CV vs Submarine problem...

[M_A_E_stro]

Gentlemen, you may not like CVs, and they may even be the strongest ships in the game, but a ship type cannot be left completely defenseless. After all, every ship type has AA, and it can defend itself well against planes and reduce damage. But leaving CVs completely vulnerable to Submarines is not fair at all. If battleships and even cruisers can send planes for submarines, CVs should be able to send these planes in the first place. When a submarine approaches CV, the CV is just waiting to die. He can't escape, he can't hide, he can't defend himself. CV planes can shoot down submarines, but first of all it is very difficult to spot a sub from the air. Secondly, when the planes approach the submarine, the submarine sinks to the bottom. Don't do this, give CVs defense weapons against submarine. 

 

 

 

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

Better: Give plane factories and missile submarines a separate game mode where they can happily grief each other, so the vast majority of players can once again enjoy the game.

[DiceTea]

They should have ASW capabilities. As CV, you are helpless against subs, even the worst players. All you can hope is that they cannot aim torpedoes. And no, bombs and rockets dont work. Even if it is spotted (which is hard), or if  you manage to get there in time, you cannot hit it. The diving process is way too fast. 

[Bear__Necessities]

18 minutes ago, M_A_E_stro said:

CVs, and they may even be the strongest ships in the game, but a ship type cannot be left completely defenseless.

 

18 minutes ago, M_A_E_stro said:

After all, every ship type has AA, and it can defend itself well against planes and reduce damage.

Ohhhhhh boi, I'd say a FAIR few players would take issue with that. I mean, I think my minikaze highest plane kill tally is.... 1. A huge and MIGHTY number I think we can all agree. 

 

18 minutes ago, M_A_E_stro said:

He can't escape, he can't hide, he can't defend himself

Well... now the shoe is on the other foot. I'm sure you'll have legions coming to back your point up....

 

As for the actual point. That's just subs. It's how WG want them. Ain't nobody gonna stop that pain train in progress.

[M_A_E_stro]

6 dakika önce, DiceTea dedi:

They should have ASW capabilities. As CV, you are helpless against subs, even the worst players. All you can hope is that they cannot aim torpedoes. And no, bombs and rockets dont work. Even if it is spotted (which is hard), or if  you manage to get there in time, you cannot hit it. The diving process is way too fast. 

That's exactly what i'm talking about.

[COPlUM]

Submarines can kill me and I can't kill them. You mean exactly like how you can kill everyone else and they can't do anything to you? Confronting CVs with a healthy dose of irony is the only positive submarines bring to the game. You're playing flying submarines man, what you feel when the submarine comes for you is what everyone else on the map feels when you come for them, they can't do anything, just die.

[black_falcon120]

CV main here, while i do agree that CV vs subs is a bad mechanic, staying relatively mobile seems to ensure that they can't do much damage to me.

 

While I do agree, I do note that as subs don't have aa, it makes it means less aa on the team.

 

That said, it is incredibly frustrating to have an enemy ship you cannot attack in any way, and I do think it should be changed. I do note that at higher tiers, ships with good aa can seriously disrupt a CVs ability to get mulitple strikes off in a squadron, and I don't accept that CV vs subs is equivalent to CV vs Surface ships, and indeed I created a thread a few months ago about this exact issue.

[COPlUM]

1 minute ago, black_falcon120 said:

CV main here. It is incredibly frustrating to have an enemy ship you cannot attack in any way.

Just dodge

[black_falcon120]

2 minutes ago, COPlUM said:

Just dodge

If you read my reply you’ll see that I have already addressed this point. You can often dodge most plane strikes (maybe not for cv unicorns) but submarines have homing torpedoes so can’t be dodged.

[COPlUM]

9 minutes ago, black_falcon120 said:

If you read my reply you’ll see that I have already addressed this point. You can often dodge most plane strikes (maybe not for cv unicorns) but submarines have homing torpedoes so can’t be dodged.

You mean the only counter play you have is dodge so you die slower? Man, that's like, completely, totally and exactly the same as every other ship in the game when carriers drop them. Carriers have far more counter play against submarines than surface ships have against carriers, you can still hope the submarine is a potato and surfaces with your planes on top of him. Surface ships can't even do that against you, game lasts 20 minutes without you ever being seen. This topic is pointless anyway, we all know CVs will be immune to submarine torpedoes before the end of summer. They already made you immune to every other form of damage.

[NewHorizons_1]

37 minutes ago, black_falcon120 said:

While I do agree, I do note that as subs don't have aa, it makes it means less aa on the team.

Weren't you the guy who wanted ships with no AA?

Well there they are, if you can find them.

 

It is funny to hear about a griefing class being greifed by another.

But, there should be some way for a CV to counter a sub.

Then again, it would be nice if there was a way for a DD to be a hard counter to a sub. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[KhorneFlake]

You want to defend yourself against subs?

Play another game.

[NewHorizons_1]

Some word substitution, and it still kinda makes sense.

 

1 hour ago, M_A_E_stro said:

Gentlemen, you may like surface ships, and they may even be the strongest ships in the game, but a ship type cannot be left completely defenseless. After all, despite every ship type having AA, and it cannot defend itself well against planes to reduce damage. But leaving surface ships completely vulnerable to CVs is not fair at all. If CVs can send fighter planes anywhere, surface ships should be able to send these planes to intercept the strike too. When a CV squadron approaches surface ship, the surface ship is just waiting to die. He can't escape, he can't hide, he can't defend himself. AA can shoot down some of the planes, but it is very difficult to exhaust the CV's replacement aircraft. Secondly, when the planes execute their attack run on the surface ship, the planes become invulnerable. Don't do this, give surface ships defense weapons against CVs. 

 

 

[Bear__Necessities]

11 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Some word substitution, and it still kinda makes sense.

 

1 hour ago, M_A_E_stro said:

Gentlemen, you may like surface ships, and they may even be the strongest ships in the game, but a ship type cannot be left completely defenseless. After all, despite every ship type having AA, and it cannot defend itself well against planes to reduce damage. But leaving surface ships completely vulnerable to CVs is not fair at all. If CVs can send fighter planes anywhere, surface ships should be able to send these planes to intercept the strike too. When a CV squadron approaches surface ship, the surface ship is just waiting to die. He can't escape, he can't hide, he can't defend himself. AA can shoot down some of the planes, but it is very difficult to exhaust the CV's replacement aircraft. Secondly, when the planes execute their attack run on the surface ship, the planes become invulnerable. Don't do this, give surface ships defense weapons against CVs. 

 

 

#JuSt DoDgE

[M_A_E_stro]

You may not like CVs, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be objective. We are not asking if the CV is part of this game. CV is already part of this game, that's a separate issue. I hate Subs too. However, since subs are a part of the game like CVs, I accept this and come up with ideas for balancing. Why would it be impossible for CV to win when CV vs Sub remains. Why can't CVs hit Sub like other ships? Here I want to address this issue

[lovelacebeer]

Whilst I admit there is a rather delicious irony that CVs get to experience what they have been dishing out so happily for so long.
 

Sadly the attitudes of many CV gameplay proponents has not helped build a good foundation for a positive discussion on this issue. The whole “just dodge”and “it’s a team game you should expect teammates to help” answers given in CV discussions are absolutely applicable to CV vs sub discussions. 
 

Still it should be noted the OP does have a point, the lack of thought put into the sub project and the lack of interaction is indicative of WGs lazy attitude to both subs and CVs. So the options left for a CV is mostly the fact they are fast and can run for it, as well as that they spawn near the back so have time to roughly gauge where a sub might be coming from. They can do precious little to assist their team as subs can dive so fast. 
 

I can’t help but wonder why WG don’t at least test giving CVs either a class of planes that can drop sonar buoys to spot for the team or give them depth charge planes for self defence.

[OldSchoolFrankie]

I nominate you for the funniest opening post, really unbeatable.  Congratulations in advance.

 

 

Edit says this post needs a GIF!

 

[NewHorizons_1]

2 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

I can’t help but wonder why WG don’t at least test giving CVs either a class of planes that can drop sonar buoys to spot for the team ...

I was hoping that might have been a feature for the proposed Support CVs.

Instead WG (initially) came up with stun bombs.

[Shirakami_Kon]

Funny of you OP to make it sound like ASW is efficient in any way, provided we get to even see where the submarine is and where to launch or planes to to begin with and implying that we aren't ALL defenseless against this bs.

[NewHorizons_1]

16 minutes ago, Shirakami_Kon said:

Funny of you OP to make it sound like ASW is efficient in any way, provided we get to even see where the submarine is and where to launch or planes to to begin with and implying that we aren't ALL defenseless against this bs.

Being defenceless and useless against your opponents are probably alien concepts for many CV players. They're still getting used to them.

[Animalul2012]

Yeah just taste a bit of your own medicine. Not like 99% of ships in the game have trash AA and are food for the griefiers in they re CVs who can spot and damage you whenever they want. 

All ships have AA? Ever heard of Agincourt, arkansas? Even the likes of viribus unitis can qualify with how almost non existent the AA is. Go beg your teammates to erase him like cruisers want a battleship, like destroyers want a cruiser, like battleships want a destroyer. Now you know what the other classes feel when they encounter a CV, aka ship choice for mentally disabled.

[M_A_E_stro]

48 dakika önce, lovelacebeer dedi:

I can’t help but wonder why WG don’t at least test giving CVs either a class of planes that can drop sonar buoys to spot for the team or give them depth charge planes for self defence.

I'm really curious about that too, why aren't submarine attack aircraft being tested for CVs?

[lovelacebeer]

10 minutes ago, M_A_E_stro said:

I'm really curious about that too, why aren't submarine attack aircraft being tested for CVs?

It does seem silly, NewHorizons made a very good point they could even have made it an aspect of the proposed Support CVs. 
 

It’s getting to the point where I wonder if it’s deliberate and CVs are meant to be defenceless, or WG are just desperate to make subs popular.

[NewHorizons_1]

56 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

It does seem silly, NewHorizons made a very good point they could even have made it an aspect of the proposed Support CVs. 
 

It’s getting to the point where I wonder if it’s deliberate and CVs are meant to be defenceless, or WG are just desperate to make subs popular.

Yanking CV player's chains aside , I'd like to see CVs to be able to drop ASW or fighter squadrons anywhere on the map by, say, right-clicking on the mini-map and select "ASW squadron" or "Fighter squadron" from a drop down menu.

That location could be somewhere completely different to where their bomber/rocket squadron currently is so it has negligible effect on their strike capability.

These squadrons wouldn't spot surface ships so that they don't screw over DD players who are trying to ninja their way around the map.

This might go some way to remedy the two hard to counter classes in the game.

 

First ASW plane drops a sonar buoy, ala @lovelacebeer, while the rest circle around waiting to drop depth charges.

Subs gets to know he's been sonar'd, could be a different indication to that for hydro, but not where the buoy is when submerged at any depth.

When detected the first DC plane drops its load.

There's a delay to allow the sub to try and evade, then the next plane drop its DCs. Number of DC planes increases by tier and could vary from nation to nation as could the delay between DC drops.

Could also be two or three planes per wave depending on how many DCs they drop, their explosion radius and max damage etc.

Coverage area of sonar buoy & squadron depends on how much distance a sub can cover while the ASW squad is active so depends on speed of sub, number of DC planes and delay between their strikes.

That could be quite large at T10 - fast subs * larger number of DC planes * DC drop delay.

Debatable whether the spotting by the sonar buoy should be shared with the CV player's team mates.

It could be OP if the sub is within ASW airstrike range of other team mates.

 

[ghostbuster_]

5 hours ago, COPlUM said:

Submarines can kill me and I can't kill them. You mean exactly like how you can kill everyone else and they can't do anything to you? Confronting CVs with a healthy dose of irony is the only positive submarines bring to the game. You're playing flying submarines man, what you feel when the submarine comes for you is what everyone else on the map feels when you come for them, they can't do anything, just die.

Just because CVs are broken it doesnt mean that a class having absolutely 0 tools to damage subs is actually ok. You can not justfy a broken mechanic with an other broken mechanic. You have to fix both. How dumb is that please... Im all against CV s and yes I do think they are broken af, there is no counterplay against CVs and it is not ok. But this doesnt mean CVs shouldnt get asw. ffs 

 

Seriously some people act like little kids..."I have no counterplay against you so you should have no counterplay against subs! Hahaha" jesus! Both should be fixed.