Groningen or Forest Sherman choice

[LukkaiCH]

Vor 7 Minuten, Northern_Nightowl sagte:

The IJN gunboats aren't there on T5-7 or are possibly rather found in the torpedo line (look at the Akatsuki, for instance). Up to the T8 Akizuki, you rather get another flavour of torpedo-centric boats. They aren't bad (save for a bit short-ranged torpedoes on Minekaze), but I think that a 10 pointer captain is even more mandatory than on some other DD (you'll dearly need Concealment Expert for more tactical flexibility).

 

Regards, Nightowl

Akatsuki is definitely the better gunboat than Shiratsuyu. On the other hand, Shiratsuyu with the reload booser can lay down one heck of a wall of skill. Those two do feel a bit as if they were placed in the wrong tree to me.

[lup3s]

10 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

 

Been there, done that, honestly 

 

The thing is, on the Daring/Druid I always turn on my hydro very diligently, but on Sherman/Vampire/Friesland/Z-52 I often hold out hope to use it offensively, plus it's shorter, so I delay it...and pay for it 

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense though. (see quoted post below)

 

> "Groningen is not manoeuvrable at all" - "you will die to torps in your smokescreen"

> "play Kitakaze instead"

 

@neDomce

If you die to torps in your smokescreen in a Hydro DD, how do you expect to fare in an equally sluggish DD without Hydro ??? 

 

23 hours ago, neDomce said:

I have only Groningen. I must say it is a dd I loathe to play because it is NOT maneuverable at all. You WILL NOT DODGE SHELLS; you will die to torps in your smokescreen.

Yes, a 1v1 you will win against most dds (unless torps. torps bad).

You have smoke and hydro so you have good chances against a push as well, however lategame you will get pushed by BBs in your smoke and cannot torp them and burn them in time to survive.

 

What i would suggest is pick and play Kitakaze instead Groningen. It is just the same good gunboat, it has torps it has better conceal and it lets you use fxp to get research bureau ships. 

 

 

[neDomce]

23 minutes ago, lup3s said:

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense though. (see quoted post below)

 

> "Groningen is not manoeuvrable at all" - "you will die to torps in your smokescreen"

> "play Kitakaze instead"

 

@neDomce

If you die to torps in your smokescreen in a Hydro DD, how do you expect to fare in an equally sluggish DD without Hydro ??? 

 

 

That is a good point, Kita is also vulnerable to torps. 

However, my point is that Groningen  - despite hydro - is just as much. 

 

1. You have only 2 turrets, so you sit flat towards the target.

2. Your Hydro timing and smoke timing do not match, so you do sit quite a lot of time in smoke without hydro (second smoke)

3. You are crap at spotting, so your only role is to sit in smoke and FARM as you are outspotted by most everyone (6.5 conceal). And it is easy to aim torps at a groningen

4. Hydro is somewhat of a trick. You do have the earlier warning, but you are clumsy as hell and you frequently fail to dodge the torps, especially the european torps.

 

So in a sense I was saying that if you want groningen experience without wasting fxp - go get a kita and get torps plus better conceal instead. Also, better shell arcs at medium range and better HE pen (although not sure about fire chance).

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

If you sit flat broadside in the smoke, you get what you deserve. Sherman with 2/3 firepower on one end can theoretically have an easier time dodging the torps sent into the smoke if the player isn't greedy.

 

But that isn't the Shermans USP, it's the ballistics..

 

[Deksi_4]

9 hours ago, Northern_Nightowl said:

The IJN gunboats aren't there on T5-7 or are possibly rather found in the torpedo line (look at the Akatsuki, for instance). Up to the T8 Akizuki, you rather get another flavour of torpedo-centric boats. They aren't bad (save for a bit short-ranged torpedoes on Minekaze), but I think that a 10 pointer captain is even more mandatory than on some other DD (you'll dearly need Concealment Expert for more tactical flexibility).

 

Regards, Nightowl

Thank you, best regards 

[lup3s]

1 hour ago, neDomce said:

That is a good point, Kita is also vulnerable to torps. 

However, my point is that Groningen  - despite hydro - is just as much. 

 

1. You have only 2 turrets, so you sit flat towards the target.

2. Your Hydro timing and smoke timing do not match, so you do sit quite a lot of time in smoke without hydro (second smoke)

3. You are crap at spotting, so your only role is to sit in smoke and FARM as you are outspotted by most everyone (6.5 conceal). And it is easy to aim torps at a groningen

4. Hydro is somewhat of a trick. You do have the earlier warning, but you are clumsy as hell and you frequently fail to dodge the torps, especially the european torps.

 

So in a sense I was saying that if you want groningen experience without wasting fxp - go get a kita and get torps plus better conceal instead. Also, better shell arcs at medium range and better HE pen (although not sure about fire chance).

 

I play my Groningen from time to time, and I have little issues with torpedoes.

 

1. Groningen can still sit angled in smoke and fire both guns.

2. True, so you make sure the Smoke and Hydro consumables are in sync if there's a torpedo DD on your flank (and you want to smoke up). Or you get into positions where you can farm from smoke but are least vulnerable to torps.

3. Groningen is crap at spotting sneaky DDs in open water; so don't try to do that. Don't play for your weakness, play for your strengths. Groningen can have more roles than just "sit in smoke and farm"; support allies with AA, support allies with your Hydro, provide smoke screens, provide spotting, contest caps ...

4. The Hydro should give ample time to manoeuver to dodge the incoming torpedoes. 

 

You say you fail frequently to dodge enemy torps, but I don't ... this makes me think your playstyle with the Groningen might not be optimal ?

[neDomce]

33 minutes ago, lup3s said:

You say you fail frequently to dodge enemy torps, but I don't ... this makes me think your playstyle with the Groningen might not be optimal ?

You might just be a better player :-)
I think we both agree on strengths and weaknesses of this ship, you might just be better at playing a ship like that. 

Therefore, this does not negate whatever you or I said. 

 

I hope our OP has a good time in his Akizuki/Kitakaze and you may well enjoy burning stuff in a Groningen :)

 

Edit: I just checked your profile. You are a super unicum player with almost 70% win rate. You do well in any ship, obviously. To average players your opinion is important, but much less valuable as things your advice are beyond our ability to execute. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 11/22/2022 at 7:10 PM, lup3s said:

DD with Hydro dying to torps 

Well - the fact that you can see them coming, but doesn't mean you can avoid them... 

(sits in smoke with hydro-DD... notices Halland torps incoming... HUUAAAAAAAAA!!!!!)

[Figment]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:49 AM, neDomce said:

1. You have only 2 turrets, so you sit flat towards the target.

Technically the angles allow you to not be sideways to the target though. But people are often so busy firing they forget about the hull orientation.

 

 

Don't underestimate how useful Dutch smoke is to cruisers and BBs. Don't keep it all to yourself. In fact, I often don't sit in it but let a cruiser cuddle up close to me so I get close SURPRISE He support when a DD shows up, which frequently off-sets the disadvantage of being spotted first. If a smoke screen is moving while it's being laid, you often see DDs with torps hold till the smoke settles and the spam starts.

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, Figment said:

In fact, I often don't sit in it but let a cruiser cuddle up close to me so I get close SURPRISE

You mean he can tank the torpedoes. 

[Figment]

5 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You mean he can tank the torpedoes. 

Typically since they see the smoke crawl they don't go for the cruiser, I got hydro on and when I run out of the smoke "by accident" at the far end any nearby DD will not aim for the cloud, but for me. Cruiser would be somewhere near the start of the smoke cloud, often coming out from behind an island (I prefer to start smoke clouds at islands as added cover), so should be safe.

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Figment said:

Typically since they see the smoke crawl they don't go for the cruiser, I got hydro on and when I run out of the smoke "by accident" at the far end any nearby DD will not aim for the cloud, but for me. Cruiser would be somewhere near the start of the smoke cloud, often coming out from behind an island (I prefer to start smoke clouds at islands as added cover), so should be safe.

What I often do is return and sit to the rear of the cloud, behind an island. 
When they shoot into the smoke they get spotted... 

[Figment]

On 11/24/2022 at 5:21 PM, BLUB__BLUB said:

What I often do is return and sit to the rear of the cloud, behind an island. 
When they shoot into the smoke they get spotted... 

That works too. :) In either situation, with a bit of luck any DD opening fire would trigger a hell fire on them. :) Must say the Friesland has been great in Ranked, especially if you use the smoke for allies primarily in the approach period, since your allies get free shots at the start on approaching BBs to get a headstart in further dueling, while you get lots of spot damage for extra xp. :)

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 hours ago, Figment said:

That works too. :) In either situation, with a bit of luck any DD opening fire would trigger a hell fire on them. :) Must say the Friesland has been great in Ranked, especially if you use the smoke for allies primarily in the approach period, since your allies get free shots at the start on approaching BBs to get a headstart in further dueling, while you get lots of spot damage for extra xp. :)

True, I agree Friesland/Groningen is same kind, and probably better at farming fires. They're equally "usefull", sort of.
But topic starter plays 99% co-op, so he will not harvest much fires, as it is "all over very fast". 

Which is the reason why he should get Forrest Dump, the SAP just dumps harder-faster-immediate. 
Yes F/G is a better firestarter... but there will be no DoT... more like: wham bam thank you mam. 

[Figment]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

True, I agree Friesland/Groningen is same kind, and probably better at farming fires. They're equally "usefull", sort of.
But topic starter plays 99% co-op, so he will not harvest much fires, as it is "all over very fast". 

Which is the reason why he should get Forrest Dump, the SAP just dumps harder-faster-immediate. 
Yes F/G is a better firestarter... but there will be no DoT... more like: wham bam thank you mam. 

I think I've had over 200 hits in coop before with Friesland though. Late night. :P Let the bots fight.

[Hades_warrior]

I have both DDs but i did not played them much because of this terrible meta.

Its so sad that the only playground you can take for a spin with new toy is Co op mode...

[BLUB__BLUB]

25 minutes ago, Figment said:

I think I've had over 200 hits in coop before with Friesland though. Late night. :P Let the bots fight.

I've never had a game in co-op more than 5 minutes 
I think you can do more damage with Forest Ruflstump than with F/G y in that time. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

24 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

I have both DDs but i did not played them much because of this terrible meta.

Its so sad that the only playground you can take for a spin with new toy is Co op mode...

You'd be able then to say which one is better? Please do! 

[Hades_warrior]

28 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You'd be able then to say which one is better? Please do! 

Sherman is basically Groningen with +1 turret and +1 tier, so not much to say about them from my side. Maybe some day IF I play them more 

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Sherman is basically Groningen with +1 turret and +1 tier, so not much to say about them from my side. Maybe some day IF I play them more 

Too bad you can't say. I think Sherman should better in co-op since it has SAP. It does a lot of direct damage and does not depend that much on fires. 

Fires take longer, first fire always gets put out, if a ship has 3 fires already (from your teammates) you will not get any more fires... 
...also the clock stops ticking when your teammates kill your fire-farm-vicitm (and games last only a short time). 
You can also torp something ( torps are crap but G/F don't have torps anyway). 

 

I have Sherman, but I do not have G/F, and I do not play co-op usually. It's just what I am thinking. 

 

The way it goes for me when farming fires, me and a divvy both take Smolensk.
- I set a fire (or two, usually) on a nice fat Yamato. He uses DCP. I got 5k damage.

- my divvy sets 3 fires on that Yamato... which are perma... he gets >50k damage... 
- dammit dammit dammt, well afetr my divvies fires burn out I set another two, he burns... 

- for about 1 second and then our CV or a DD or whatever torps my damagefarm.  

 

 

 

[Hades_warrior]

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Too bad you can't say. I think Sherman should better in co-op since it has SAP. It does a lot of direct damage and does not depend that much on fires. 

Fires take longer, first fire always gets put out, if a ship has 3 fires already (from your teammates) you will not get any more fires... 
...also the clock stops ticking when your teammates kill your fire-farm-vicitm (and games last only a short time). 
You can also torp something ( torps are crap but G/F don't have torps anyway). 

 

I have Sherman, but I do not have G/F, and I do not play co-op usually. It's just what I am thinking. 

 

Well, considering how bad game is (especially since this year) I play more Co op than PvP modes.

Do I enjoy it? Not really because games are over soon but at least can ride a bit in new ships.

 

Groningen was good DD for last tier 9 Ranked.

Only downside about Grony is that she doesn't have SAP unlike Sherman does so its less damage constant but still good.

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Well, considering how bad game is (especially since this year) I play more Co op than PvP modes.

Do I enjoy it? Not really because games are over soon but at least can ride a bit in new ships.

I'm kinda crap but getting better. have started DDs since a month, never done them before. 
Sure I had Paolo Yolo and Forrest but those are hardly DDs... randoms is stupid but sometimes hilarious. 

Spoiler

 

4 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Groningen was good DD for last tier 9 Ranked.

Only downside about Grony is that she doesn't have SAP unlike Sherman does so its less damage constant but still good.

Yep. Too bad you don't have more games in them.