Realistic Carrier Operations

[Marrant]

SCENARIO:

As a, primarily, DD player, I've had the unfortunate experience of getting my Tier 5 DD sunk by a Tier 6 CV 7 times out of the last 15 battles, and on 2 occasions, before I managed to leave the spawning cap.

 

As we know, CVs aircraft have the run of the map. It's almost impossible for a DD, even with cammo, to avoid being detected and subjected to a hail of gunfire from enemy ships while trying to avoid incoming aircraft. It makes it impossible to do our Spotting Job effectively. On 1 occasion, roughly 45 seconds into the match, I was transiting out of our cap, on the way to do some spotting, when I was rocket attacked by the enemy CV, which took just under half my HP. He immediately returned those fighters ( F key ), while at the same time launching another Rocket Aircraft attack on me. He knew roughly where I was and found me immediately, getting me down to 950 HP while I was trying to dodge and being almost obliterated from enemy ships 13km away. Eventually, I was killed by gunfire from who knows which direction, even with my smoke up. Lucky shot I suppose. All the time the CV sat safely on the other side of the zone, and continued plinking at slow moving BBs. So, 45 seconds from spawn to dead, after sitting in a queue for 4.5 minutes. Not fun.

 

OBSERVATION OF GAME MECHANICS:

 

1. CVs can sit at the far side of the zone, safe inside their spawn area and send wave after wave of aircraft to spot the enemy for their team, while doing Rocket or Torpedo Attacks without fear or penalty, with practically limitless supplies of aircraft. Even with good AA, it's rare to stop a Rocket or Torpedo attack by killing all the aircraft in a flight, you have to accept some WILL get through the AA barrage.

2. After carrying out an attack, the CV presses the F key ( Default for Return to Carrier ). The aircraft currently in an attack formation ( having released their Rockets / Torps / Bombs ) turn round and return, but for some reason we can't shoot those returning aircraft down. The CV then immediately launches another flight while the remains of the first flight are returning. Rinse and repeat for continuous damage xp.

3. Two CVs on an enemy team, especially when most of us are Tier 5 and the CVs are Tier 6 ( ie a Tier 6 match ), is an absolute nightmare. They dictate the battle by spotting while out of AA range, or concentrating fire on DDs or slow BBs. 

4. As an example, of the 15 battles I stated in the Scenario, there was 1 CV in 7 of them, and 2 CVs in 1 of them. Completely and utterly spoiling the fun for BBs and DDs, as it's almost impossible to get a DD within shooting / torpedo range of a CV without getting detected, in which case you get spotted and subjected to Rain of Fire. ALSO, note that, of the 4 matches with CVs that we won, in 3 of them, the last player on the enemy team was a CV. This is a common occurrence. They just head towards the corner of the map where it's relatively safe for them to launch wave after wave at the pursuers until they eventually get the kills or their luck runs out and they are gunned down. In my Tier 5 DD with Engine Boost activated, I couldn't close the gap on the CV, he was actually faster than I was with my Engine Boost on. Surely, First and Second World War CVs couldn't do 32 knots ? 

 

SUGGESTIONS FOR A REALISTIC CV OPERATIONS:

 

1. In reality, aircraft are subjected to a maximum flight distance from their CV before they have to return for re fuelling. It's called being 'Bingo Fuel'. Limit the operational distance of aircraft from the parent CV to add SOME realism to the CV operations. As an arbitrary number, I suggest limiting CV aircraft to a 13km operational area. When an aircraft has flown 13km from the ship they auto return to ship. If no one likes that suggestion, place a 13km perimeter marker around the CV ( viewable by the CV captain only ) which shows the CV captain his operational area for aircraft. You could also add a timed flight limit instead , say 2 minutes per aircraft flight, again, arbitrary. All of these suggestions in this paragraph emulate aircraft operations of real life Bingo Fuel situations.

 

2. Letting CVs sit at the top of their zone, behind an island, sending out waves of aircraft by using the F key ( default for Return To Carrier ) and then immediately launching another flight needs reworking. As an example of a 'fix', the CV captain should only be allowed the use of the F key IF HIS CURRENT FLIGHT of aircraft has not yet engaged. If his flight has engaged, he has to continue the attack until all his current flight are killed  ( with a maximum of 2 attacks ) OR he can break off the attack and have to remain in that flight while travelling back to the CV. He cannot launch another flight until the current flight has landed or is destroyed.

 

3. No matches with 2 CVs , especially given the current mechanics.

 

4. In one match, not a tier 5, I was on HMS Edinburgh and shot down 37 enemy aircraft and gained an award. THAT's just the ones that I shot down, I have no idea how many others were shot down by my team. This was against a Japanese Carrier that seemed to have an unending supply of aircraft. In a 20 minute, timed, Random Battle, there needs to be a tighter limit on the number of aircraft a CV carries. I'm not bothered about 'type' such as Rocket, Bomb, Torp, just the total amount of planes a CV carries at the moment is a bit too high for a match. At the moment, they launch, attack, press F, launch, attack , rinse and repeat, all the time staying well out of harms way, or they have the speed and position to STAY out of harms way while continuing to send out wave after wave. 

 

ADDITIONAL NOTE:

 

Don't even get me started on trying to play a submarine. Out of fairness, I played over 80 matches in a submarine and gave up, consigning them to the trash can. Once you are spotted, for whatever reason, 5 or so ships send out those aerial depth charge aircraft to your general area and you then have the life expectancy of a Hill Giant in Everquest. As for the supposed Homing Torpedoes. I lost count of the times I fired 4 torpedoes at a ship, watch them close on the enemy via the little markers on the mini map, ping the ship TWICE when the torps were between 3 and 5 km from the ship, and watched as they happily carried on their merry way on the original course without changing direction to home in on the pinged ship. And before you say anything, I usually waited until the ship's Damage Control was on cooldown so that the couldn't negate the pings, or he didn't use his Damage Control after I pinged him. Darned Homing Torpedoes just don't. 

 

Comments on the above suggestions, please. And no flames, this is a serious suggestion.

[_Lupastro_]

[HMS_Britannia]

That is CV play working as intended, they get the most help out of all classes except maybe subs 

WG will not change it because then the less skilled players that can’t play anything else will leave and the cv population will drop and WG have said they won’t allow that to happen, cos that then admits that the CV rework was a total failure and a waste of time and money 

[CV_SUB_Report_Blacklist]

the guy with picture above gave me a brief on what about this thread is ... so i will give the it my Yes . :D

 

2 minutes ago, HMS_Britannia said:

That is CV play working as intended, they get the most help out of all classes except maybe subs 

WG will not change it because then the less skilled players that can’t play anything else will leave and the cv population will drop and WG have said they won’t allow that to happen, cos that then admits that the CV rework was a total failure and a waste of time and money 

we didnt ask much , just some nerfing damage or nerfing spotting , or increasing AA , and we can say okaaay , we only ask for a playable thing 

[Isoruku_Yamamoto]

2 hours ago, Marrant said:

SCENARIO:

As a, primarily, DD player, I've had the unfortunate experience of getting my Tier 5 DD sunk by a Tier 6 CV 7 times out of the last 15 battles, and on 2 occasions, before I managed to leave the spawning cap.

 

As we know, CVs aircraft have the run of the map. It's almost impossible for a DD, even with cammo, to avoid being detected and subjected to a hail of gunfire from enemy ships while trying to avoid incoming aircraft. It makes it impossible to do our Spotting Job effectively. On 1 occasion, roughly 45 seconds into the match, I was transiting out of our cap, on the way to do some spotting, when I was rocket attacked by the enemy CV, which took just under half my HP. He immediately returned those fighters ( F key ), while at the same time launching another Rocket Aircraft attack on me. He knew roughly where I was and found me immediately, getting me down to 950 HP while I was trying to dodge and being almost obliterated from enemy ships 13km away. Eventually, I was killed by gunfire from who knows which direction, even with my smoke up. Lucky shot I suppose. All the time the CV sat safely on the other side of the zone, and continued plinking at slow moving BBs. So, 45 seconds from spawn to dead, after sitting in a queue for 4.5 minutes. Not fun.

 

OBSERVATION OF GAME MECHANICS:

 

1. CVs can sit at the far side of the zone, safe inside their spawn area and send wave after wave of aircraft to spot the enemy for their team, while doing Rocket or Torpedo Attacks without fear or penalty, with practically limitless supplies of aircraft. Even with good AA, it's rare to stop a Rocket or Torpedo attack by killing all the aircraft in a flight, you have to accept some WILL get through the AA barrage.

2. After carrying out an attack, the CV presses the F key ( Default for Return to Carrier ). The aircraft currently in an attack formation ( having released their Rockets / Torps / Bombs ) turn round and return, but for some reason we can't shoot those returning aircraft down. The CV then immediately launches another flight while the remains of the first flight are returning. Rinse and repeat for continuous damage xp.

3. Two CVs on an enemy team, especially when most of us are Tier 5 and the CVs are Tier 6 ( ie a Tier 6 match ), is an absolute nightmare. They dictate the battle by spotting while out of AA range, or concentrating fire on DDs or slow BBs. 

4. As an example, of the 15 battles I stated in the Scenario, there was 1 CV in 7 of them, and 2 CVs in 1 of them. Completely and utterly spoiling the fun for BBs and DDs, as it's almost impossible to get a DD within shooting / torpedo range of a CV without getting detected, in which case you get spotted and subjected to Rain of Fire. ALSO, note that, of the 4 matches with CVs that we won, in 3 of them, the last player on the enemy team was a CV. This is a common occurrence. They just head towards the corner of the map where it's relatively safe for them to launch wave after wave at the pursuers until they eventually get the kills or their luck runs out and they are gunned down. In my Tier 5 DD with Engine Boost activated, I couldn't close the gap on the CV, he was actually faster than I was with my Engine Boost on. Surely, First and Second World War CVs couldn't do 32 knots ? 

 

SUGGESTIONS FOR A REALISTIC CV OPERATIONS:

 

1. In reality, aircraft are subjected to a maximum flight distance from their CV before they have to return for re fuelling. It's called being 'Bingo Fuel'. Limit the operational distance of aircraft from the parent CV to add SOME realism to the CV operations. As an arbitrary number, I suggest limiting CV aircraft to a 13km operational area. When an aircraft has flown 13km from the ship they auto return to ship. If no one likes that suggestion, place a 13km perimeter marker around the CV ( viewable by the CV captain only ) which shows the CV captain his operational area for aircraft. You could also add a timed flight limit instead , say 2 minutes per aircraft flight, again, arbitrary. All of these suggestions in this paragraph emulate aircraft operations of real life Bingo Fuel situations.

 

2. Letting CVs sit at the top of their zone, behind an island, sending out waves of aircraft by using the F key ( default for Return To Carrier ) and then immediately launching another flight needs reworking. As an example of a 'fix', the CV captain should only be allowed the use of the F key IF HIS CURRENT FLIGHT of aircraft has not yet engaged. If his flight has engaged, he has to continue the attack until all his current flight are killed  ( with a maximum of 2 attacks ) OR he can break off the attack and have to remain in that flight while travelling back to the CV. He cannot launch another flight until the current flight has landed or is destroyed.

 

3. No matches with 2 CVs , especially given the current mechanics.

 

4. In one match, not a tier 5, I was on HMS Edinburgh and shot down 37 enemy aircraft and gained an award. THAT's just the ones that I shot down, I have no idea how many others were shot down by my team. This was against a Japanese Carrier that seemed to have an unending supply of aircraft. In a 20 minute, timed, Random Battle, there needs to be a tighter limit on the number of aircraft a CV carries. I'm not bothered about 'type' such as Rocket, Bomb, Torp, just the total amount of planes a CV carries at the moment is a bit too high for a match. At the moment, they launch, attack, press F, launch, attack , rinse and repeat, all the time staying well out of harms way, or they have the speed and position to STAY out of harms way while continuing to send out wave after wave. 

 

ADDITIONAL NOTE:

 

Don't even get me started on trying to play a submarine. Out of fairness, I played over 80 matches in a submarine and gave up, consigning them to the trash can. Once you are spotted, for whatever reason, 5 or so ships send out those aerial depth charge aircraft to your general area and you then have the life expectancy of a Hill Giant in Everquest. As for the supposed Homing Torpedoes. I lost count of the times I fired 4 torpedoes at a ship, watch them close on the enemy via the little markers on the mini map, ping the ship TWICE when the torps were between 3 and 5 km from the ship, and watched as they happily carried on their merry way on the original course without changing direction to home in on the pinged ship. And before you say anything, I usually waited until the ship's Damage Control was on cooldown so that the couldn't negate the pings, or he didn't use his Damage Control after I pinged him. Darned Homing Torpedoes just don't. 

 

Comments on the above suggestions, please. And no flames, this is a serious suggestion.

Id like to point out some flaws in your post.

 

1. You make no mention of the tier 5 DD whatsoever. Which one was it? Visby? Mutsuki? Makes a difference eh

2. You can shoot down returning aircraft, even more easily so than any other.

3. You expect a degree of realism that you clearly would not want to see imposed on other classes with fuel range etc, should destroyers only get 1 set of torpedos then?

4. Shooting down 37 aircraft doesnt mean you shot down 37 "bombers". You may have shot down 20+ deployed fighters. Like before, we need proper context to judge the situation.

5. Ill admit without hesitation that 2CVs on tier 6 can be bloody annoying.

Even for the CVs themselves and there are two easy solutions- reintroduce odd tier CVs or seriously lower the XP grind. Higher tier CVs get boring to play anyway.

6. Lastly, and this is honestly not meant to flame, but try to invest time in understanding the game. People who play better tend to know:

Maps

Ship statistics (concealment, armour, reload, consumables, AA etc)

Dodging tactics

Early game positioning

Etc

 

Judging by your profile, particularly for DDs a problem seems to be that you rush to the middle of the map. When you know CVs are present, adjust your tactics.

 

As for the other suggestions: i used to play CVs but honestly at this point theyve been nerfed so much i dont really enjoy most of them anymore.

At this point, any further nerfing should include WG scrapping the class altogether

 

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

I agree with you basically - I just want to point out that when you turn off your AA, you're way harder to attack for a CV. Just turn it on when spotted, then he will have to turn around in your AA bubble because the distance is too short for an attack run. And then you can deceide, either kill the remaining planes (if you have good AA) or turn it off again and reposition, say, turn towards the planes and steam ahead, making him overshoot his next attack if you're lucky.

You can also smoke up - for british DDs it's not a big deal - costing him time where he could steamroll other targets.

 

This is basically the counterplay. Annoy the CV so he finds easier targets to murder.

 

gg WG

[________________Morrison]

CVS need easy gameplay inorder to foster for the kids Among Us. 

[Itwastuesday]

Okay, while it sucks to be harried by CV in a low tier 2 hillbillies with shotguns aa destroyer, you shouldn't eat a pile of rockets.

 

And don't die. It's boring, CV's suck, and so on, but don't die. Just turn back toward your fleet, don't be in line of sight of a million ships, kite away if you are, play boring and wait until you can do something. 

 

Allowing a potato CV the satisfaction of getting you killed will only encourage them

[Ronchabale]

Get rid of the spotting, the fact that the cv somehow teleports visual information to the gunsights of other ships is the main issue

[NewHorizons_1]

4 hours ago, HMS_Britannia said:

That is CV play working as intended, they get the most help out of all classes except maybe subs

I dunno CVs get all kinds of unnecessary assistance: invulnerability phases for planes, can't be detonated (anyone know if a sub can be det'd?) and get auto damage control which makes them harder to inflict flooding/fire damage - unlike a sub which can be flooded/burnt to death.

[Figment]

1 hour ago, Karkong_the_Impaler said:

I agree with you basically - I just want to point out that when you turn off your AA, you're way harder to attack for a CV. Just turn it on when spotted, then he will have to turn around in your AA bubble because the distance is too short for an attack run. And then you can deceide, either kill the remaining planes (if you have good AA) or turn it off again and reposition, say, turn towards the planes and steam ahead, making him overshoot his next attack if you're lucky.

You can also smoke up - for british DDs it's not a big deal - costing him time where he could steamroll other targets.

 

This is basically the counterplay. Annoy the CV so he finds easier targets to murder.

 

gg WG

Not so much annoy as making them ineffective.

 

@OP The above easily results in a couple attack waves (if not the entire run) wasted that creates a few (ten)thousand damage in not applied DPS and if the CV loses aircraft might cost the CV its late game attack runs at which point you can (nearly) cruise up to them and shoot them in the face with whatever your team has left at that point.

 

If your CV has less skilled opponents at mitigating CVs, your team will get an advantage.

 

 

It's still a team game and reducing the efficiency of the enemy to improve your team's chances of winning is part of the game.

 

 

Certainly at T6 a DD shouldn't have too much issue with getting out of spawn and approaching enemy CVs tbh. But if you have AA on constantly, then you're going to give them (as Karkong pointed out) a good line up on you and you're basically inviting them to target you. A DD should have enough stealth to make enemy aircraft have to do a circle about (which makes you invisible again or if you turned well makes the enemy air do an even longer circling around to get a good angle on you, often costing them half or more of the aircraft). Especially if you manage to distract them such that they run into flak from cruisers. And when you're still in your spawn, it shouldn't be too hard to manage to get them to fly into your cruiser's AA and reconsider if they should target you.

[_Mad_Thom_]

6 hours ago, Marrant said:

As a, primarily, DD player, I've had the unfortunate experience of getting my Tier 5 DD sunk by a Tier 6 CV 7 times out of the last 15 battles, and on 2 occasions, before I managed to leave the spawning cap.

 

I have almost 20K battles, played 31% of those in DD's, and cannot remember a time when a CV killed me in the spawning cap.

 

Perhaps you should spend your time on improving your gameplay rather than writing long diatribes about changing the game. Especially since WG is not listening.

[Profilus]

2 hours ago, Ronchabale said:

the fact that the cv somehow teleports visual information to the gunsights of other ships is the main issue

Will it make sense if you replace cv in your sentence with any other class ?

[Ronchabale]

Just now, Profilus said:

Will it make sense if you replace cv in your sentence with any other class ?

That too

[illy]

i just had  a tier 8 Russian CV attack me while i was in a FDG, it set 6 fires in 2 attacks, i recently almost deleted my account because of the CV situation.... i am getting close to doing it again because the game is a pale imitation of what it once was and CVs are a complete disaster for this software, i have to be careful criticising cvs because i'll get another ban from the forum

 

Once you air your opinion you are no longer part of the silent majority and therefore ignored, the silent majority are only catered for because they buy things, this is about cash flow and nothing else

 

don't expect anything to improve, it will just get more desperate

[lovelacebeer]

There has long been an issue with the impact of CVs in game to a certain extent WG have attempted to address some of these issues. Whether they have succeeded is a matter of some substantial debate on here. 
 

As others have said as a DD your best bet is usually to turn off AA to make you harder to find a lot of mediocre CV players will give up trying and go hunt something else. Only using your AA when your clearly spotted and he is on an attack run. 
 

I prefer to turn into most CV attacks trying to reduce their reaction time. The machine gun strafing by rocket planes was an effort by WG to give DD and some light cruiser players a chance of dodging the attack.

 

If necessary because the attacks are so persistent it is often wise to try and get under the AA umbrella of bigger ships, whilst WG did nerf the effect of over lapping AA some time ago it all helps. Especially if their CV is not that good at dodging flak. 

 

Being the focus of an enemy CV especially when he is persistent throughout the game is extremely frustrating, and the most annoying thing is your main contribution to the team is usually the vain hope your team are capitalising on their CV being distracted. Still best you can do is make yourself as difficult a target as possible.
 

As for the spotting issue according to WG they are still doing closed testing around this issue, it has been suggested there should be a delay like there is with radar. As to what the outcome of such testing remains to be seen. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Yeah...

 

If only we had a real development team at WG, then we could get all sorts of exciting game modes like:

 

Carrier Battles

Battle Line

Convoy Raiding

Skirmish

.....

[SodaBubbles]

Cant make CVs more realistic.

 

The griefers would have to think 

[Takethatyoubeast]

If you balance CV’s then no one will play them as only a very good CV player would still be able to thrive 

 

As with subs WG just use a bIgger hammer to get the square peg in the round hole 

[Ronchabale]

4 hours ago, illy said:

 

Once you air your opinion you are no longer part of the silent majority and therefore ignored, the silent majority are only catered for because they buy things, this is about cash flow and nothing else

 

 

Not saying anything is for sure not gonna change anything

[PaP_Mentoles]

The only realistic scenario for CVs is to be blown in port 

[SV_Kompresor]

I think wg should add the word "realistic" to the profanity filter, that way it can no longer be used. It's a word for bad arguments regardless of which way it goes.

[KratosTheUnforgiving]

We've been here before, said it all, WG deaf, dumb and plain ignorant, same old excuse from their sad book of excuses, they won't or can't accept and acknowledge they can't balance the class, same as they won't be able to balance subs, so blindly go forth, as they are clueless and that's being generous and restrained in an accurate description.

[Takethatyoubeast]

For any class to be balanced, they must have a counter 

 

CV’s lack that - that is not the CV players fault as they are playing a class designed and “balanced” by WG 

 

Had a ranked battle where my full AA spec Harleem managed to shoot down 13 Kaga planes from 3 strikes - oh how me and the cat laughed 🤣

[illy]

3 hours ago, Ronchabale said:

 

Not saying anything is for sure not gonna change anything

well i personally i think just focus them in game and make life as hard for them as possible, maybe that will change things.... no doubt i'll be warned for saying such an outrage