How the.....

[BowTieMcBoat]

How can an Akizuki at 8-ish km range sink a near full HP Zieten without hitting him with torps?

let me tell you;

phase 1: RNG decides to let you miss most shots even though your aim is on target. (you being the Zieten player)

Phase 2: It decides to give the destroyer player a very solid boost in fire chance for the target he hits, and I mean a really, really solid boost....

Phase 3: It also decides to make the secondary guns of the Zieten utter useless by letting them hit roughly 8 times.

Phase 4: the Zieten player gets sunk from near full HP by an Akizuki sitting broadside for minutes without said Zieten being allowed to hit the Akizuki more then 4 times with 1K damage per hit.

Phase 4b: Akizuki survives with 2K HP remaining (teammates of Zieten were shooting at it too near the end)

 

Phase 5: One frustrated player gained.

 

this kind of utter horse manure should not be able to happen in this game. what an F- in joke that 'battle' was. I like the game, but it's stuff like this that really makes me doubt what kind of dumb stuff has been build in it... 

[coldocean]

Vor 6 Minuten, BowTieMcBoat sagte:

How can an Akizuki at 8-ish km range sink a near full HP Zieten without hitting him with torps?

let me tell you;

phase 1: RNG decides to let you miss most shots even though your aim is on target. (you being the Zieten player)

Phase 2: It decides to give the destroyer player a very solid boost in fire chance for the target he hits, and I mean a really, really solid boost....

Phase 3: It also decides to make the secondary guns of the Zieten utter useless by letting them hit roughly 8 times.

Phase 4: the Zieten player gets sunk from near full HP by an Akizuki sitting broadside for minutes without said Zieten being allowed to hit the Akizuki more then 4 times with 1K damage per hit.

Phase 4b: Akizuki survives with 2K HP remaining (teammates of Zieten were shooting at it too near the end)

 

Phase 5: One frustrated player gained.

 

this kind of utter horse manure should not be able to happen in this game. what an F- in joke that 'battle' was. I like the game, but it's stuff like this that really makes me doubt what kind of dumb stuff has been build in it... 

 

Replay would be cool, but I understand it would be frustrating, to invest even more time into this. :)

[ColonelPete]

Have you checked the result screens to see what the Akizuki really did to the Zieten?

 

If she really was the only one and you were shooting her the whole time at 8km, either you were EXTREMLY unlucky or you did something wrong.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

Nerf Akizuki immediately.

[Yedwy]

Prob because Zieten is trash covered in tin foil

[SkipperCH]

A replay would be rather helpful, yes. Since an Akizuki, which is not using smoke, should not survive an 8km brawl against a german CB.

[Sunleader]

29 minutes ago, BowTieMcBoat said:

How can an Akizuki at 8-ish km range sink a near full HP Zieten without hitting him with torps?

let me tell you;

phase 1: RNG decides to let you miss most shots even though your aim is on target. (you being the Zieten player)

Phase 2: It decides to give the destroyer player a very solid boost in fire chance for the target he hits, and I mean a really, really solid boost....

Phase 3: It also decides to make the secondary guns of the Zieten utter useless by letting them hit roughly 8 times.

Phase 4: the Zieten player gets sunk from near full HP by an Akizuki sitting broadside for minutes without said Zieten being allowed to hit the Akizuki more then 4 times with 1K damage per hit.

Phase 4b: Akizuki survives with 2K HP remaining (teammates of Zieten were shooting at it too near the end)

 

Phase 5: One frustrated player gained.

 

this kind of utter horse manure should not be able to happen in this game. what an F- in joke that 'battle' was. I like the game, but it's stuff like this that really makes me doubt what kind of dumb stuff has been build in it... 

 

If you give us more Info on your Captain Skills, Ship Upgrades etc.

As well as maybe giving us the Result Screens or Replay.

 

We might be able to tell you what happened and how to prevent it next time.

 

 

Akizuki is a Gun DD. that can do over 60k Damage in 1 Minute if he can Penetrate you.

And Zieten is a Battlecruiser which has fairly low Armor.

So a Zieten in Close Range where he can more or less Accurately Shoot you into the less armored Parts (of which there is many for Zieten) he can easily Kill you in 1 Minute if he gets some Fires. 

Likewise if you dont have the upgrades and skills to actually make the Secondaries useful. They are not really doing much.

 

 

 

[EgyptOverseer]

Incoming response from WG:

 

"We note your frustration, and to address this balancing issue we will buff submarine dispersion and reduce AA effectiveness of surface ships. This should greatly improve the game experience for all human targets, I mean, surface ship players."

 

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

(of which there is many for Zieten)

Only places Akizuki can penetrate Zieten is rather small bow, stern and superstructure. Deck if you count IFHE in Aki part. Entire central section is coated in 170mm, which is well enough to stop AP even at distances charitably described as "yolo", let alone supposed 8km.

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Only places Akizuki can penetrate Zieten is rather small bow, stern and superstructure. Deck if you count IFHE in Aki part. Entire central section is coated in 170mm, which is well enough to stop AP even at distances charitably described as "yolo", let alone supposed 8km.

 

Small Stern Part.

Large Bow Part.

Giant Superstructure Part.

At 8km if he got IFHE he can even Pen the Deck.

 

According to the OP the Akizuki had several Minutes.

So it should be fairly Easy for him to Kill the Zieten.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Small Stern Part.

Large Bow Part.

Giant Superstructure Part.

At 8km if he got IFHE he can even Pen the Deck.

 

According to the OP the Akizuki had several Minutes.

So it should be fairly Easy for him to Kill the Zieten.

 

Apparently I'm still the only one here who thinks that a single DD should not be able to outgun a BB...

[SkipperCH]

Depends on the situation at hand. In an open 1v1 brawl it should not survive (if the BB knows what he is doing). But the DD usually has some aces up its sleeve (torpedos, smoke, camo rating). But until we see a replay for the situation at hand it's hard to tell what really happened. From my personal experience - If an Akizuki gets into 8km to a Zieten and wants to sink it via artillery he will get blown out of the water by Zietens main armament and her secondaries, way before Akizuki can sink Zieten. 

[Humorpalanta]

1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Apparently I'm still the only one here who thinks that a single DD should not be able to outgun a BB...

Then no hydro in the game.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Apparently I'm still the only one here who thinks that a single DD should not be able to outgun a BB...

 

It doesnt.

Zieten vastly Outguns Akizuki.

Honestly said. At 8km the Zieten Secondarys can handle Akizuki alone.

But that only works if you know what you are doing and actually skilled right etc.

 

A Veteran with a Pistol will easily handle an untrained Teenager with an MG.

 

 

[Charles__Vane__]

simple, Akizuki is a great -and very fun) gun boat, while Zieten is probably the worst T8 BB tech tree.

 

Only 6 shells per shot, provided you show a lot of broadside + a dispersion absolutely utterly uber awful.

If you angled in the Zieten, only the front turret will fire 2 shells with such a dispersion that you will miss a small moving target like an Akizuki.

Zieten is by far the worst T8BB to me in the game currently.

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Apparently I'm still the only one here who thinks that a single DD should not be able to outgun a BB...

Welcome to Wargaming.

 

Also if you want to stack all the benefits on battleships, what else you'd leave for other classes? Or how you'd balance BBs holding all the cards?

[Charles__Vane__]

Il y a 13 minutes, Panocek a dit :

Also if you want to stack all the benefits on battleships, what else you'd leave for other classes? Or how you'd balance BBs holding all the cards?

Especially that, if we consider History and "what should be able or not able to do", BB are dinosaurs, they are all gone.

 

CVs, Subs and destroyers are mainly all there is left, other ships are too large and easy targets.

So, Wows is a game and it's not historycally correct...it's not a problem. 

 

And that's without talking about the DD gunboat, how the hell could they store 1000 shells in their hull and how could they fire so fast?

Wows is an unrealistic and unbalanced game, simple. A game...nothing more.

[black_falcon120]

12 hours ago, SkipperCH said:

A replay would be rather helpful, yes. Since an Akizuki, which is not using smoke, should not survive an 8km brawl against a german CB.

Are you sure you should be encouraging players to share replays while the flaw is unpatched?

[SkipperCH]

I know what you mean and I can understand anyone being cautious. But a replay still is the most valid option for something linke this. And as far as I know WG is working on solving the problem.

[black_falcon120]

1 minute ago, SkipperCH said:

I know what you mean and I can understand anyone being cautious. But a replay still is the most valid option for something linke this. And as far as I know WG is working on solving the problem.

Ok, but i still think not taking it seriously is not a good idea, WG itself is recomending not sharing replays.

 

Btw, Sera has said on discord that the fix is already live on the PTR and should be live next patch.

[The_Chiv]

12 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Prob because Zieten is trash covered in tin foil

been saying that for a while only to get people trying to defend it.

[SkipperCH]

Yes, it is being tested. But I personally don't see anything being used on a PTS as a release candidate. But, like I said - I understand anyone having trust issues towards replays atm. 

[Panocek]

17 minutes ago, Charles__Vane__ said:

And that's without talking about the DD gunboat, how the hell could they store 1000 shells in their hull and how could they fire so fast?

Typical DD shell load was 200-400. PER gun. And with Akizuki case, she had 1600 rounds in storage, "only" given her rate of fire. Akizuki reload was also in 3s territory, benefits of mechanized loading and thought out ammo hoists and layout.

 

Besides, if you're miffed at idea of still manually loaded gun, manually as in, pass projectile+propellant from ammo hoist into the tray and shove it with rammer into the breech reaching 3s, you may or may not want to bump into Forrest Sherman or any DD rocking Bofors M1950 120mm gun, as these had fully automated loading capable of dishing out 40-45 rounds per minute per barrel. Sherman does that straight from the box, Frieslands/Hallands need major investment into reload to achieve their historical reload speed.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

2 hours ago, Humorpalanta said:

Then no hydro in the game.

 

Hmm... well, no, not for the pre-WW1 era ships, arguably not for ships of that era either, but gradually being introduced along with active sonar for the post WW1 era. If you go by historical accuracy, and as there seem to be subs in the game, I definitely think they should go with the historical accuracy here.

 

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

It doesnt.

Zieten vastly Outguns Akizuki.

Honestly said. At 8km the Zieten Secondarys can handle Akizuki alone.

But that only works if you know what you are doing and actually skilled right etc.

 

A Veteran with a Pistol will easily handle an untrained Teenager with an MG.

 

 

 

Well.. how much of knowing what you are doing applies to the secondaries? What you can do is either not have a secondary build, either go for manual secondaries or not, and what else can you do? Broadside the DD to get a maximun number of your secondaries to bear on it?

 

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

Welcome to Wargaming.

 

Also if you want to stack all the benefits on battleships, what else you'd leave for other classes? Or how you'd balance BBs holding all the cards?

 

Well.. I said a 'single DD' vs a BB, not counting the damage that torps can do, I'm talking about how things should be in terms of gunnery. If you had a DD division attacking an undefended BB, then it's a whole different ball game. BB's should be balanced in terms of numbers, but the average MM is ridiculously skewed in favor of the bigger ships at the cost of the light elements (DD/CA's), and at the cost of dynamic gameplay as well.

 

What WG should do is balance the ships as per firepower and then balance the games as per the number of combatants for each ship class. I'm open to having the missing numbers of DDs/CA's bolstered by bot ships if necessary, because I have a sneaky suspicion that if you make the BB's more powerful in relative terms a lot of people would opt for them....

 

The main problems that come from poor balancing are stale matches without dynamic engagements and I can tell you that there is a huge difference if the battle is campy or dynamic (and you probably know that yourself as well). Additionally, every ship class should offer a unique play style in terms of how they engage the enemy ships, what tactics they use and how they interact with the other elements. Combat roles, as I keep saying. You can't have dynamic tactics without enforcing combat roles in the game and balancing the stats around them.

[Charles__Vane__]

Il y a 2 minutes, Karasu_Hidesuke a dit :

What WG should do

We see a lot of very good advices on this forum or even from some CC, but clearly WG never listens. Never, ever.

 

On the contrary, they often go with their primary idea (CV, subs, Deadeye, HE spammers, homing torps, OP ships in premium shop...) and only when they made significant money over their idea, they nerf it or introduce a new concept (CV->subs).

Most of their concept push BB players to camp in the back (Deadeye, HE machine guns, homing torps & subs) where as they should focus on "How to force BB and CA to engage and get closer".

 

Honestly I play the game because overall I like it and in some cases, I have fun.

In many cases, I don't have fun (camping BB, subs, CV harassement...) but I consider it's the price to pay to have sometime a good game with fun.

 

When the conditions are good in this game (no subs, balanced teams, no camping, no CV ignoring spotting and farming BB like a noob) you can have fun like few other games can give you. If only WG would listen to its community....