commander Request to add a historical commander

[UltraShirou]

2 hours ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Firstly, the Soviet officers are not referred to as jackals because they are warm and furry. Secondly, the tradition of inhuman brutality was borne out of the evils of the civil war. Thirdly, the distrust between the officers and men has its roots even further back in time. For instance, on the vessels of Imperial Russian Navy, the officers were aware of the risk of mutiny. With harsh discipline, cramped quarters and bad food, as they say, the ships must have felt a lot like floating prison colonies.

 

In other words, with the revolution they went from bad to worse.

Well, i know this version of our history. The legends of the wild russians with their (our) wild traditions. Inhuman brutality, killing kittens and eating babies. Yeah-yeah, just like that. And brutal soviet officers in their grim coats made of the skin ripped off from innocent civilians. Cool story, bro. I really love Cold War propaganda, so charming.

[_Mad_Thom_]

https://www.google.com/search?q=soviet+soldiers+rape+germany&sxsrf=ALiCzsaGlBTeAXxvzlGGaKdKB2uarB6IWA%3A1669927465673&source=hp&ei=KRKJY9DnJpLF8gLSpZ_4Bw&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAY4kgOXDjBFPUELCKSd9M9K62aAkpak_X&ved=0ahUKEwiQoI_LpNn7AhWSolwKHdLSB38Q4dUDCBI&oq=soviet+soldiers+rape+germany&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAw6BAgjECc6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDOggILhCxAxCDAToLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CwguEIMBENQCELEDOggIABCABBCxAzoLCC4Q1AIQsQMQgAQ6CAgAELEDEIMBOgUIABCABDoRCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QMQ1AI6DgguEK8BEMcBELEDEIAEOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARCvAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQ1AI6BQguEIAEOggILhDUAhCABFAAWMNkYLt6aABwAHgAgAFyiAG6FJIBBTE4LjEwmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Prussian nights will also provide the anxious reader with some of that charming cold war propaganda.

[UltraShirou]

1 hour ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=soviet+soldiers+rape+germany&sxsrf=ALiCzsaGlBTeAXxvzlGGaKdKB2uarB6IWA%3A1669927465673&source=hp&ei=KRKJY9DnJpLF8gLSpZ_4Bw&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAY4kgOXDjBFPUELCKSd9M9K62aAkpak_X&ved=0ahUKEwiQoI_LpNn7AhWSolwKHdLSB38Q4dUDCBI&oq=soviet+soldiers+rape+germany&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAw6BAgjECc6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDOggILhCxAxCDAToLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6CwguEIMBENQCELEDOggIABCABBCxAzoLCC4Q1AIQsQMQgAQ6CAgAELEDEIMBOgUIABCABDoRCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQ0QMQ1AI6DgguEK8BEMcBELEDEIAEOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARCvAToOCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQ1AI6BQguEIAEOggILhDUAhCABFAAWMNkYLt6aABwAHgAgAFyiAG6FJIBBTE4LjEwmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

And? Wanna talk about Belarus? 36th division? Babin Yar? I can go on and on with this list. You know, my friend, i dont think this is the right place, but... Everything has the roots. I'm not going to justify historical facts, but let's think for a moment where and why all this started. History is sometimes very unpleasant thing. And you need a lot of patience to separate facts from opinions, to find out reasons and motivation. I'm not justifying what was done, i will not decline it was done, but i know exactly why that was done. So your friendly reminder will make no effect.

 

To tell the truth my grandparents were much less tolerant in such questions. And i cant blame them, quite the opposite. As well as i will not reveal their opinion to you, but you may guess.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

When it comes to those ugly facts about history, I have found it be the case that practically all countries, every administration, the political establishment all intend to either falsify history, downplay or completely bury any unpleasant truths and cold hard facts while also whitewashing any villains into national heros. Everything gets spinned and presented in the best possible light to fit the established narratives. Common people usually become willing accomplices in this process. As I said, this is not the case with any single country, but applies to all of them.

[UltraShirou]

31 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

When it comes to those ugly facts about history, I have found it be the case that practically all countries, every administration, the political establishment all intend to either falsify history, downplay or completely bury any unpleasant truths and cold hard facts while also whitewashing any villains into national heros. Everything gets spinned and presented in the best possible light to fit the established narratives. Common people usually become willing accomplices in this process. As I said, this is not the case with any single country, but applies to all of them.

Yep, that's truth. But also (in this particular case) the truth is that the "common people" have seen everything with their own eyes, so they had no need in any indoctrination to form their opinion. And i assure you, that opinion, their conclusions and intentions may be much more unpleasant then what was happened. But bloody soviet officers let that not happen, in full scale. Every family here has at least two graves beside ancestral to take care of.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

6 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

Yep, that's truth. But also (in this particular case) the truth is that the "common people" have seen everything with their own eyes, so they had no need in any indoctrination to form their opinion. And i assure you, that opinion, their conclusions and intentions may be much more unpleasant then what was happened. But bloody soviet officers let that not happen, in full scale. Every family here has at least two graves beside ancestral to take care of.

 

The thing is, they haven't seen it all with their own eyes. If I had, they wouldn't be around to tell about it. Or they wouldn't tell, because they were part of it. The graves part I can agree with.

 

The indoctrination can be subtle, not necessarily coercive. People simply choose to buy the narrative, either because they don't know what happened, or they don't care, or they think it's better for them not to care.

[UltraShirou]

1 minute ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

The thing is, they haven't seen it all with their own eyes. If I had, they wouldn't be around to tell about it. Or they wouldn't tell, because they were part of it.

Do you really think that history books or archives contain all the facts and eyewitness accounts to the last?

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 minute ago, UltraShirou said:

Do you really think that history books or archives contain all the facts and eyewitness accounts to the last?

 

No eyewitness account is complete by itself. It takes a competent historian with an access to archived material to be able to present an interpretation of the facts as they are recorded. Not even necessarily everything that is recorded is true, mind you. What they try to accomplish is to present as objective a truth as possible based on material that is at least in part very subjective.

 

What actually gets published, and even more so what you will read in history text books is an entirely different matter.

[UltraShirou]

1 minute ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

No eyewitness account is complete by itself. It takes a competent historian with an access to archived material to be able to present an interpretation of the facts as they are recorded. Not even necessarily everything that is recorded is true, mind you. What they try to accomplish is to present as objective a truth as possible based on material that is at least in part very subjective.

 

What actually gets published, and even more so what you will read in history text books is an entirely different matter.

I agree, but we must not forget that the history books contain mostly generic representation of large-scale events. As well as archives. In the same time there may exist a lot of less significant events considered to be a part of the main event. And those events are not described. In the case of history book or article - even not mentioned. If someone who was eyewitness will leave memories or will be interviewed then we have a legitimate evidence. But if not - it makes such minor event vanish. Now let us think about simple fact - how many minor events were kept only by their eyewitnesses and are known only to their children and grandchildren? Or were so horrifying so eyewitness tried not to tell about at all? 

[LukkaiCH]

Am 1.12.2022 um 09:59, UltraShirou sagte:

Training system is definitely necessary to be working right, but no training can make soldier into a part of combat unit.

I've been part of a military system that does just that. And we're not even that good an army.

 

Quite honestly? If someone is telling you that, they are either ignorant. That is okay, ignorance can be cured. Or they are lying. Most likely to cover their own back. Maybe because if they were to change anything towards a system working like that, they would have to invest a lot of time, work and money. But particularily in regards to command structures as the Russian armies have held all the way from tsaristic times throughout the Soviet Union into modern Russia, it would in fact threaten the power of officers, especially higher ups, within the current system. Because the soldiers may now actually refuse orders and treatment that are outright illegal and amoral. So the people in charge will not change the system, because they do not want it to change. And tell everybody that it can't be changed and that their way is the only way. The reason why it's a systematic problem that lived through time is that it generally tends to be a problem in any authoritarian regime. But at this point I am going to stop talking about this, because we threaten to move into politics.

 

 

Am 1.12.2022 um 09:59, UltraShirou sagte:

And you may wonder, but ideal (and real) officer can be everywhere and see anything because of commanding approach i mentioned here many times.

That is indeed the ideal often purported. That is also often attributed to many a historic military leader. Because it is an absolute mainstay of propaganda. And unfortunately untrue. Even at platoon level, an officer cannot control everything about the troops under his command. Many will try, one way or another. Some will get close even, though mostly not through means you would consider honorable or anything but amoral. Yet even for those, the ideal in the end is but a pipe dream.

[_Mad_Thom_]

12 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

I'm not justifying what was done, i will not decline it was done, but i know exactly why that was done. So your friendly reminder will make no effect.

Maybe you can explain to us why Soviet soldiers raped upwards of a million German women and girls.

[UltraShirou]

1 hour ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

Maybe you can explain to us why Soviet soldiers raped upwards of a million German women and girls.

 And you have no idea, don't you? If this is a sort of trolling then i recommend you to reconsider your approach, because it's to clumsy. I already revealed here everything in the most delicate manner possible. So please don't test me. I'm very patient and abnormally friendly to the German people in comparison to my fellow countrymen. Especially in comparison to my ancestors. And i really hope we can skip the part of mutual accusations and score settling.