commander Request to add a historical commander

[fumtu]

3 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

 Your understanding of honor. Your country military structure. And modus operandi of your military forces. And i'm not going to argue with that. Because of course it's pointless, i agree.

 

As long as I not in yours I am good, as your is obviously considering sending people to certain death. What you described looks exactly as opening screen from the Enemy at the Gates. Man if that is what you consider honor and how army should work I have nothing to say.

[UltraShirou]

7 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

As long as I not in yours I am good, as your is obviously considering sending people to certain death. What you described looks exactly as opening screen from the Enemy at the Gates. Man if that is what you consider honor and how army should work I have nothing to say.

 Of course opening scene from Saving private Ryan is completely different, man. Spare me the Hollywood fantasies, please.

[fumtu]

3 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

 Of course opening scene from Saving private Ryan is completely different, man. Spare me the Hollywood fantasies, please.

 

? Lol

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

34 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

I see all of this in every battle on the EU cluster by the way. 

Just wondering - where are you from? North Korea by chance?

 

2 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

And yes, on the battlefield i need someone else to choose for me. Because that someone can see entire landscape and i can not.

 

 

Edit: You forgot to explain to me how in your eyes Rudolf Höß was an upstanding and honourable warrior god....

[UltraShirou]

1 minute ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Just wondering - where are you from? North Korea by chance?

 

 

Feel free to guess. Or give up and ask me in private. Or just read first post in this topic carefully which you most likely did not.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

2 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

 Or just read first post in this topic carefully which you most likely did not.

I actually read that, because that was about the last post in this thread that had any merit - I just skipped over the bull, so there was nothing much to read.

 

Also, you forgot to explain to me how in your eyes Rudolf Höß was an upstanding and honourable warrior god.... because either you can't or you try anyway in vain and get a forum ban. Win-Win.

 

Also, you might want to try and educate yourself further before my popcorn runs out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

[UltraShirou]

11 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Also, you forgot to explain to me how in your eyes Rudolf Höß was an upstanding and honourable warrior god....

Oh, man, its really funny how wrong you are in your suggestions and how hard you try to make me public enemy because of that. And thank you for the wikipedia, of course i've never seen that page, never heard about that topic and of course i know nothing about your (our shared) history. Win-win, pal. Win-win. You've made my day.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

35 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

of course i've never seen that page, never heard about that topic and of course i know nothing about your (our shared) history

This is probably the first thing you said in quite a while that's not entirely bovine excrement.

Also, stop pretending to be german, we have compulsory schooling and your lack of basic education concerning basic moral concepts is appaling.

[_Mad_Thom_]

One of persons (and I will not say who) that is posting on this thread is either:

 

1) A troll

2) An 11 year old boy who has read too many war-related romantic history novels, or

3) A war criminal trying to justify his crimes.

 

I have made up my mind. What do the rest of you think?

[UltraShirou]

1 hour ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Also, stop pretending to be german, we have compulsory schooling and your lack of basic education concerning basic moral concepts is appaling.

 Lolwhat?! Man, of course i'm not german! I'm really surprised this wasn't obvious to you. I share much more in moral concepts with your infamous (as i'm sure you was educated to think, but maybe i'm wrong here) ancestors than you think, but not because i'm sort of neonazi. But because i belong to the Volk who had the same sort of Reich you had and the same kind of Fuhrer. And our history is as infamous as yours in many aspects. Concentration camps, mass murders, ethnic cleansing and much more. And yes we have shared history in period 1939-1989. 50 years of shared history. I'm russian, i was born in Soviet Union. My obsolete understanding of officers honor roots in soviet military tradition my grandfather belonged to as a navy captain and military tradition of russian imperial army. And i'm not ashamed of that. Yep, wild russians with their wild traditions. That's why i have so much respect to your ancestors who shared the same beliefs. Your national consciousness was overwritten after WW2 under the context of denazification. Ours was not. We keep that historical imprint what was forcibly removed from you. An archaic (as you think) concept of honor.

 Okay (to prevent you from accusing me in insults), to tell the truth we were partially overwritten in 1990s too. Thats actually why i'm here with you, not with the zealots of our modern wanna-be-austrian-artist.

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 14 Stunden, UltraShirou sagte:

 And yes, soldiers without officers are wild animals prone to kill and rape. Because yesterday they was civilians like you and me, often without any clue about laws of war and warriors honor, even honor at all.

As someone who served for nine years, I do find your words deeply insulting. And more than that also very disturbing, because they paint the picture of an army utterly and completely failing at instructing and training their troops right. If an army cannot instill the same concepts of right and wrong in their common soldiers as in their officers, it fails at a level most basic.

 

 

Vor 7 Stunden, UltraShirou sagte:

All men i know who were considering genocide as an act of honorable service are condemned war criminals. They tried to use concept of honor to excuse their deeds.

You've got this one wrong in one important aspect: They did not try to use it to excuse their deeds. They deeply and honestly believed that it did. And the words they were using to express that sentiment are the very same words you are using in this thread to express yours. So it really should not surprise you that you are being called out on it.

 

 

Vor 6 Stunden, UltraShirou sagte:

 Of course opening scene from Saving private Ryan is completely different, man. Spare me the Hollywood fantasies, please.

As a matter of fact, it is. And if you were to look past the "Bah, Hollywood humbug!" sentiments and take off the blinders to see how the troops in question act and are led, you could see how. And it is in fact a major point. Because it is pretty much the difference between how you seem to see things and how pretty much everyone else in here does. I will admit, it's not a perfect example to show it. There's much better ones. But it is the one you chose, so I ran with it.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

4 hours ago, LukkaiCH said:

... an army utterly and completely failing at instructing and training their troops right. If an army cannot instill the same concepts of right and wrong in their common soldiers as in their officers, it fails at a level most basic.

 

[_Mad_Thom_]

11 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

I'm russian, i was born in Soviet Union.

This explains everything.

[UltraShirou]

9 hours ago, LukkaiCH said:

As someone who served for nine years, I do find your words deeply insulting. And more than that also very disturbing, because they paint the picture of an army utterly and completely failing at instructing and training their troops right. If an army cannot instill the same concepts of right and wrong in their common soldiers as in their officers, it fails at a level most basic.

 

 Thats a consequence of the conscription-type army. It very archaic, even medieval system which requires an officer corps to be overwhelmingly competent, because they work with the raw, heterogeneous material must be forged into soldiers. This process is often unsuccessful, because the mass-conscription system delivers people who just can not be soldiers. And if an officer is not competent enough it turns into a real problem. But on the other hand this system provides nearly 100% of the male population with military training.

 

9 hours ago, LukkaiCH said:

You've got this one wrong in one important aspect: They did not try to use it to excuse their deeds. They deeply and honestly believed that it did. And the words they were using to express that sentiment are the very same words you are using in this thread to express yours. So it really should not surprise you that you are being called out on it.

 I'm not sure they truly believed what they were proclaiming. Even so we need to be honest and take into consideration only facts, not emotions and excuses. Some guys guide themselves with an image of Nürnberg process not going deeper into details. So they feel no difference between actual crimes and appearance of the criminals. This is the reason why they trigger on me and my post, rushing in eager to punish "damn nazi". And my commitment to the concept what is a hundred years older than Adolf Hitler makes them to go berserk. And really - it's even worse than it looks like, because one ongoing disaster is fueled exactly by the same ignorance. I can witness this firsthand.

 

2 hours ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

This explains everything.

Great. Hope this will shield me from now.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Hope springs eternal...

[UltraShirou]

3 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Hope springs eternal...

 Hope dies last. 

[WarburtonLee]

I would like to see myself (The one in my nickname) as a commander aswell, with him, if his ship is killed, orders teammates to "Continue to engage the enemy" :P

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

Let's add

If WG can add anime girls, then why not?

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 5 Stunden, UltraShirou sagte:

 Thats a consequence of the conscription-type army.

I served in a conscription-type army. It is not a consequence of that. It's a consequence of an army doing it wrong.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble here. But if it really is a problem in your nation's army. That means that your army fails.

[UltraShirou]

1 hour ago, LukkaiCH said:

I served in a conscription-type army. It is not a consequence of that. It's a consequence of an army doing it wrong.

As i said - it's a matter of officers competence. 

1 hour ago, LukkaiCH said:

Sorry to burst your bubble here. But if it really is a problem in your nation's army. That means that your army fails.

Not a problem, man. Thats not news. Actually we have no real army today. Soviet army was an army. But those days are long gone. Coming full-scale war will be fatal and followed in mass casualties. So i dont plan my life further then 2 months. 

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 4 Minuten, UltraShirou sagte:

As i said - it's a matter of officers competence.

If the conscription and training system works right, it really isn't dependent on the officers. And it shouldn't be dependent on them since A) while you can be a bit more selective, you still face the same problems in choosing and training officers as you do with soldiers in general. And B) even the ideal officer cannot be everywhere, see everything. He will never have full control over his men.

If you want to get anywhere, you need to imprint this sense of right and wrong with the common soldiers. The Russian army, for all I hear and read, apparently does not do that on purpose. And they are suffering for it.

[UltraShirou]

11 hours ago, LukkaiCH said:

If the conscription and training system works right, it really isn't dependent on the officers. And it shouldn't be dependent on them since A) while you can be a bit more selective, you still face the same problems in choosing and training officers as you do with soldiers in general. And B) even the ideal officer cannot be everywhere, see everything. He will never have full control over his men.

If you want to get anywhere, you need to imprint this sense of right and wrong with the common soldiers. The Russian army, for all I hear and read, apparently does not do that on purpose. And they are suffering for it.

 The tragedy of russian armed forces today is the decay of officer corps. Soviet ideology was the rod, the pillar of the military moral and spirit. After the fall of the Union that was removed and nothing was given instead. Training system is definitely necessary to be working right, but no training can make soldier into a part of combat unit. Thats the job of a commanding officer. And you may wonder, but ideal (and real) officer can be everywhere and see anything because of commanding approach i mentioned here many times. Trust. Trust of his soldiers, they do anything, anytime, anywhere not to fail him. Old times in the Soviet Navy that was a main principle - to unite ship's crew into a family, not to make them gears and pins.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

 The tragedy of russian armed forces today is the decay of officer corps. Soviet ideology was the rod, the pillar of the military moral and spirit. After the fall of the Union that was removed and nothing was given instead. Training system is definitely necessary to be working right, but no training can make soldier into a part of combat unit. Thats the job of a commanding officer. And you may wonder, but ideal (and real) officer can be everywhere and see anything because of commanding approach i mentioned here many times. Trust. Trust of his soldiers, they do anything, anytime, anywhere not to fail him. Old times in the Soviet Navy that was a main principle - to unite ship's crew into a family, not to make them gears and pins.

 

No, the rot goes much much further back.

[UltraShirou]

52 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

No, the rot goes much much further back.

Explain then where the root of evil is.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

15 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

Explain then where the root of evil is.

 

Firstly, the Soviet officers are not referred to as jackals because they are warm and furry. Secondly, the tradition of inhuman brutality was borne out of the evils of the civil war. Thirdly, the distrust between the officers and men has its roots even further back in time. For instance, on the vessels of Imperial Russian Navy, the officers were aware of the risk of mutiny. With harsh discipline, cramped quarters and bad food, as they say, the ships must have felt a lot like floating prison colonies.

 

In other words, with the revolution they went from bad to worse.