Zipangu? Where?

[Karasu_Browarszky]

I'm missing Zipangu port, the updated port appared on PTS and I was kind of expecting to see it in game as well. Is there something I'm missing apart from the port itself?

[Yedwy]

Yeah good question…

@Seraphice?

[Yamashiro42]

7 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

I'm missing Zipangu port, the updated port appared on PTS and I was kind of expecting to see it in game as well. Is there something I'm missing apart from the port itself?

Removed temporaly due to rework, as it apparently contained some Japanese Imperialistic texts that were offending other Asian nations.

[Wizard27_1979]

20 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

I'm missing Zipangu port, the updated port appared on PTS and I was kind of expecting to see it in game as well. Is there something I'm missing apart from the port itself?

There was a banner in it which praised Imperial Japanese Navy (or so) and that offended people. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

I see... would be interesting to know what exactly it was, the NA thread speculates it was a flag, but I don't recall spotting the Rising Sun flag there on PTS. If it is related to the Rising Sun, we are of course back to the issue of WG embracing and catering to rampant racism with open arms while reaching for our wallets at the same time. If it's related to actual real war time propaganda content, then it is, naturally more understandable, though oddly onesided for them to be concerned over that.... and unfortunate that it effects this update unless they hotfix it relatively quickly.

 

Based on this information, or rather what is missing (a removed NA thread), it appears to be a flag which somehow I missed on PTS.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/ykvcxe/zipangu_port/

[Bland_42]

My polemic self would love to link here the Battotai song... but I need to restrain myself.

 

Still I find stupid that people can't be objective and separate historic facts from the characters involved.
I hate revisionism.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

5 minutes ago, Bland_42 said:

My polemic self would love to link here the Battotai song... but I need to restrain myself.

 

Still I find stupid that people can't be objective and separate historic facts from the characters involved.
I hate revisionism.

 

It's part revisionism, part modern day politics in SEA which WG is supposed to not have any part with. Clearly, they take sides, though as we've seen. The Rising Sun flag is in current use by Japan which was a sovereign nation the last I looked.

 

It's not a flag, apparently, probably a banner and apparently it was saying 'Glory to the Imperial Japanese Navy'. Which does not suit WG, though 'Glory to the Soviet Navy' apparently does.

 

Sorry for entering a bit of rant again.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.asia/topic/57774-zipangu-gone/

[Marblehead_1]

I only made a friendly reminder that during last collab with Azur Lane there were removed characters from buyable captains which were voiced by certain voice actress who become very controversial in PRC.

 

Let me guess announced Legendary Pan Asia captain didn't had custom name and portrait because they want to avoid crapstorm in PRC?

 

 

 

 

[Ocsimano18]

1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

I see... would be interesting to know what exactly it was, the NA thread speculates it was a flag, but I don't recall spotting the Rising Sun flag there on PTS. If it is related to the Rising Sun, we are of course back to the issue of WG embracing and catering to rampant racism with open arms while reaching for our wallets at the same time. If it's related to actual real war time propaganda content, then it is, naturally more understandable, though oddly onesided for them to be concerned over that.... and unfortunate that it effects this update unless they hotfix it relatively quickly.

 

Based on this information, or rather what is missing (a removed NA thread), it appears to be a flag which somehow I missed on PTS.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/ykvcxe/zipangu_port/

There were some banners praising the imperial navy. It blessed some Asian folks oppressed by the Japanese empire. In European context it would be like praising the third reich’s navy on some banners.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 minute ago, Ocsimano18 said:

There were some banners praising the imperial navy. It blessed some Asian folks oppressed by the Japanese empire. In European context it would be like praising the third reich’s navy on some banners.

 

In European context we might also then discuss the praising of the Soviet Navy as I pointed out... I'm aware that there were individual accounts of war crimes committed by some navies and that includes the US Navy as well, but I'm not aware of it being an actual policy in any of them. In other words, the historical slogans that were used are appropriate in my opinion (given the context) as long as there is no 'tainted glory' involved. If that is not appropriate, as some people seem to think, then the same strict policy should be applied without exception in which case we could start discussing a number of flags and if they have place in the game or not.

 

I'd rather not start any such discussions, but I'm not the one who keeps politicizing matters, it's WG and certain lobbies that keep doing it.

[Seraphice]

As previously quoted already in the post by Ahskance the port was turned off due to a mistake in the visuals.

 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[Montrala]

5 godzin temu, Yamashiro42 napisał:

Removed temporaly due to rework, as it apparently contained some Japanese Imperialistic texts that were offending other Asian nations.

 

But symbols of bloody regime, that oppressed several nations and is responsible for untold death toll and misery are welcome in the game. Standards...

[pra3y]

3 hours ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

In European context we might also then discuss the praising of the Soviet Navy as I pointed out... I'm aware that there were individual accounts of war crimes committed by some navies and that includes the US Navy as well, but I'm not aware of it being an actual policy in any of them. In other words, the historical slogans that were used are appropriate in my opinion (given the context) as long as there is no 'tainted glory' involved. If that is not appropriate, as some people seem to think, then the same strict policy should be applied without exception in which case we could start discussing a number of flags and if they have place in the game or not.

 

I'd rather not start any such discussions, but I'm not the one who keeps politicizing matters, it's WG and certain lobbies that keep doing it.

You can't blame them though since what the japs did in asia during ww2 is the equivalent or if not worse than what the nazis did.

 

Yet they were not punished for it in the same way germany was after the war and the leaders that committed/allowed the commission of all the atrocities are allowed to be enshrined and worshipped. The emperor allowed to continue to rule.

 

I mean even now, say anything remotely negative about the jewish people will result in universal condemnation, reminder about what they suffered during the holocaust and the label of anti-semite. Yet no one blinks an eye (in western countries) about the millions of chinese killed by the japs and those that they experimented on.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

[Montrala]

7 minut temu, pra3y napisał:

You can't blame them though since what the japs did in asia during ww2 is the equivalent or if not worse than what the nazis did.

 

We don't have nazi symbols in the game, while we have soviet symbols all over the game. Sure, being victors, they whitewashed hitory, but this does not change reality of soviet war (and peace) crimes.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

3 minutes ago, pra3y said:

You can't blame them though since what the japs did in asia during ww2 is the equivalent or if not worse than what the nazis did.

 

Yet they were not punished for it in the same way germany was after the war and the leaders that committed/allowed the commission of all the atrocities are allowed to be enshrined and worshipped. The emperor allowed to continue to rule.

 

I mean even now, say anything remotely negative about the jewish people will result in universal condemnation, reminder about what they suffered during the holocaust and the label of anti-semite. Yet no one blinks an eye (in western countries) about the millions of chinese killed by the japs and those that they experimented on.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

 

 

There are probably multiple reasons for these differences. Suffice it to say that there were distince ideological differences, different methods applied, and very different post war realities in play with the coming cold war in particular.

 

The Americans, of course, had the decisive say when it came to anything involving Japan. Prosecution for war crimes was a rather selective process in itself, and the Americans had their particular priorities. It's also worth pointing out that Japanese history leading up to 1945 is something that people outside of Japan have a much better knowledge of than most Japanese people. Unlike with Germany, too, most of this has been pretty effectively kept as a taboo subject, but when it comes to other countries, as I understand it compensations have long since been agreed upon.

 

I'm specifically not trying to have a political discussion, because of the rules and because the Rising Sun flag (or historical slogans that do not promote hateful ideology per say) should not be viewed as either promoting any particular political agenda any more than they do correspondingly in connection with other countries and other navies.

[Nauseica]

1 hour ago, Montrala said:

 

But symbols of bloody regime, that oppressed several nations and is responsible for untold death toll and misery are welcome in the game. Standards...

[Fatal_Ramses]

Oh yeah! Yesterday I too was wondering who had booted all my ships to the Ocean-"port". I sailed them back to Hamburg.

[lovelacebeer]

Avoiding the politics around who did what in WW2, as the ‘whataboutery’ always gets out of hand on the internet. 
 

I can understand why the banners would have provoked quite a bit of upset amongst Asian players. Actually I’m a bit surprised none of the WG staff in South Korea, Taiwan or Japan didn’t raise this issue earlier.

[Figment]

From a commercial point of view it's certainly understandable that conflicts are to be avoided by WG and a single game version is maintained that abides by the rules of all countries to keep things simple. Hence there are no crews either (German law on video game violence - though zombie or robot crews would have been fine, so I guess that's why the TransFormers captains could be on the ships?). I'm sure plenty of people might be offended by stuff if they wanted to be, but thing is, nobody objects to this symbol in national legislation. So since nobody seems to object in legislation banning the symbols, WG can continue using them.

 

If offending however would have been the reason to ban the symbols, then it's kinda weird that the Iron Cross is considered fine though, as that represents the Prusso-German militarist imperialism and irredentism and is based on the Teutonic Order's symbolism (northern crusaders). To me a German flag with the imperial cross on it is little different from a Dutch flag with a VOC symbol on it as that represents our colonial trade empire politics and the cause of so much misery. If it was just people being potentially offended, rather than legislation, one might argue that most nation states and their symbols in that period should be seen as offensive colonial symbols. Which means pretty much every national flag in game would have to be removed.

 

Does that mean people can't distance themselves from the political symbolism while playing the game? Of course you can distance yourself from this. First off people have no idea and second, just because they play a ship from a certain nationality in game doesn't mean they change their personal allegiance. Likely the same is true for political symbols. If nazi symbols or hammers and sickles would make someone politically involved in such movements...

 

 

Then I'd really wonder what playing Crusader Kings III does to them...

 

Oh... wait...

 

 

[lovelacebeer]

Actually I photographed the banners (on the 14th October)  in the port to show to some of my Asian friends to ask their opinions on this, as even my Mrs noticed and was surprised at how militaristic they were. 
 

Guess my bad for not putting that in the PTS feedback. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

3 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

Actually I photographed the banners (on the 14th October)  in the port to show to some of my Asian friends to ask their opinions on this, as even my Mrs noticed and was surprised at how militaristic they were. 
 

Guess my bad for not putting that in the PTS feedback. 

 

Depends on in which context you view the term 'militaristic'. Again, all combatants in WW2 (or any other war) would have used pretty militaristic and gung ho language for obvious reasons.

[Figment]

5 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

Actually I photographed the banners (on the 14th October)  in the port to show to some of my Asian friends to ask their opinions on this, as even my Mrs noticed and was surprised at how militaristic they were.

Damn those flags, ruining everything for the poor defenseless tugboats that we play with their rabbid militarism.

 

 

Remember people, flags bring out the militarist in you.

 

 

 

Not ships with 18 203mm gun barrels.

[pra3y]

1 hour ago, Montrala said:

 

We don't have nazi symbols in the game, while we have soviet symbols all over the game. Sure, being victors, they whitewashed hitory, but this does not change reality of soviet war (and peace) crimes.

Best then to remove all the national flags amd symbols eh 

[lovelacebeer]

4 minutes ago, Figment said:

Damn those flags, ruining everything for the poor defenseless tugboats that we play with their rabbid militarism.

 

 

Remember people, flags bring out the militarist in you.

 

 

 

Not ships with 18 203mm gun barrels.

Politics and history in East Asia is unbelievably complicated and there are those who keep tensions high deliberately for their own reasons/ political gain. 
 

It’s hard for westerners to appreciate just how sensitive these issues are out there until you have lived in East Asia. Yet at the same time Chinese people couldn’t understand why I didn’t want to attend any of their Nazi themed night clubs where you get to play dress up. 
 

WG are far safer pulling the port and changing the banners, it’s just not to their benefit to deal with all the politics involved. 

[lovelacebeer]

18 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Depends on in which context you view the term 'militaristic'. Again, all combatants in WW2 (or any other war) would have used pretty militaristic and gung ho language for obvious reasons.

Very true but WG does give us a very sanitised experience of the wars covered in the game.
 

Considering how badly wrong this could go for them I really don’t blame WG for pulling the port to rework it, before an Politicians in certain countries decide to get involved.