2 Sub +1 CV = Boring game

[deathsadow]

Its been a few days when the MM decided to drop me into games with this double submarine + CV game, often with multiple DDs to top it of with usualy max 1-2 Cruiser, and damn those games were absolutely unplayably boring.

 

Each of the games went as following:

 

• DDs went to the furthest flank of the map
• Subs lurked the middle
• BBs camped out to 20+ km from the closest enemy eighter bow on and sailing backwards or in kiting position.
• The poor cruiser was murdered early on by the focus fire of sub, CV and 5 BB
• And than there was a 10+ minute max range RNG test fest, and the team whith the better CV won the game

 

WG should really start implementing some restictions on the MM cause if half the team plays DD and subs & the other half is BB and CV the game just becomes insanely boring, and pretty broken. The game should be working by the rock paper scrissors base, but with the 2 subs and CV around and cruisers going close to extinct on high tier MM the game just gets broken & turns into a boring campfest.

 

The main reason i think the meta is broken now:

1. Too few surface ship
2. Too good vision from CV
3. Subs are nuts... stealthy, tanky, and deadly with the torp shotguning
4. We got gunboat DDs with almost 28k HP smoke and better DPM than a Des Moines .. yeah im looking at the Sherman with its 260k HE DPM and 387k SAP DPM.
5. Too few cruisers in the MM

 

How to try fixing it in my opinion:

1. Limit MM to 1 CV OR 1 Sub, leaving 11 surface ship on each team
2. Add radio range to each plane, only ships in radio range see the ship, rest just get a marker on the map for it
3. Buff the depth charge, make hydro spot sub regardless of its depth, add more arming distance on the sub torps
4. Nerf the DPM on those crazy guns, ships like Kitakaze and Daring already has good enough dpm to be the top dogs of DDs, no DD should have CL leves of dpm .. or if they do they should get a citadel too.
5. Cruisers needs another rework for the cpt skills with skill to both fit the flanking playstyle and the large cruisers too. And maybe the cruisers even need a buff in utility, BBs are catching up in camo value to them,  Incomparable 10.6km camo while the before mentioned Des Moines has 10.9km. DDs are cathcing up in HP while not having a citadell some DDs are in the 30k ish range Elbing even 34k, and some already catch up in firepower. The only thing left going for cruisers is the utility and mid-long range accuracy, adding even more reliable long range DPM would be bad for the game so adding more utility to them seem to be a better way to go, maybe adding all cruiser the ability to run Hydro and DEF AA, and maybe adding some additional consumable for some of the older powercreeped lines would revitalize cruiser play ( eg: adding short burst smoke (like UK DD) to IJN line or Warspite kind of heal to the KM line)

 

WG should put some more effort in shaking up the meta from this passive state, where flanking ambushing and brawling will be a thing again, and subs, torpedo reload boost and jet planes doesnt seem to be helping in this regard.

[JohnMac79]

[Bear__Necessities]

Try 3 subs per team and 2 CV's. It was one of the most frustrating games I've ever had. And this was mid tier. I'm an experienced veteran with skill behind me. I can't imagine how bad it was for newer players etc. 

 

[NewHorizons_1]

19 minutes ago, deathsadow said:

.... maybe adding all cruiser the ability to run Hydro and DEF AA ...

Some already can (T6+ USN CLs), but I always thought it was a strange there's two separate AA actions (Def AA & Priority Sector).

Why not merge the effects of Def AA into Priority Sector?

OK, it would be a buff to many cruisers**, but it's not like AA is overpowered or even adequate.

Maybe buff AA on USN CLs to make their AA stand out above other cruisers.

 

** Priority Sector has shorter cool-down & unlimited charges than Def AA

[deathsadow]

18 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Some already can (T6+ USN CLs), but I always thought it was a strange there's two separate AA actions (Def AA & Priority Sector).

Why not merge the effects of Def AA into Priority Sector?

OK, it would be a buff to many cruisers**, but it's not like AA is overpowered or even adequate.

Maybe buff AA on USN CLs to make their AA stand out above other cruisers.

 

** Priority Sector has shorter cool-down & unlimited charges than Def AA

Yeah it sounds like a good idea, maybe adding back the old def AAs pattern distrupt from the RTS time should be also added, than ships should have a real counter to CV strikes by making the drop less precise and easier to "Just dodge"

 

DDs and BBs eat too much into the cruisers role, maybe if they would hardcounter CVs with a proper AA tool, and sporting hydro to counter the subs they would again have a distinct role and not just that jack of all trades master of none aspect. And sure some of the older lines would need a bit more help than some buff to their AA capability and a hydro same time.

 

The following ones could use some help:

Zao: Maybe some HP buff to reach 50k, and a short burst smoke would make it relevant again while keeping it true to its original playstyle

Hindenburg: Probably could use a beefed up heal, not UK cruiser level, but maybe something like the Thunderer or Gascogne heal, this would also keep the Hinden it its style. Let you play range early and it could repair up after a closer encounter.

Henry IV: I dont get why WG hit it so bad with the mobility nerf ... that was pure dumb move taking away the core of its gameplay

Wooster: On this one im clueless, stealth radar was OP on it vs DD, but without it its just a less good Des Moines ... maybe moving it and the whole line closer to the Salem/ Boise kind of playstyle would do some good to it.

[deathsadow]

46 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

Try 3 subs per team and 2 CV's. It was one of the most frustrating games I've ever had. And this was mid tier. I'm an experienced veteran with skill behind me. I can't imagine how bad it was for newer players etc. 

 

:P I dont think they suffer too long from that, many bleeds out on the T4 CVs already, and probably quite a few will give up on WoWs at that point. The game is pretty horrible up till like T7 or even higher if you pick the wrong line :/ not the thing wihich will keep newbies interested. Like who want to suffer 100-200 rounds to get the 1st decent ship and MM ... and remember the newbies cant flag up and earn 10-20k exp a round when they farm.

[deathsadow]

1 hour ago, JohnMac79 said:

How WG think we are :P

[Aethervoxx]

There's always T1 - T3. No CV or Sub infections there (yet) .... 

[Bland_42]

1 ora fa, Aethervoxx ha scritto:

There's always T1 - T3. No CV or Sub infections there (yet) .... 

 

Until we will have this...

 

Spoiler

 

 

From Wikipedia, nothing actually related to WG.

 

Propulsion linked to Adrenaline Rush, so when low on HP he will run up to 40 knots.

Special gimmick, ramming, Hotel Yankee flag permanently integrated.

[CV_SUB_Report_Blacklist]

1 cv already a night mare ...

 

 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Last night I took out Guden Leuwe after a verryy long time. I got double sub game.

 

Then I remembered why.

[ghostbuster_]

1 hour ago, RenamedUser_92906789 said:

Last night I took out Guden Leuwe after a verryy long time. I got double sub game.

 

Then I remembered why.

"Dutch cruisers are going to suffer a bit more" one of the brilliant WG employees. 

Was it just a bit more? I mean, how much fun did you have?

[MixuS]

I've seen quite often that if game has both CVs and subs, then the subs are never seen most of the match until they pop up near the CVs. Sure I don't mind if CVs finally had a counter but that just makes the game miserable when you suddenly have to come back to spawn to defend your CV unless you want to continue fighting without the strongest asset of your team.

[Lootboxer]

This game became such a clusterthat I did something I never thought I'd like to do. I played ranked and actually enjoyed it much more then current randoms.

[Nibenay78]

14 hours ago, Bear__Necessities said:

Try 3 subs per team and 2 CV's. It was one of the most frustrating games I've ever had. And this was mid tier. I'm an experienced veteran with skill behind me. I can't imagine how bad it was for newer players etc. 

 

Once had 3 CVs and 3 surface ships on each team in low tier an early morning.

 

First cruiser never left his side of the map. He was an ok doing newbie and iirc, he didn't want to play anymore.

[Figment]

So the units with ranged ASW decided to not support their team, the team split up way too far and wide, making the cruiser(s) sit in an overwhelmed position and making themselves an eventual easy one by one kill and then of course subs and CV got the blame for the poor choices BB players make that make life hard closer to the middle.

 

Right.

 

Sorry, but shouldn’t this topic be more about the BB design and it being both stimulated and too easy for them to stay at range through the scouting system, ruining your game?

[Lootboxer]

10 minutes ago, Figment said:

So the units with ranged ASW decided to not support their team, the team split up way too far and wide, making the cruiser(s) sit in an overwhelmed position and making themselves an eventual easy one by one kill and then of course subs and CV got the blame for the poor choices BB players make that make life hard closer to the middle.

 

Right.

 

Sorry, but shouldn’t this topic be more about the BB design and it being both stimulated and too easy for them to stay at range through the scouting system, ruining your game?

To use ASW first one needs to see subs or all you can do is to drop it blind hoping for the best. Good luck in yoloing into the open to try to spot and damage (because killing takes way too long) little buggers with DD or cruiser. This whole design and implementation of so called counterplay and spoting mechanics with subs and CVs has become a one huge mess. Something that worked with 3 main surface classs in a 2D plane doesn't work with 2 extra untouchable mostly classes emerging and cr@ping on poor surface players from 3D above and below.

[Figment]

1 minute ago, Lootboxer said:

To use ASW first one needs to see subs or all you can do is to drop it blind hoping for the best. Good luck in yoloing into the open to try to spot and damage (because killing takes way too long) little buggers with DD or cruiser. This whole design and implementation of so called counterplay and spoting mechanics with subs and CVs has become a one huge mess. Something that worked with 3 main surface classs in a 2D plane doesn't work with 2 extra untouchable mostly classes emerging and cr@ping on poor surface players from 3D above and below.

Especially when BB competence is a huge issue… Those subs being given space is a bigger issue than pressuring as a team and spamming ASW with a couple of BBs on suspected locations.

 

People in large part can’t handle subs because they don’t even try due to not knowing how. Their instinct for self preservation makes them do the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

1 minute ago, Figment said:

Especially when Player competence is a huge issue…

FTFY.

[deathsadow]

5 hours ago, Figment said:

So the units with ranged ASW decided to not support their team, the team split up way too far and wide, making the cruiser(s) sit in an overwhelmed position and making themselves an eventual easy one by one kill and then of course subs and CV got the blame for the poor choices BB players make that make life hard closer to the middle.

 

Right.

 

Sorry, but shouldn’t this topic be more about the BB design and it being both stimulated and too easy for them to stay at range through the scouting system, ruining your game?

Not really, when subs and CVs are not around and DDs are on a reasonable number maybe 2-3 BB out of the 5 will actually move up ... once subs show up none of the BBs go up.

[deathsadow]

5 hours ago, Figment said:

Especially when BB competence is a huge issue… Those subs being given space is a bigger issue than pressuring as a team and spamming ASW with a couple of BBs on suspected locations.

 

People in large part can’t handle subs because they don’t even try due to not knowing how. Their instinct for self preservation makes them do the exact opposite of what they should be doing.

 

The thing is when you have 0 vision on half or more of the enemy team it just doesnt seem reasonable to try to close up whith all the enemy surface ships focusing you out, there is just too many hidden ship which you are hopeless to spot as they have way samller detection and more speed than you it is quite impossible to spot them, its like going out on a minefield.

 

DD players will hate me for this, but we need more hydro and radar cruisers in the game, as without vision literally noone will move up just to get torped or burned down from a smoke or from behind an island.

[Spellfire40]

3 hours ago, deathsadow said:

 

The thing is when you have 0 vision on half or more of the enemy team it just doesnt seem reasonable to try to close up whith all the enemy surface ships focusing you out, there is just too many hidden ship which you are hopeless to spot as they have way samller detection and more speed than you it is quite impossible to spot them, its like going out on a minefield.

 

DD players will hate me for this, but we need more hydro and radar cruisers in the game, as without vision literally noone will move up just to get torped or burned down from a smoke or from behind an island.

i thoght there was a CV? there is your vision not like subs cant spot subs either. if they lurk all the time underwater they are not that much of a threat when it counts anyhow since they wasted their endurance and unless T10 they also slow as a snail.

[ghostbuster_]

14 hours ago, deathsadow said:

.DD players will hate me for this, but we need more hydro and radar cruisers in the game, as without vision literally noone will move up just to get torped or burned down from a smoke or from behind an island.

Radars and hydros which are capable to detect a submerged sub? Yes. Definitely.

Just normal radas and hydros? No. He have already enough.

[deathsadow]

14 hours ago, Spellfire40 said:

i thoght there was a CV? there is your vision not like subs cant spot subs either. if they lurk all the time underwater they are not that much of a threat when it counts anyhow since they wasted their endurance and unless T10 they also slow as a snail.

Im not sure on the lower tiers, but T10s seem to be totally fine lurking underwater form most of the game, staying totally undetected.

2 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Radars and hydros which are capable to detect a submerged sub? Yes. Definitely.

Just normal radas and hydros? No. He have already enough.

Yeah we defo need more counter to the subs stealth.

But with USN Cruisers falling out of the meta i often feel that another CA/CL line with radar would come handy, an hopefully not another russian one :P.

[Spellfire40]

4 hours ago, deathsadow said:

Im not sure on the lower tiers, but T10s seem to be totally fine lurking underwater form most of the game, staying totally undetected.

Yeah we defo need more counter to the subs stealth.

But with USN Cruisers falling out of the meta i often feel that another CA/CL line with radar would come handy, an hopefully not another russian one :P.

T6 and 8 at least on the germans are like 25 to 28kn at surface and 15 kn underwater T10 is a bit faster submerged(compared to surfaced) but it takes away endurance and turns more like a BB agiilitywise wich limits you with the not that wise atack arc and you normally dont want ro close at 30 kn to sonar equiped ships. germans are pretty stealthy and can play your DD picket line unless you run into anything yugumo/kagaro level you at least spot them seks before they spot you often cause them to veer of.

 

In a game described only subs and a CV per side subs can easyly play the DD role with more disengagement chance but limited caping thanks that a cv can easyly force a reset since you dont have smoke. The diference is agist caping DDs you need line of sight agist subs BBs can sit behind islands near a cap and saturate a spoted sub  by aiming at the proximity of its last position without any fear of retuen fire. plus subs work as spoter agist subs and sub vs sub combat is a nightmare in itself since its VERY unrelyable when it comes to homing.