded France, might be returned to Yugoslavia after the war and might be finished by some design that would provide consistency of branch. Otherwise, there is nothing to be put instead.

 

Austro Hungary could provide some premiums or low or mid tiers designs in European cruiser and BB line of PE tree, that is all.   

 

Very good points. The 'technical' link between the navies is, of course, Croatia. The A-H and Yugoslav ships should be in the same tree, whether that would be a separate tree of their own or some Pan-European tree would depend on how WG sees these trees and how they are constructed. Their general approach has been to produce 'complete' trees in the sense of them having all the tiers, all the classes etc. which means, of course, there wouldn't be enough in those terms to fill up a single A-H/Yugoslav tree.

 

The same applies to any of the smaller navies in Europe and other parts of the world. Some, like the Dutch, had at least plans for dreadnaughts/battleships but others didn't even have those. And typically even the ones who had the plans only had them in either the pre-WW1 era or the interwar era, very few countries had plans for BB's in post-WW2 era. Only one BB was ever constructed after WW2, and not even all the cruiser designs the various navies had were ever implemented. Very few navies again operated or had designs for CV's for that matter.

 

My approach originally would have been not to try to make complete trees, but WG has chosen a different approach. That means some sort of multinational trees are pretty much the only technically viable option for these smaller navies. Just how they make that work, I don't know, because there will be an imbalance in terms of ship classes favoring smaller vessels. One solution that I can think of would be to do the opposite of high tier branching what we now have with some of the bigger navies' trees in the game, and have 'roots' on these multinational trees that would meet somewhere in the mid tier region, sooner for the BB's and CV's and later for the cruisers and DD's. Note that I'm not mentioning the unmentionables.

[fumtu]

1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

The 'technical' link between the navies is, of course, Croatia.

 

Is it tho? Seems like people often forgot that Austro Hungary also controlled part of the coast that is now belong to Italy, or to be more specific Trieste and area around it. In fact, the most important shipbuilding company was there, Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino or STT. Majority of A-H battleships were built there, like all three ships of Radetzky class and three out of four Tegetthoff class. Only reason why Szent István was built in Fiume (Rijeka), is as concession to Hungary. Cruisers are build in Marinearsenal Pola (today Pula) and in smaller part in STT, CNT, Monfalcone and Fiume. But even here. for the period which this game covers, there is a little connection with Croatia as Pola/Pula after ww1 become part of Italy, only to join Croatia and Yugoslavia after ww2. Destroyers and Subs were built in different cities like Trieste, Monfalcone, Pola, Fiume and Porto Re (Kraljevica, Hrvatska). Also equipment for the ships, like guns. was built all over Empire and Germany.

 

Yugoslav ship were mostly build outside, in UK, Germany or France, only Beograd Class and Split were actually built in Split based on foreign design and supervision. The only warships that I could find that were built in some of former A-H main shipyards is Albona class of minelayers in Kraljevica, but those ships are actually laid down in A-H and finished in Yugoslavia. 

 

A-H ships are mostly built by Croats and Slovenians, and operated by them, but beside that there is not much "technical" connection between A-H and Yugoslavia. considering their navies, except the fact that part of it once was included into A-H. But is ownership of the same territory enough reason to connect some countries into one line? After all Greece was part of Ottoman Empire so maybe we should have unified Turko-Greece line, that sounds like fun.   

[Karasu_Browarszky]

2 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Is it tho? Seems like people often forgot that Austro Hungary also controlled part of the coast that is now belong to Italy, or to be more specific Trieste and area around it. In fact, the most important shipbuilding company was there, Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino or STT. Majority of A-H battleships were built there, like all three ships of Radetzky class and three out of four Tegetthoff class. Only reason why Szent István was built in Fiume (Rijeka), is as concession to Hungary. Cruisers are build in Marinearsenal Pola (today Pula) and in smaller part in STT, CNT, Monfalcone and Fiume. But even here. for the period which this game covers, there is a little connection with Croatia as Pola/Pula after ww1 become part of Italy, only to join Croatia and Yugoslavia after ww2. Destroyers and Subs were built in different cities like Trieste, Monfalcone, Pola, Fiume and Porto Re (Kraljevica, Hrvatska).  

 

Yugoslav ship were mostly build outside, in UK, Germany or France, only Beograd Class and Split were actually built in Split. The only warships that I could find that were built in some of former A-H main shipyards is Albona class of minelayers in Kraljevica, but those ships are actually laid down in A-H and finished in Yugoslavia. 

 

A-H ships are mostly built by Crats and Slovenians, and operated by them, but beside that there is not much "technical" connection between A-H and Yugoslavia. considering their navies, except the fact that part of it once was included into A-H. But is ownership of the same territory enough reason to connect some countries into one line? After all Greece was part of Ottoman Empire so maybe we should have unified Turko-Greece line, that sounds like fun.   

 

The link between A-H and Croatia is much clearer and stronger than between A-H and Italy, despite territorial 'overlap'. With Croatia, you have a major territorial connection, naval operational connection, and, importantly, a personnel connection that bridges the transition between two national navies. I don't know if there was a similar 'exhange' at any point between Greece and the Ottoman Empire...

 

Having said that, I think a combined multinational tree option will work better overall. I'm just not sure how much they can expand a 'pan-European' tree until it becomes an umanageable mess.

[fumtu]

1 minute ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

The link between A-H and Croatia is much clearer and stronger than between A-H and Italy, despite territorial 'overlap'.

 

How come? Large part of Italy were over time part of A-H just like Croatia and majority of naval shipyards actually went to Italy. And Croatia did not become independent state after ww1 but part of Yugoslavia, so you need to draw connection between those two instead. And Yugoslavia was not just Croatia if you remember as Serbia has main role in it, especially in period between two world wars.

 

1 minute ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

With Croatia, you have a major territorial connection, naval operational connection, and, importantly, a personnel connection that bridges the transition between two national navies.

 

Again, it is not Croatia who had that but Yugoslavia and that might be true in first years after ww1 but not later. And what does any of those has with content of this game if it is not ship programs that are connecting them? Yugoslav Navy went in completely different direction as it does not had a need for large navy nor had expertise to built large warships on their own and turned to the west. It is ridicules to base lines on this. This is not similar case to Commonwealth line at all.

 

I have feeling that we again coming to stupid reasoning why should A-H and Yugoslavia be part of the same line, without providing a single solid proposal or concept of the line, and just because part of Yugoslavia was part of A-H at some point of time.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

11 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

How come? Large part of Italy were over time part of A-H just like Croatia and majority of naval shipyards actually went to Italy. And Croatia did not become independent state after ww1 but part of Yugoslavia, so you need to draw connection between those two instead. And Yugoslavia was not just Croatia if you remember as Serbia has main role in it, especially in period between two world wars.

 

 

Again, it is not Croatia who had that but Yugoslavia and that might be true in first years after ww1 but not later. And what does any of those has with content of this game if it is not ship programs that are connecting them? Yugoslav Navy went in completely different direction as it does not had a need for large navy nor had expertise to built large warships on their own and turned to the west. It is ridicules to base lines on this. This is not similar case to Commonwealth line at all.

 

I have feeling that we again coming to stupid reasoning why should A-H and Yugoslavia be part of the same line, without providing a single solid proposal or concept of the line, and just because part of Yugoslavia was part of A-H at some point of time.

 

The first step in the creation of the new navy was the decision by emperor Charles to transfer the entirety of the navy over to the council in Zagreb meaning there is the combined authority of the two nations behind the creation of the new navy. The first flag raised on the Pula was the Croatian flag. Two of the prominent commanders, Vukovic and Prica had both served in A-H navy, and in essence the overhelming majority of the navy personnel consisted of Croats and Slovenes (with their A-H ranks recognized). To me this transfer establishes a clear link that bridges the traditions of the two navies, even though it more properly applies to the Croatian component in the Royal Yugoslav Navy than the navy in its entirety, but the link is there nonetheless.

[fumtu]

17 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

The first step in the creation of the new navy was the decision by emperor Charles to transfer the entirety of the navy over to the council in Zagreb meaning there is the combined authority of the two nations behind the creation of the new navy.

 

So tell me how many ships of those actually ended in the Yugoslav Navy and how many of those can be use in the game?

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Just now, fumtu said:

 

So tell me how many ships of those actually ended in the Yugoslav Navy and how many of those can be use in the game?

 

Approapriate for this game? Practically none, but that wasn't what I was pointing out.

[fumtu]

1 minute ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Approapriate for this game? Practically none, but that wasn't what I was pointing out.

 

So ... waste of time. Thank you have a nice day.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 minute ago, fumtu said:

 

So ... waste of time. Thank you have a nice day.

 

Well you talk about ships, I talk about navies. You first need a navy before you can have any ships. WG could 'patch' it with fantasy ships, or fantasy refits for older A-H ships. This isn't a problem, the problem is more to do with the creation of multiple trees and/or multinational trees and how they can be made to work within the game tier and class system.

[fumtu]

1 minute ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

This isn't a problem, the problem is more to do with the creation of multiple trees and/or multinational trees and how they can be made to work within the game tier and class system.

 

What is a problem with multinational tree exactly?

[Yedwy]

19 minutes ago, fumtu said:

What is a problem with multinational tree exactly?

None, I personally am fine with say Radetsky as T2 (can be premium like Mikasa) and Teggethoff as T4/5 then Erzatz Monarch as T5/6 (depending on the level of "Hull B" stuff) and filling the rest of the line with other european nations...

 

Same for cruisers and DDs

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

 

What is a problem with multinational tree exactly?

 

Personally, I'm not opposed to multinational trees, per se. There's a minor issue of having mismatched captains all over the ships, and a bigger issue of still there not being either real ships, or real designs as far as I know to fill up the tree all the way to tier X. What would we have in for a tier X CV or a BB there, aircraft carrier Concorde and battleship Charlemagne?

 

Since the operative word as far as this game goes seems to be fantasy, if you want ships and if you aren't too particular about the state they are in, I can get you ships. There are the ships that my somewhat distant cousin admiral Mikhail Berens (he has an older brother but we don't talk about him...) commanded and sailed to Bizerte, Tunisia with. Russian ships would fit very well in the Royal Yugoslav Navy, and could receive French style refits to make them serviceable in the interwar years (and tiers).

[Port_Authority]

There is no problem here, AH did not design any big ships after the very beginning of 1900s. Both crown nations lost sea access after 1918. There is 0 drawing board stuff that could be used above Tier 5.

Even WG vapourware has a ceratin foothold. Like "this ship would be used against German heavy cruisers" or "this is a further development of xy". No such thing with AH, they ceased to exist in naval world, the kingdom signed off its remaining fleet to Croatia in 1918.

Now if we had an ironclad to dreadnought era battle mode, things would be different...unfortunately we don't.

[fumtu]

47 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Personally, I'm not opposed to multinational trees, per se. There's a minor issue of having mismatched captains all over the ships, ...

 

What mismatched captains? You mean like having a captain that should be a Swedish on Greek ship?  I mean that is not a big deal, you can always recruit proper national captain for such ship.

 

Quote

... and a bigger issue of still there not being either real ships, or real designs as far as I know to fill up the tree all the way to tier X.

 

Well Pan Asian T10 DD is real ships and current Pan European T10 DD is real ship. You can even make Pan American T10 DD a real ship. But none of countries in those lines could provide a full line of the ships by themselves, with maybe exception of Sweden. Spain and Dutch are different cases as both could provide a real T10 DD. For bigger ship there is an issue for every line. So all those lines separated would not be able to exist on its own. Just like Yugoslav could not, without using fantasy ships as there is nothing to finish line. There is just to many holes for fill, and, for the most part, lanes would be pretty repetitive.

 

Quote

Russian ships would fit very well in the Royal Yugoslav Navy, and could receive French style refits to make them serviceable in the interwar years (and tiers).

 

How could Russian ships fit very well in the  Royal Yugoslav Navy? By the time RYN was formed, there was no more Russia but Soviet Union, and than Yugoslav government had no love for Communist. So there is a zero chance to get a ship from there. Not even in fantasy world. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

14 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

What mismatched captains? You mean like having a captain that should be a Swedish on Greek ship?  I mean that is not a big deal, you can always recruit proper national captain for such ship.

 

A minor issue, I agree.

 

Quote

 

Well Pan Asian T10 DD is real ships and current Pan European T10 DD is real ship. You can even make Pan American T10 DD a real ship. But none of countries in those lines could provide a full line of the ships by themselves, with maybe exception of Sweden. Spain and Dutch are different cases as both could provide a real T10 DD. For bigger ship there is an issue for every line. So all those lines separated would not be able to exist on its own. Just like Yugoslav could not, without using fantasy ships as there is nothing to finish line. There is just to many holes for fill, and, for the most part, lanes would be pretty repetitive.

 

DD's are easier to find, than cruisers, which in turn are much easier than BB's or CV's.

 

Quote

 

How could Russian ships fit very well in the  Royal Yugoslav Navy? By the time RYN was formed, there was no more Russia but Soviet Union, and than Yugoslav government had no love for Communist. So there is a zero chance to get a ship from there. Not even in fantasy world. 

 

The ships would have been docked in Bizerte. In reality, of course, the French handed them over to the Soviets (this is where the older brother comes in...) and they got scrapped. Case closed. In terms of fantasy, however, the ships could have been delivered to the Yugoslavs. By the French, or by a Russian authority had one existed as it still existed in 1920 to 1921 and been possession of the ships. They could, for instance, have sailed to the Adriatic instead of Tunisia. We would also completely disregard the Soviets and their claims on those ships. Then, it would work, and it's not like this game or the ships stay true to history anyway.