Bug or am i missing something? Not getting the full detectability reduction on Kleber!

[TheNubination]

Detectability of Kleber in her natural environment is 9.88 according to the Wiki.

 

I have bought the research bureau upgrade, the normal concealment upgrade, I have the commander skill and I have camo.

Adding these together from the initial 9.88 by multiplying it 0.57 should yield  5.6 detection range.
Instead Im getting 6.2

It seems that unike every other bonus you get in the game such as free experience or commander skill, concealment is not counted from the based. Instead it is incrimented starting with the highest value of decrease down to the lowest. 9.88 x 0.8 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.97.


This isn´t explained anywhere? Is t a bug or a feature?  

[ollonborre]

Feature. It has always been this way and I can't remember how it was figured out but 6.2 detection is the correct value with how it is calculated.

[ColonelPete]

It is  a multiplikation. It does not matter what is multiplicated first.

And 0.8×0.9×0.9×0.97×9.88 is 6.21

 

Do NOT add the modifiers together! (0.2+0.1+0.1+0.03)×1×9,88=5.63 is wrong!

[TheNubination]

That really doesn´t feel fair/well designed as every other upgrade then benefits progressively (1.2x rate of faire, 1.16x rate of faire etc) except for detectability that is a negative :( 


Kinda sucks, was looking forward to my Kleber plays with 5.6. 

6.2 isnt even much, Gearing gets the same without the 80% reduction in fire rate.

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

That really doesn´t feel fair/well designed as every other upgrade then benefits progressively (1.2x rate of faire, 1.16x rate of faire etc) except for detectability that is a negative :( 


Kinda sucks, was looking forward to my Kleber plays with 5.6. 

6.2 isnt even much, Gearing gets the same without the 80% reduction in fire rate.

Since ALL concealment is calculated that way, it is fair.

[TheNubination]

6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Since ALL concealment is calculated that way, it is fair.

Well it seems more to be an effect of how equipment upgrades are calculated rather than anything else. And as only two ships, maybe 3 have additional concealment upgrades it really isn´t fair. Every other ship/upgrade benefits additionally over what would be an increase based upon, well the base, the way rewards work.  I suspect its just a coincidence. 

Its interesting that they made the conscious decision to base rewards on the base gain. So they wouldn´t get incrementally stacked I guess with bonuses.

[ColonelPete]

6 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

 I suspect its just a coincidence. 

It is just how math works. It is a multiplication...

ALL concealment is calculated that way. ALL fire rate improvements are calculated that way.

[TheNubination]

7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is just how math works. It is a multiplication...

ALL concealment is calculated that way. ALL fire rate improvements are calculated that way.

I realize that now, but again, it doesn´t seem fair nor does it make sense.  If the idea is to limit stacking bonuses then a better way to do it is to add penalties for each stack. Because again, apparently stacking rate of fire or dispersion reduction nor anything else is actually beneficial. But stacking concealment is not. Ive played for a little over a year and I had no idea. Had I not done this Kleber thing I wouldn´t have known about either aspect.  Its not explained anywhere and its counterintuitive. But I guess  got my answer. 

[ColonelPete]

Just now, TheNubination said:

I realize that now, but again, it doesn´t seem fair nor does it make sense.  If the idea is to limit stacking bonuses then a better way to do it is to add penalties for each stack. Because again, apparently stacking rate of fire or dispersion reduction nor anything else is actually beneficial. But stacking concealment is not. Ive played for a little over a year and I had no idea. Had I not done this Kleber thing I wouldn´t have known about either aspect.  Its not explained anywhere and its counterintuitive. But I guess  got my answer. 

If stacking concealment is not beneficial, why are people taking Concealment Expert then? And no, the bonus is not limited, it is applied fully, the same way Concealment Expert and the Concealment Upgrade is applied.

 

ALL concealment is calculated that way. If everyone is treated equally, that is what is commonly known as fair. The concealment is calculated that way for years. I have no idea why this does not make sense to you, you are playing this way since 2020, obviously with no problem with concealment.

[TheNubination]

Do you have reading comprehension issues? Where did I say its not beneficial? 

It´s not fair in comparison with other upgrades and makes no game logic sense. Lets agree to disagree.

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

Do you have reading comprehension issues? Where did I say its not beneficial? 

It´s not fair in comparison with other upgrades and makes no game logic sense. Lets agree to disagree.

 

14 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

Because again, apparently stacking rate of fire or dispersion reduction nor anything else is actually beneficial.

I explained to you what fair is. And other effects in game are also multiplicated.

 

 

[Panocek]

13 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

Do you have reading comprehension issues? Where did I say its not beneficial? 

It´s not fair in comparison with other upgrades and makes no game logic sense. Lets agree to disagree.

Stacking damage over time reductions also have diminishing returns. Like it or not, but thats how math works with multiplication.

[TheNubination]

6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Stacking damage over time reductions also have diminishing returns. Like it or not, but thats how math works with multiplication.

Jesus christ, no its not. Its how you choose to structure your code.
And again, its evident with how their reward stacks work. Thats also "math" and "multiplicaton(!!!)" but it mutliplies only the base value, which is how these things tend to work. But not always, still should be made more clear. It has [edited]nothing to do with math or no math. lol

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

Thats also "math" and "multiplicaton(!!!)" but it mutliplies only the base value, which is how these things tend to work. But not always, still should be made more clear. It has [edited]nothing to do with math or no math. lol

You are aware that all multiplication is a multiplication of the base value? What you want is addition and subtraction, that is not multiplication.

[TheNubination]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You are aware that all multiplication is a multiplication of the base value? What you want is addition and subtraction, that is not multiplication.

Are you daft or do you just have an interest in arguing on forums as a substitute for an actual life?
I gave an example, in game, known to both of us of how rewards in regards to XP, Free XP, and CXP work and stacking those (using flags, signals, event bonuses etc).

Do you really not understand my argument or what?

You dont have to agree, we can just go our different ways, but what the [edited]is this question?

[ColonelPete]

16 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

Are you daft or do you just have an interest in arguing on forums as a substitute for an actual life?

Since you are also arguing with me and obviously know yourself better than me, can we assume that this was a statement about you?

16 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

I gave an example, in game, known to both of us of how rewards in regards to XP, Free XP, and CXP work and stacking those (using flags, signals, event bonuses etc).

Do you really not understand my argument or what?

You dont have to agree, we can just go our different ways, but what the [edited]is this question?

XP Bonuses work additive and indeed differently, which is an disadvantage for the players. The calculation of the rate of fire or dispersion is multiplied.

 

And yes, I understand your argument. Stuff does not work like you want and therefore it is unfair. Understood.

[TheNubination]

Okay Jackass, Ill bite.

What is the difference between these two descriptions and if there is no difference why do you think its fair or good that I have to guess if its "my way" or "your way" of multiplication that is applied when using either and be content when I get screwed over for my first 19 200 research points because I guessed wrong or just assumed that one works as the other.

You can replace the speed flag with any other flag or module or commander skill if I understand you correctly. 

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

Okay Jackass, Ill bite.

What is the difference between these two descriptions and if there is no difference why do you think its fair or good that I have to guess if its "my way" or "your way" of multiplication that is applied when using either and be content when I get screwed over for my first 19 200 research points because I guessed wrong or just assumed that one works as the other.

You can replace the speed flag with any other flag or module or commander skill if I understand you correctly. 

As I told you, XP Bonuses are additive, which is a disadvantage for the players.

And you know how stuff works by looking at the results in game. There is a table for XP at the end of every battle. When you apply speed flag, you see the speed change in port. When you apply concealment modifiers, the results are shown in the game, which you play since 2020. Have you never used concealment before?

[TheNubination]

I see a + value there in both descriptions. 

[tocqueville8]

1 hour ago, TheNubination said:

That really doesn´t feel fair/well designed as every other upgrade then benefits progressively

5 hours ago, TheNubination said:

It seems that unike every other bonus you get in the game such as free experience or commander skill, concealment is not counted from the based. Instead it is incrimented starting with the highest value of decrease down to the lowest

 

Combat perks in this game are multiplicative, and the order of factors doesn't alter the product. It may not be specified in port, but you just have to read the wiki or other resources. Examples:

 

Fire duration on BBs, with all perks: 60 seconds (stock) * 85% (DmgCon mod 2) * 85% (BoS) * 80% (flag) = 34.7 seconds

It's not 60s * (100% - 15% - 15% - 20%) = 30s, even though you might think that way.

 

Reload, e.g. on the Regolo: 5.5s (stock) * 88% (Main Battery Mod 3) * 90% (Fearless Brawler) = 4.36s

It's not 5.5s * (100% - 12% -10%) = 4.29s

 

Smoke duration, e.g. on the Vampire II: 90s (stock) * 110% (cpt skill) * 115% (flag) * 130% (coal module) = 148s
It's not 90s * (100% + 10% + 15% + 30%) = 139.5s

 

So your point just falls apart, I'm afraid.

 

When in doubt, especially before an expensive purchase, ask around or use a website like wowsft.com to check what the build would do to your ship.

 

24 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

I get screwed over for my first 20 000 research points

 

That's the wrong attitude to bring to your first LU Kléber game. She's a good ship, but you have to trust her:

 

https://replayswows.com/replay/146514#stats

 

Cheers

[tocqueville8]

5 hours ago, Panocek said:

Like it or not, but thats how math works with multiplication.

 

To be fair, there's still a multiplication, but it is confusing because it adds second-order terms with a different sign. Let's say:

• SC = Stock Concealment
• FC = Final Concealment
• E = Concealment Expert buff = 10%
• M = Concealment Systems Mod 1 = 10%
• L = Legendary Module = 20%

 

The OP thought it would be: FC = SC * (1 - E - M - L) = SC - SC * (E + M + L) = 9.88 - 3.95

 

Instead it's: FC = SC * (1 - E) * (1 - M) * (1 - L) = SC - SC * (E + M + L) + SC * (E*M + E*L + M*L) - SC (E*M*L) = 9.88 - 3.95 + 0.49 - 0.02

 

EDIT: added the third-order term, which is of course one order of magnitude smaller

 

(this is all without camo, I was too lazy...)

[TheNubination]

17 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

 

Combat perks in this game are multiplicative, and the order of factors doesn't alter the product. It may not be specified in port, but you just have to read the wiki or other resources. Examples:

 

Fire duration on BBs, with all perks: 60 seconds (stock) * 85% (DmgCon mod 2) * 85% (BoS) * 80% (flag) = 34.7 seconds

It's not 60s * (100% - 15% - 15% - 20%) = 30s, even though you might think that way.

 

Reload, e.g. on the Regolo: 5.5s (stock) * 88% (Main Battery Mod 3) * 90% (Fearless Brawler) = 4.36s

It's not 5.5s * (100% - 12% -10%) = 4.29s

 

Smoke duration, e.g. on the Vampire II: 90s (stock) * 110% (cpt skill) * 115% (flag) * 130% (coal module) = 148s
It's not 90s * (100% + 10% + 15% + 30%) = 139.5s

 

So your point just falls apart, I'm afraid.

 

When in doubt, especially before an expensive purchase, ask around or use a website like wowsft.com to check what the build would do to your ship.

 

 

That's the wrong attitude to bring to your first LU Kléber game. She's a good ship, but you have to trust her:

 

https://replayswows.com/replay/146514#stats

 

Cheers

Its retarded but what ever, yeah Ill keep her , she see´s a fun ship regardless.

And depending on unofficial sites to give accurate info is kinda weird.  I expect information that says the same thing to work in the same way and I dont understand why Im having to argue this in the first place. 

[tocqueville8]

1 minute ago, TheNubination said:

And depending on unofficial sites to give accurate info is kinda weird. 

 

I don't depend on that: I just use it because it's got a nice user interface and I can mess around with ships I don't own, but am interested in.

 

This is from the "Detection" page on the wiki:

 

A ship's detectability range can be decreased by using certain upgrades, skills and camouflage. The bonuses from each stack together multiplicatively, so a Kagero (with base sea detectability range of 6.84 km), when fully decked out for concealment, can have a sea detectability range as low as 5.37 km.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, TheNubination said:

And depending on unofficial sites to give accurate info is kinda weird. 

You do not. You see the results of using concealment modifiiers in game. The math is kinda obvious.

[TheNubination]

7 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

You do not. You see the results of using concealment modifiiers in game. The math is kinda obvious.

I like how you ignored my statement to you and the rest of that post only to quote one thing. Get a life .