commander Request to add a historical commander

[UltraShirou]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:04 PM, _Mad_Thom_ said:

Seems like Langsdorf lost a battle, scuttled his ship, and then killed himself. Not sure he is such a great pick.

The Holy Bible says: "There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." Thats actually what Langsdorff did. He sacrificed his ship, his pride and his life for his men, his crew.

[_Mad_Thom_]

18 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

The Holy Bible says: "There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." Thats actually what Langsdorff did. He sacrificed his ship, his pride and his life for his men, his crew.

Yeah that old anthology says lots of stuff. He may have scuttled the Graf Spee to save casualties among his crew but what was the purpose of killing himself? He left behind a wife and son.

[UltraShirou]

13 minutes ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

Yeah that old anthology says lots of stuff. He may have scuttled the Graf Spee to save casualties among his crew but what was the purpose of killing himself? He left behind a wife and son.

But saved his honor and his name. Thats difficult to explain. You either understand what is it or you dont. Captain never leaves his ship.

[_Mad_Thom_]

1 hour ago, UltraShirou said:

But saved his honor and his name. Thats difficult to explain. You either understand what is it or you dont. Captain never leaves his ship. 

Well maybe you can try to explain to a big dope like me how a husband and father killing himself saves his honor. Seems selfish and wrong.

 

By the way, is that a Kamakaze pilot for your avatar?

[UltraShirou]

33 minutes ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

Well maybe you can try to explain to a big dope like me how a husband and father killing himself saves his honor. Seems selfish and wrong.

 

By the way, is that a Kamakaze pilot for your avatar?

 As i said it's difficult to explain. Sense of honor is a very deep thing. When you lead your people into battle it matters little are you father and husband. You're father to them all. And if you fail them - you fail your family, cause in the war your soldiers are your family. On the Navy this connection is even deeper. Navy Captain cant be a random person. It's a man with the great power and even greater responsibility on his shoulders. And the military officer has his honor above everything else. And this honor roots in his loyalty to his people and country. Death always an acceptable way to save your honor if you faced a defeat.

 

This "kamikaze" name is Saburo Sakai. 

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

Sense of honor is a very deep thing

These are bronze age concepts of honor. I'm happy to live in a more civilized age.

[BlueMax1916]

In the Third Reich it was common use by the Nazis to punish the family of a person that was not 'in line with their ideas'. There is a word for it: 'kin liability'. It happened also to Erwin Rommel when he was accused to have knowledge about the assassination attempt against Hitler. To keep his family out of deeper troubles he took his own life. That was some 'choice' that the Nazis left to some of their more meritous and publicly known people. Langsdorff may have shared the same thinking.

[UltraShirou]

51 minutes ago, BlueMax1916 said:

In the Third Reich it was common use by the Nazis to punish the family of a person that was not 'in line with their ideas'. There is a word for it: 'kin liability'. It happened also to Erwin Rommel when he was accused to have knowledge about the assassination attempt against Hitler. To keep his family out of deeper troubles he took his own life. That was some 'choice' that the Nazis left to some of their more meritous and publicly known people. Langsdorff may have shared the same thinking.

 Got any proof? I actually know this episode about Erwin Rommel, but Langsdorff wasnt a military leader of the same caliber. And definitely losing a ship in battle (as a result of a battle) isn't the same as being accused in conspiracy against the first person of the state. If you're right then german armed forces would be completely beheaded to 1943, even 1942. If every officer, every commander were set before the 'choice' you mentioned. I suspect you're exaggerating.

 

3 hours ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

These are bronze age concepts of honor. I'm happy to live in a more civilized age.

 It's the only concept of honor. Ask a real combat officer who've seen the war. Professional military commanders are the people from the different world. With different vision and different concepts. Dont compare your civilian experience with their service. Completely different things.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

1 minute ago, UltraShirou said:

It's the only concept of honor. Ask a real combat officer who've seen the war. Professional military commanders are the people from the different world. With different vision and different concepts. Dont compare your civilian experience with their service. Completely different things.

I certainly will! This is the reason, the very reason, we in Germany don't have a military that is seperated from our society. Because we don't want bovine excrement like that.

 

[UltraShirou]

1 hour ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

I certainly will! This is the reason, the very reason, we in Germany don't have a military that is seperated from our society. Because we don't want bovine excrement like that.

 

This explains a lot. Result of postwar brainwashing Germany faced. You were made to be ashamed of your heroes, to see your military as criminals no matter what they really have done. Human mind is weak and always tends to simplify. To see any situation black and white. But warriors are not equal to criminals. They kill because this is their purpose. And they are always separated from the society. Because their world is different. In that world officers honor is the price to be paid for soldiers trust. Without that Trust they will not follow your orders in situation demands them to die for the cause you all serve. This is the essence of war. It lies far beyond civilian understanding of life and death. Your home, your family are left behind. On the battlefield you are one with your commander, your comrades and your cause. It doesnt matter who you was before and if you have family back home. Your unit is your family now. You trust your commander as your own father. He is your father and he is ready to give his life for you as well as you're ready to give yours for him. Its the only way to win the war. And it's impossible without Trust. Trust grown from Honor. You trust him because he is a Man of Honor.

Rommel was dangerous enough to be sentenced to death by Hitler because Rommel had more than Trust. He had the Zealous Faith of his soldiers. Its a grade higher than Trust. 

[_Mad_Thom_]

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

Result of postwar brainwashing Germany faced. You were made to be ashamed of your heroes

What about the pre-war brainwashing Germany faced which resulted in 10's of millions of deaths including those exterminated in death camps?

 

Germany adulated a World War One hero (Adolph Hitler) which resulted in the near destruction of the country.

 

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

Human mind is weak and always tends to simplify.

Can you possibly be any more condescending?

 

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

But warriors are not equal to criminals.

Unfortunately, as we have seen in the current special military operation, they often are. And the term "warrior" is outdated and glamourizes the military.

 

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

It doesnt matter who you was before and if you have family back home. 

I guess this is why soldiers never write letters or emails, phone their loved ones, or visit them on leave.

 

5 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

Rommel was dangerous enough to be sentenced to death by Hitler because Rommel had more than Trust. He had the Zealous Faith of his soldiers. Its a grade higher than Trust. 

Rommel was suspected of complicity in the Wolf's Lair assassination attempt on Hitler. Nothing to do with the loyalty of his troops.

 

 

You seem to have a highly romanticized view of the military. Where it comes from I'm not sure.

[Onsterfelijke]

If a historical commander isn't added it could be that family didn't gave permission to use the name.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Take not when judging Langsdorff's actions that navies take honor very seriously. In Russia after the defeat at Tsushima, several officers faced court martial. That includes both admirals Rozhestvensky and Nebogatov (who was responsible for surrending the fleet). Their death sentences were commuted by the tsar. Nebogatov served time and was eventually pardoned by the tsar.

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

7 hours ago, UltraShirou said:

This explains a lot. Result of postwar brainwashing Germany faced. You were made to be ashamed of your heroes, to see your military as criminals no matter what they really have done. Human mind is weak and always tends to simplify. To see any situation black and white. But warriors are not equal to criminals. They kill because this is their purpose. And they are always separated from the society. Because their world is different. In that world officers honor is the price to be paid for soldiers trust. Without that Trust they will not follow your orders in situation demands them to die for the cause you all serve. This is the essence of war. It lies far beyond civilian understanding of life and death. Your home, your family are left behind. On the battlefield you are one with your commander, your comrades and your cause. It doesnt matter who you was before and if you have family back home. Your unit is your family now. You trust your commander as your own father. He is your father and he is ready to give his life for you as well as you're ready to give yours for him. Its the only way to win the war. And it's impossible without Trust. Trust grown from Honor. You trust him because he is a Man of Honor. 

Rommel was dangerous enough to be sentenced to death by Hitler because Rommel had more than Trust. He had the Zealous Faith of his soldiers. Its a grade higher than Trust.  

Well, that's some load of bovine excrement. It's not the lack of "honor" - I'm just to smart to follow some grade school reject Sergeant who gets to tell me to lay down my life for the fatherland.

These archaic concepts you apparently value so highly are outdated and invalid in a modern and civilized society.

[UltraShirou]

4 hours ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

What about the pre-war brainwashing Germany faced which resulted in 10's of millions of deaths including those exterminated in death camps?

 

Germany adulated a World War One hero (Adolph Hitler) which resulted in the near destruction of the country.

Tell me please - if germans are guilty in any sins possible then why Waffen SS were so international? Maybe because nearly 100% of western world were actual nazis long before Adolf Hitler even started to walk? Its easy to forget your own sins - colonialism and exploiting of foreign nations, treating them as second grade humans. But this is a true source of Nazism. Hitler wasnt original. He just saddled the *Zeitgeist* and tied it with the thirst of national revenge for defeat in WW1. 

4 hours ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

Unfortunately, as we have seen in the current special military operation, they often are. And the term "warrior" is outdated and glamourizes the military.

 

Not a bla-bla-bla operation. War. Real War. And there are true warriors from the side of Ukraine. 

4 hours ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

I guess this is why soldiers never write letters or emails, phone their loved ones, or visit them on leave.

They do as well as they give their lives for their brothers in arms. Reality of war eclipses anything in your life before. Soldiers do not want to send war in their letters back home. War draws a line between your family there and your family here. And you no longer belong to civilian life.

4 hours ago, _Mad_Thom_ said:

Rommel was suspected of complicity in the Wolf's Lair assassination attempt on Hitler. Nothing to do with the loyalty of his troops.

Really? Nothing to do with moral and loyalty of the troops if you just shoot their beloved general?

[UltraShirou]

58 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

Well, that's some load of bovine excrement. It's not the lack of "honor" - I'm just to smart to follow some grade school reject Sergeant who gets to tell me to lay down my life for the fatherland.

These archaic concepts you apparently value so highly are outdated and invalid in a modern and civilized society.

Then you will fail your country. Your house will be burned. Your mother and sisters raped and butchered. Why? Because War is uncivilized. Always.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Langsdorff saved the lives of some 1,200 men most of whom if not all had otherwise faced certain death. Those feudal era concepts of honor may seem outdated in our modern, democratic world, but that is not necessarily the case. Langsdorff remains a controversial figure in Germany still.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/wwii-germany-grapples-with-honoring-graf-spee-captain/a-50655056

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

2 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

Then you will fail your country. Your house will be burned. Your mother and sisters raped and butchered. Why? Because War is uncivilized. Always.

No, that happens because other people are uncivilzed. Those who adhore that bovine excrement, the glorified warrior caste, where killing people is an acceptable way to solve disagreements - Come on, you aren't really good at complex issues, I get that, but you should note when you contradict yourself over two posts.

Yes, these honorable warriors rape and butcher, because, as you said, "War is uncivilized. Always." That much is true, at last. So the only sane thing to do is to fight wars as civilized as one can. That means not allowing a seperate parallel society with their own codes of honor that are not acceptable. If you can't do that, you fail your your society and, really, you're not qualified to be a soldier in a civilized country.

 

Unfortunately the old adage is true: "the very meekest cannot be at peace if his ill neighbour will not let him rest", war is not going away by being civilized yourself, the adversary needs to be civilized, too.

 

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Everything tends to be relative, and the same goes for code of honor. As they say, a chivalrous knight would swear upon his honor to protect the damsel from every possible peril (apart from himself).

[UltraShirou]

2 minutes ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

No, that happens because other people are uncivilzed. Those who adhore that bovine excrement, the glorified warrior caste, where killing people is an acceptable way to solve disagreements - Come on, you aren't really good at complex issues, I get that, but you should note when you contradict yourself over two posts.

Yes, these honorable warriors rape and butcher, because, as you said, "War is uncivilized. Always." That much is true, at last. So the only sane thing to do is to fight wars as civilized as one can. That means not allowing a seperate parallel society with their own codes of honor that are not acceptable. If you can't do that, you fail your your society and, really, you're not qualified to be a soldier in a civilized country.

 

Unfortunately the old adage is true: "the very meekest cannot be at peace if his ill neighbour will not let him rest", war is not going away by being civilized yourself, the adversary needs to be civilized, too.

 

 

You mixed up everything i said in one heap and now you wonder why you got no cake, but a heap. Officers honor creates the difference between the crowd of rapists and murderers and an army. Without officers soldiers will turn into wild horde. Without soldiers trust and faith in their officers that horde will burn and rape. War is uncivilized. Always. Only officers honor can keep that wild mess in civilized borders, so dear to you.

[fumtu]

49 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Langsdorff saved the lives of some 1,200 men most of whom if not all had otherwise faced certain death. Those feudal era concepts of honor may seem outdated in our modern, democratic world, but that is not necessarily the case. Langsdorff remains a controversial figure in Germany still.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/wwii-germany-grapples-with-honoring-graf-spee-captain/a-50655056

 

From brief look into Gordon Landsborough's "The Battle of the River Plate" from 1956 (so it could be outdated), I couldn't find that, as article you linked said,

 

Quote

Her commander, Captain Hans Langsdorff, believed he was facing impossible odds against a superior force beyond the horizon and defied Hitler's order to fight to the last man.

 

From book, Hitler was against for ship to be interned in either Montevideo or Buenos Aires, and actually gave order/permission for ship to be scuttled if it can't break trough to prevent British getting it. So saying that ...

 

Quote

A spokesman said Langsdorff had saved many lives and prevented the ship's modern and secret technology from falling into the hands of the British.

 

... could be see in different light if he actually had an order to scuttle ship from Hitler. His ship was damaged and his ammo reserves low. He was already started preparing ship for scuttling believing that big ships of the  RN fleet is already there waiting for it, when he received information that those ships were actually in Rio. But then it was to late for escape attempt and he proceeded with preparations.  So yes, he decided to scuttle the ship, but it is not in defiance with orders but according to them.

 

If someone has some other info I would like to read it, but please don't just post articles like this which does not provide any source of more specific info about event.

[fumtu]

54 minutes ago, UltraShirou said:

Officers honor creates the difference between the crowd of rapists and murderers and an army. Without officers soldiers will turn into wild horde. Without soldiers trust and faith in their officers that horde will burn and rape. War is uncivilized. Always. Only officers honor can keep that wild mess in civilized borders, so dear to you.

 

Wow, what a lot of crap. What does officer honor even mean? Maybe Sanji Iwabuchi should choose sinking with Kirishima, as his "officers honor" bring death to more than 100 000 civilians in Manila just in spite to not let them be liberated by Americans. Or you maybe believe that Einsatzgruppen killed millions on their own, just because there was no officers to lead them? Or you think that their officers did not have honor in their own sense. Thinking that officer honor is what keep "wild mess in civilized borders" is ridicules, as that mean that soldiers are just mindless robots, prone to killing and raping without guide and who are there to follow every order, which makes them not guilty for any crimes they commit as, after all, they are just following orders. Why that sound familiar, oh maybe because all those honorable officers claimed that after the war. Just like Langsdorff itself wrote in his last message

 

Quote

I shall face my fate with firm faith in the cause and the future of the nation and of my Führer.

 

After all they all just put their faith in their Führer, and followed him blindly accoring to their "officer honor", so who could blame them.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

@fumtu It says here that Hitler gave the order for the scuttling:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/century/1930-1939/Story/0,,127248,00.html

 

However... read that in the context and think what sort of psychic powers Hitler would have needed to have the necessarily up to date information and then being able to not only assess the situation and have the order dispatched so that it would have reached the Graf Spee and Langsdorff on time.

[UltraShirou]

25 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Wow, what a lot of crap. What does officer honor even mean? Maybe Sanji Iwabuchi should choose sinking with Kirishima, as his "officers honor" bring death to more than 100 000 civilians in Manila just in spite to not let them be liberated by Americans. Or you maybe believe that Einsatzgruppen killed millions on their own, just because there was no officers to lead them? Or you think that their officers did not have honor in their own sense. Thinking that officer honor is what keep "wild mess in civilized borders" is ridicules, as that mean that soldiers are just mindless robots, prone to killing and raping without guide and who are there to follow every order, which makes them not guilty for any crimes they commit as, after all, they are just following orders. Why that sound familiar, oh maybe because all those honorable officers claimed that after the war. Just like Langsdorff itself wrote in his last message

 

 

After all they all just put their faith in their Führer, and followed him blindly accoring to their "officer honor", so who could blame them.

 You are thinking in the way of your time, your culture and your understanding. Whats right for you isnt right for middle 40s of the twenty century. Because your way of thinking is a result of what happened back then. And yes, soldiers without officers are wild animals prone to kill and rape. Because yesterday they was civilians like you and me, often without any clue about laws of war and warriors honor, even honor at all. And if you are moral and civilized it doesnt mean all in your squad will be. In the war there is only one way not to follow orders. And this is death. Soldier disobedience is judged by his officer. Officer disobedience is judged by his honor. Honor says you what to do, but not how.

[_Mad_Thom_]

5 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

However... read that in the context and think what sort of psychic powers Hitler would have needed to have the necessarily up to date information and then being able to not only assess the situation and have the order dispatched so that it would have reached the Graf Spee and Langsdorff on time.

What about radio communication or even a telephone?