[OZYR] Andrewbassg Players 3,800 posts 25,858 battles Report post #1 Posted June 9, 2022 "I know there is a lot of hate for subs. To each their own. But please STOP teamkilling your fellows just because you don't like what they're sailing in! Last night, this happened to me. I was in the Cachalot heading for the center cap. Since it's slow as an American BB, I was overtaken by a Furutaka on starboard and Kotovski(spell?) on port. When the enemy appeared across the cap from us, the two ships started taking fire. The Furutaka made a hard turn and T-boned me, lifting the sub up. I couldn't dive. Stuck on his bow, I became a meat shield for him. I asked why and was told "edit." The guy in the Kot turned and hit my stern, keeping me stuck to the Furutaka and taking rounds for him. He said "edit." These were not enemy ships. We were on the SAME SIDE! It would have been different if I was being focus fired on by the red team. But no, they were "team" mates, supposedly fighting the same enemy. This was infuriating! Why? If you don't like subs, then b!tch and complain. But don't you want to win? I did get the last laugh though. The enemy sub sank the Kot and the Furutaka took citadel hits from a BB. I managed to survive the battle, albeit with very low health. Still, it ruined the match for me. I should have written down their in-game names and submitted a complaint, but I was so shocked or surprised at what happened, so I didn't get them. Iss juss a game. Y u heff to be med?" https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/255886-stop-teamkilling-subs/ Removed insults and corrected text color. Please remember that red coloring is only allowed for moderators and WG staff. - SkipperCH 2 25 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[-EXS-] Hades_warrior Players 5,381 posts 6,643 battles Report post #2 Posted June 9, 2022 I see treatment on subs very much the same as on WC players. So I don't see a problem. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[OZYR] Andrewbassg Players 3,800 posts 25,858 battles Report post #3 Posted June 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said: I see treatment on subs very much the same as on WC players. So I don't see a problem. Neither do I. Subs also will be declared a resounding success in 5....4... 2 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TF57] Fatal_Ramses Players 1,300 posts Report post #4 Posted June 9, 2022 Oh dear. I know I should not laugh, but I cant help it. 5 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[COOOP] Shirakami_Kon Players 2,624 posts 12,776 battles Report post #5 Posted June 9, 2022 Normally I'd say that it's unsporting behaviour and no matter how much you hate a ship someone's playing it's not ok under no circumstances to act like that. Hell, I like CVs as much as anyone else, but I still frowned such actions when in some cases I saw people teamkilling our own CV, which bad as it is may have had some impact and nonetheless there's no reason to put your team at a -1 CV disadvantadge no matter how much you hate them. But this case? Considering that the guy was playing what the community agrees is the class that legit provides absolutely nothing but toxicity and it's unfun to the level of hilariously outdo CVs? I'd say expect to see this happen more often. WG is not listening to the playerbase complaints. People will make them heard in one way or the other. Even if it resorts to more cases like this. The guy got what he deserved. Also from the gameplay perspective I gotta say that considering how ridiculously tanky submarines are, the idea of using one as your personal meatshield is glorious. Hell, the guy admited being put through all that and still surviving, imagine that. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SM0KE] Verblonde Players 9,787 posts 20,664 battles Report post #6 Posted June 9, 2022 33 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said: We were on the SAME SIDE! Our distressed submarine player appears to be labouring under a misapprehension: submarine players are not on the same side as everyone else..! On the whole, removing team damage was - arguably - a positive thing (although I still maintain it was a dumbing down) that said, I really wish I could drop depth charges on any submarines on my team. Yes, I'm a bad person. 9 11 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[-RNR-] Maris_Piper Players 2,012 posts Report post #7 Posted June 9, 2022 PMSL, And I thought I was paranoid about the godawefull things, I just ignore them when they are on my team sort of like a Fly buzzing around annoying but I can't get rid of it 4 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[I-J-N] Karasu_Browarszky [I-J-N] Players 13,025 posts Report post #8 Posted June 9, 2022 Naturally, we are all horrified and disapprove of this sort of behavior in the strongest possible terms. 1 12 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #9 Posted June 9, 2022 Tbh it’s pretty pathetic to take out frustration with game design on players. People didn’t TK bordersurfers either and those were deliberately exploiting. These people are simply playing a game as intended by the game designers. I’ve seen this kind of TK behaviour in online games before by “disgruntled” players. At first it’s aimed at pet peeves, usually by people using free trial accounts to attack players using certain equipment considered OP, in some cases it has been for racist reasons targeting Chinese or Eastern European players in particular. Eventually these people will start targeting others just to “get back at the company” and attempting to drive away customers and keep expanding the “legitimate targets” in their mind. In that sense I’m almost glad teamdamage is turned off, even if it diminished the tactical part of the game. I’m glad there are some checks in place to keep free accounts under control with some effort and that deliberately harassing players automatically become restricted. We can mostly expect the typical type of unsporting behaviour that leads to losses and loss of fun as a lot of abuse options are covered, until some hack is discovered that is. Regardless, this kind of behaviour may sound funny, but every player that quits over abuse, is another player gone. If the sub had ended up there by accident, it’d been funny. On purpose is just a toxic show of impotence. If you’re afraid players will leave over subs, those fears may be justified, but don’t drive more out. Don’t harass and polarize, You will not be able to get that extra toxicity out of the game again. It is just going to make a bad situation worse and the threshold and bar for bad behaviour in other ways and to other people is just going to get lower and lower. It invites revenge actions. That is going to impact everyone eventually. And that’s not on sub players, that is on the people cheering it on just because you feel rather powerless now. Don’t take it out on people, just hang in there and focus on reforms. Bullying others is never the answer. :/ 5 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[VICE] JohnMac79 Players 1,872 posts 18,680 battles Report post #10 Posted June 9, 2022 27 minutes ago, Figment said: Tbh it’s pretty pathetic to take out frustration with game design on players. I disagree. 27 minutes ago, Figment said: These people are simply playing a game as intended by the game designers. And they will continue to be hated for it and insta reported. 27 minutes ago, Figment said: In that sense I’m almost glad teamdamage is turned off Which was done to prevent potato subs hurting their teammates i suspect. 27 minutes ago, Figment said: checks in place to keep free accounts under control with some effort and that deliberately harassing players automatically become restricted. This is what CV and subs do. 27 minutes ago, Figment said: We can mostly expect the typical type of unsporting behaviour Like playing CV and subs. 27 minutes ago, Figment said: Regardless, this kind of behaviour may sound funny, but every player that quits over abuse, is another player gone. Yeah, mainly due to CV and subs. 27 minutes ago, Figment said: On purpose is just a toxic show of impotence. Like CV and subs? 27 minutes ago, Figment said: Don’t take it out on people, just hang in there and focus on reforms. Reforms... Have you even seen the upcoming T10 premium sub? 27 minutes ago, Figment said: Bullying others is never the answer. :/ Agree, which is why CV and su.... ... Oh never mind. 3 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[OZYR] Andrewbassg Players 3,800 posts 25,858 battles Report post #11 Posted June 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Figment said: Tbh it’s pretty pathetic to take out frustration with game design on players. People didn’t TK bordersurfers either and those were deliberately exploiting. These people are simply playing a game as intended by the game designers. I’ve seen this kind of TK behaviour in online games before by “disgruntled” players. At first it’s aimed at pet peeves, usually by people using free trial accounts to attack players using certain equipment considered OP, in some cases it has been for racist reasons targeting Chinese or Eastern European players in particular. Eventually these people will start targeting others just to “get back at the company” and attempting to drive away customers and keep expanding the “legitimate targets” in their mind. In that sense I’m almost glad teamdamage is turned off, even if it diminished the tactical part of the game. I’m glad there are some checks in place to keep free accounts under control with some effort and that deliberately harassing players automatically become restricted. We can mostly expect the typical type of unsporting behaviour that leads to losses and loss of fun as a lot of abuse options are covered, until some hack is discovered that is. Regardless, this kind of behaviour may sound funny, but every player that quits over abuse, is another player gone. If the sub had ended up there by accident, it’d been funny. On purpose is just a toxic show of impotence. If you’re afraid players will leave over subs, those fears may be justified, but don’t drive more out. Don’t harass and polarize, You will not be able to get that extra toxicity out of the game again. It is just going to make a bad situation worse and the threshold and bar for bad behaviour in other ways and to other people is just going to get lower and lower. It invites revenge actions. That is going to impact everyone eventually. And that’s not on sub players, that is on the people cheering it on just because you feel rather powerless now. Don’t take it out on people, just hang in there and focus on reforms. You are...... mostly correct in your assessment. And also not. The removal of TK just compounded the problem nothing else. Also Wedgie is the very first entity to conveniently ignore the consequences of their owns actions and decisions so..... However, your most basic assumption is the most wrong one. You (and the OP) attributed malice to what was most likely incompetence and actually on both sides. Those are T5 cruisers so I'm 95% sure that the boxing in wasn't intentional. And also subs move in three dimensions, so it was quite avoidable by the OP. So yes:) the op is kinda funny, not at least because of the language used to describe the events :) 1 hour ago, Figment said: Bullying others is never the answer. :/ Yes. Now please inform Wedgie about that fact. Coz, as you know, they handed out a highly personalized bonus code and after that proceeded to fulfill the promise from that code. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #12 Posted June 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: I disagree. Great. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: And they will continue to be hated for it and insta reported. So what good has reporting CV players done? 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Which was done to prevent potato subs hurting their teammates i suspect. Potato 5.5km torp cruisers sailing behind their allies and firing at targets 10+km away more likely. Subs are not near allies and do not aim at allies since they are out in front of them. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: This is what CV and subs do. No. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Like playing CV and subs. No. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Yeah, mainly due to CV and subs. No. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Like CV and subs? No. People like you are a much bigger problem. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Reforms... Have you even seen the upcoming T10 premium sub? Have you ever seen abuse of players lead to WG changing tactics? Have you seen any company do so? No. 10 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Agree, which is why CV and su.... ... Oh never mind. No. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #13 Posted June 9, 2022 52 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said: You are...... mostly correct in your assessment. And also not. The removal of TK just compounded the problem nothing else. Agree to disagree. Still, I dislike the removal, as luring people into their own side’s torps or forcing enemies to not launch a defensive torpstrike due to risks to allies was a handy CQB tactic at times. People spam launch these days in the same situation. The few times a DD or cruiser would run into my torps (even if warned over and over) or would hit me by accident I could easily live with. Quote Also Wedgie is the very first entity to conveniently ignore the consequences of their owns actions and decisions so..... I don’t think they’re ignoring the discontent, they are however focusing on the wrong type of solution (balance passes) and thinking that once database balance had been achieved it’s all going to work out fine. It’s probably more a lack of vision and imagination with a big dose of ego. Quote However, your most basic assumption is the most wrong one. You attributed malice to what was most likely incompetence and actually on both sides. Those are T5 cruisers so I'm 95% sure that the boxing in wasn't intentional. And also subs move in three dimensions, so it was quite avoidable by the OP. Don’t think this was the case in this instance. The described attitude in chat does not match that of newish players. Quote Yes. Now please inform Wedgie about that fact. There’s a difference between generating unintended emotions from players who feel they lack control over a combat situation, with people going out of their way to deliberately attempt to hurt/ offend/ bully others in some way for no other reason than to revel in their misery. Problem is a lot of players apparently don’t see the difference, present company apparently included and use that inability for basic empathy to justify extending their hatred and feelings of injustice to innocent users who are just there to have fun without any malice intend in mind. Deliberately conflating that is dishonest. Accidentally conflating that is ignorant bigotry. If you want to see examples of bullying attitude, then look no further than the just-began-playing-powerful-battleships-why-don’t-DDs-die-on-the-first-shot-I-play-BBs-only-crowd. A lot of them love bullying, you frequently get one on forums to demand the ability to do so even better and nerf counter abilities from other classes. That is a bullying attitude. Most CV players are just people who like carriers or providing more of a support role and try to get their team a win. I won’t say there are no bullies among CV players, but to suggest people who play CVs or subs are per definition bullies is just wrong and unethical demonizing. An example of a CV bully would be one going out of their way to damage friendlies or overly frequent seal clubbing long past the grind to get to the next CV. Attacking enemies, including focusing on one or one with worse AA defenses, is simply part of the game. You cannot fault a CV player for doing what that player is supposed to do. Even if you disagree with the balancing or design choices. Defining a player using a tool as intended without exploiting or abuse as a bully is just asinine and dishonest. Likely projection as well as it is apparently the only thing they can imagine themselves using it for. I do not blame Petrograd and Stalingrad players for using IMO too powerful long range radar against my DD either. That’d be a really dumb and low thing to do. Unfortunately ethics are low in the general playerbase once they feel they have some great cause. Like using trying to remove a class of ships as justification. Suddenly they think they are above rules of decency and can set their own behavioural norms that other “lesser” people will just have to put up with as collateral damage of their quest. 2 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[COOOP] Shirakami_Kon Players 2,624 posts 12,776 battles Report post #14 Posted June 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Figment said: Tbh it’s pretty pathetic to take out frustration with game design on players. True, if there were other ways to do so. Or have an undestanding developer that doesn't plan to absolutely decimate a game you love. So this is what we have until they do something about it. 1 hour ago, Figment said: People didn’t TK bordersurfers either and those were deliberately exploiting. Those mainly ruined their own match tbh, not everyone else's, as borderhumping doesn't really save you in any way, so good for them I guess. 1 hour ago, Figment said: These people are simply playing a game as intended by the game designers. Doesn't mean it's good or going to be accepted by the playerbase that actually plays the game in any way. Specially since those game designers are so [edited]disconnected from the game they play it's unbeliavable. 1 hour ago, Figment said: I’ve seen this kind of TK behaviour in online games before by “disgruntled” players. At first it’s aimed at pet peeves, usually by people using free trial accounts to attack players using certain equipment considered OP, in some cases it has been for racist reasons targeting Chinese or Eastern European players in particular. Eventually these people will start targeting others just to “get back at the company” and attempting to drive away customers and keep expanding the “legitimate targets” in their mind. In that sense I’m almost glad teamdamage is turned off, even if it diminished the tactical part of the game. I’m glad there are some checks in place to keep free accounts under control with some effort and that deliberately harassing players automatically become restricted. We can mostly expect the typical type of unsporting behaviour that leads to losses and loss of fun as a lot of abuse options are covered, until some hack is discovered that is. That's a concern for WG, not us. If they even care about it, which doesn't seem the case anyway. Whatever day they want to stop this it's so easy as to do away with sonar and homing torpedos. 1 hour ago, Figment said: Regardless, this kind of behaviour may sound funny, but every player that quits over abuse, is another player gone. That doesn't even need to this to happen to a poor innocent submarine player. The mere implementation and current itineration of submarines already causes that on a much larger scale than the poor submarine players that will get abused once in a blue moon by a vocal toxic minority. 1 hour ago, Figment said: On purpose is just a toxic show of impotence. If you’re afraid players will leave over subs, those fears may be justified, but don’t drive more out. Don’t harass and polarize, You will not be able to get that extra toxicity out of the game again. It is just going to make a bad situation worse and the threshold and bar for bad behaviour in other ways and to other people is just going to get lower and lower. It invites revenge actions. That is going to impact everyone eventually. And that’s not on sub players, that is on the people cheering it on just because you feel rather powerless now. Don’t take it out on people, just hang in there and focus on reforms. And yet we wouldn't be having this conversation on a healthy and well balanced game through the efforts of a competent developer team that listens to a helping community that loves the game and immediately gives them 123 pages of feedback + 4/5 extra topics weekly about any significant issues on game balance and overall enjoyment of the game to which they listen carefully. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #15 Posted June 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, Shirakami_Kon said: [shifting blame and lacking personal responsibility for own actions] Is what I read. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[COOOP] Shirakami_Kon Players 2,624 posts 12,776 battles Report post #16 Posted June 9, 2022 Just now, Figment said: Is what I read. What own actions? Can you prove I did anything that could be considered unsporting behaviour? Is that all your argument? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[VICE] JohnMac79 Players 1,872 posts 18,680 battles Report post #17 Posted June 9, 2022 58 minutes ago, Figment said: Have you ever seen abuse of players lead to WG changing tactics? Nothing leads to WG changing tactics, they balance everything around income, and only income. The fact you think WG care about anything the playerbase says or wants shows an extreme level of naivety. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #18 Posted June 9, 2022 18 minutes ago, Shirakami_Kon said: What own actions? Can you prove I did anything that could be considered unsporting behaviour? Is that all your argument? You implied numerous times there is no other course of action for players left and devs are pushing players to do this. Neither is true, it is shifting blame for players actions to developers. I didn’t accuse you of any particular actions, I accused you of scapegoating, shifting blame, removing personal responsibility for own actions (the action of players) and basically justifying abuse by players. I don’t recall accusing you of any specific action despite you indicating you are understanding, possibly sympathetic to the sort of action and lean to the kind of justification argumentation used. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #19 Posted June 10, 2022 12 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Nothing leads to WG changing tactics, they balance everything around income, and only income. Good, so you admit that it is a pointless thing to do. We are making progress. That said, sounds like stopping to purchase and promoting is a better tactic. In fact, that is what caused WG’s u-turn on the Missouri. So don’t bully players. It doesn’t do anyone any good. 12 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: The fact you think WG care about anything the playerbase says or wants shows an extreme level of naivety. Wait, what? Where did I say this? Shouldn’t you be in bed, prepping for school to learn comprehensive reading? 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[AMOC] NewHorizons_1 [AMOC] Players 3,860 posts 46,912 battles Report post #20 Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, JohnMac79 said: Which was done to prevent potato subs hurting their teammates i suspect. The toxic troll in me suspects it was done so that surface ships couldn't TK a sub team mate. But my more rational side suspects it was to prevent a DD who is dropping depth charges being TK'd by all his team mates dropping everything and focus firing on one enemy sub. Either way it all indicates WG knew that subs were going to be ... let's say ... controversial. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #21 Posted June 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said: The toxic troll in me suspects it was done so that surface ships couldn't TK a sub team mate. But my more rational side suspects it was to prevent a DD dropping depth charges being TK'd by all his team mates dropping everything and focus firing on one enemy sub. Either way it all indicates WG knew that subs were going to be ... let's say ... controversial. There were also rumours about the Kitakami making a return around the same time. But I find it more likely that they figured protecting players from bad and malintentioned players and with a fairly simple move remove a source of frustration would increase player retention rate, while lowering the workload of GM’s responding to reports. Thus increasing or maintain profits by reducing costs and maintaining/increasing profit margins. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[COOOP] Shirakami_Kon Players 2,624 posts 12,776 battles Report post #22 Posted June 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, Figment said: You implied numerous times there is no other course of action for players left and devs are pushing players to do this. Neither is true, it is shifting blame for players actions to developers. I didn’t accuse you of any particular actions, I accused you of scapegoating, shifting blame, removing personal responsibility for own actions and basically justifying abuse by players. I'm not shifting the blame anywhere. Any competent developer team that takes any pride in being so values that they game is balanced and enjoyable for their entire playerbase, not just parts specific parts of it, where their playerbase doesn't have to resort to such conducts because there no way to prevent so, there's no way to communicate with them at all to fix it, or honestly making their playerbase feeling so frustrated about the game to begin with for these conducts to happen in the first place. And there used to be a time where even WG fitted that category, but that's a really old tale now. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[AMOC] NewHorizons_1 [AMOC] Players 3,860 posts 46,912 battles Report post #23 Posted June 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, Figment said: There were also rumours about the Kitakami making a return around the same time. Yup, I remember. 2 minutes ago, Figment said: But I find it more likely that they figured protecting players from bad and malintentioned players and with a fairly simple move remove a source of frustration would increase player retention rate, while lowering the workload of GM’s responding to reports. It's a shame they didn't take a step back and consider that forcing subs into existing modes was actually a good idea or not - they obviously had foreseen a potential backlash. But of course WG probably wanted a large volume of stats to analyse (no matter how poor quality it was **) and making subs optional wouldn't have yielded that amount. ** from giving inexperienced players access to T10 subs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Figment Beta Tester 3,801 posts 10,499 battles Report post #24 Posted June 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said: It's a shame they didn't take a step back and consider that forcing subs into existing modes was actually a good idea or not - they obviously had foreseen a potential backlash. But of course WG probably wanted a large volume of stats to analyse (no matter how poor quality it was **) and making subs optional wouldn't have yielded that amount. ** from giving inexperienced players access to T10 subs. Once some of those decisions are made it’s hard to course correct though. But I find this to be incompetence and possibly overconfidence and doubling down, rather than “malice for profit” as some people indicate. I don’t think submarines and profit are going to be highly related. Especially not as silver grind lines. The few premiums they might add probably won’t sell in huge numbers (though work on its model might be relatively low effort due to lack of kibble, so could be a relatively big margin). 24 minutes ago, Shirakami_Kon said: I'm not shifting the blame anywhere. Any competent developer team that takes any pride in being so values that they game is balanced and enjoyable for their entire playerbase, not just parts specific parts of it, …So far so good… Quote where their playerbase doesn't have to resort to such conducts And there it is. This, is blame shifting. So players are forced to? Really? No. Quote because there no way to prevent so, there's no way to communicate with them at all to fix it, or honestly making their playerbase feeling so frustrated about the game to begin with for these conducts to happen in the first place. And there used to be a time where even WG fitted that category, but that's a really old tale now. Frustration doesn’t necessarily lead to abuse from players towards other players. That is always a personal choice by those players. Being angry or frustrated with developers is no excuse to take it out on innocent bystanders. You think I’m happy with WG? Should I now go out and shoot someone? Frankly, this is the sort of argument some people use to try and justify domestic abuse. It is even the kind of reasoning used by a lot of domestic terrorists. They are the “real” victim of Big Bad X, not those they take it out on! Fact is, they are the ones who lack a sense of control, so they seek a way to feel powerful. Thus they look for victims. All actions that constitute abuse are a person’s own responsibility and choice. At no time is taking your frustration out on other players acceptable behaviour. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[VICE] JohnMac79 Players 1,872 posts 18,680 battles Report post #25 Posted June 10, 2022 You: 2 hours ago, Figment said: Don’t take it out on people, just hang in there and focus on reforms. Also you: 35 minutes ago, Figment said: 52 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said: Nothing leads to WG changing tactics, they balance everything around income, and only income. The fact you think WG care about anything the playerbase says or wants shows an extreme level of naivety. Wait, what? Where did I say this? Shouldn’t you be in bed, prepping for school to learn comprehensive reading? Yeah… foot in mouth? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
