Soviet Destroyers advices for a New Player

[ziratulbihac]

Question: Soviet Destroyers

I haven't played Destroyers at all. I've unlocked Tier V Russian Destroyer and I would like to play some games to learn the concept - do you guys have any advices? 

1. How to deal with 4 km torpedo distances
2. Is it actually possible to use higher speed to get much closer?
3. Do Russians DD's actually have a more precise guns from longer range, any use from them?

[Nibenay78]

2 hours ago, ziratulbihac said:

Question: Soviet Destroyers

I haven't played Destroyers at all. I've unlocked Tier V Russian Destroyer and I would like to play some games to learn the concept - do you guys have any advices? 

From an average DD players perspective who dont particular fancy RU DDs (but often play against them).

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1. How to deal with 4 km torpedo distances

Spray them into the smoke before you charge near to (proxy) spot the enemy DD in there.

 

Save them for ambushes or yoloing (see #3)

 

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2. Is it actually possible to use higher speed to get much closer?

Yes and while they go fast, its easy to se the intention and especially at higher tiers its easy to just turn and run while the DD gets slaugthered if yoloing a bigger ship.

 

its good for chasing down slower DDs though!

 

Edit: since its at tier 5, you can probably yolo down single and slow BBs if you have OK hp. Just keep nose on them until you are real close. Dont fire torps too soon.

 

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3. Do Russians DD's actually have a more precise guns from longer range, any use from them?

They are easier to use at longer ranges than some (many?) other DDs. Its quite tricky fighing another DD in Gearing at 10km for example compared to a RU one.

 

That said, my preference is stealthier DDs that can get to 6km and unleash intense fire at point blank, so not so used to kite around in the bigger ones.

 

How I play against them:

 

If I meet an RU DD I tend to keep it spotted with better concealment, often forcing it away from other ships, or moving all close and making short intense attacks. Some DD players dont react too fast when they are busy shooting at other targets and you can get in several free salvos and start smoking up to shoot even more.

[ziratulbihac]

But in general, are Soviet DD's competetive? 

 

 

[Dutchy_2019]

2 hours ago, ziratulbihac said:

Question: Soviet Destroyers

I haven't played Destroyers at all. I've unlocked Tier V Russian Destroyer and I would like to play some games to learn the concept - do you guys have any advices? 

1. How to deal with 4 km torpedo distances
2. Is it actually possible to use higher speed to get much closer?
3. Do Russians DD's actually have a more precise guns from longer range, any use from them?

 

From the POV from an average player (50% WR, DDs slightly higher), who liked playing the Russian gun line:

 

For your specific points:

 

1. You do not deal with them, They are ambush and YOLO torpedos. Spraying them into smoke is EXTREMELY dangerous, as generally your concealment is bad - easy to get spotted and killed. 

 

2. Yes, you can use your speed, but generally, you do stay at range to use your guns. Again - your concealment is relatively bad (most of the time). The problem is usually NOT getting closer, the problem is getting away in a Russian DD. Charging in is NOT advised (in just about any DD) as a general rule.

 

3. Most Russian DDs are longer range spammers. You dart in and out, and just annoy the **** out of the enemy team. Your guns are generally good enough to win or stand a decent chance against any enemy DD. Your concealment, however, is such that just about any DD will outspot you by a decent margin, which means his support can shoot at you. Put it this way, for the main DD-line, many players argue that CE for your captain is actually a wasted skill.

 

To put it this way:

 

Concealment Podvoisky (base) 7.7 km, can be reduced to 7 km with a 10 pt captain and CE ; you will go up against DDs that will have between 5.5 and 6.6 km concealment most of the time. That difference is MASSIVE.

 

 

 

GENERAL

 

Just my advice, something I partially followed, and found out to be true (and wish I would have done the first time around).

 

If you have NEVER played DD, go play DDs at lower tiers first (T2 - 4), just to get a feel for their style of play. It will be more fun for you (in the longer run), and you will be of far more use to the team when you end up at T5. 

I think most experienced and good players would argue that the Russian DD line is NOT a beginner line - Japanese, UK (quick Get Out Of Jail smokes), US DDs are much more forgiving. Arguably - as a general rule - Soviet DDs are amongst the most difficult to play (together with the Italians and Germans).

[Dutchy_2019]

13 minutes ago, ziratulbihac said:

But in general, are Soviet DD's competetive? 

 

 

In the hands of a decent to good and experienced player? Yes.

 

In the hands of someone who has never played DD? Most often not, usually being more of a liability than an asset to the team.

[ollonborre]

11 minutes ago, ziratulbihac said:

But in general, are Soviet DD's competetive? 

In general, no. For Ranked most of them work if you can make them work, but the gunboat line is often outspotted or outperformed by the French line. The jack of all trades line is also outperformed by more specialist DD's. In Clan Wars none of them see any real play, only ship you might see is the Grozovoi. But the only reason to pick a Grozovoi is if there is a CV season and you don't own a Halland or Gearing.

[ziratulbihac]

Just now, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

In the hands of a decent to good and experienced player? Yes.

 

In the hands of someone who has never played DD? Most often not, usually being more of a liability than an asset to the team.

Alright, thank you for your input, I might try other lines first :)

[Nibenay78]

40 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

1. You do not deal with them, They are ambush and YOLO torpedos. Spraying them into smoke is EXTREMELY dangerous, as generally your concealment is bad - easy to get spotted and killed. 

@ziratulbihac this is about choosing your battles.

 

1) If a lone DD is smoked up and your team is behind you. Go for it. Focus on keeping him spotted and keeping yourself alive.

 

2) 1 vs 1 against a poor gunboat or more damaged than you, go for it. It depends how confident you are. Just dont go straight in, try to pick a side and be ready to turn in or away from torps. If you can stay on his front or arse, torps are not an issue and fewer guns hit you back. Getting off 2-3 salvos first also knocks off a lot of guns/torps and engine before they even fire back. Already having torps in the water makes them more stressed and leaves you to focus only on gunning. Many waste time firing torps when they should use guns only.

 

 

3) if you are  more damaged/its a good gunboat or enemy team is near, leave it alone. You'll probably die.

 

Edit: all 3 requires you can get close unspotted of course.

 

38 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

In the hands of someone who has never played DD? Most often not, usually being more of a liability than an asset to the team.

I agree, people who dont know how to play DDs will probably be pushed back to ranges they are ineffective due to spot ranges.

 

37 minutes ago, ziratulbihac said:

Alright, thank you for your input, I might try other lines first :)

UK DDs are good. Many and short smokes mean if you fark up one, its not a huge waste. The short duration learns you to be more active. Hydro is neat to dodge torps and getting first shot vs smoked DDs.

 

Eventually learning when to use AP is nice too, but if you stress with close up fights, just use HE.

[ziratulbihac]

11 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

@ziratulbihac this is about choosing your battles.

 

1) If a lone DD is smoked up and your team is behind you. Go for it. Focus on keeping him spotted and keeping yourself alive.

 

2) 1 vs 1 against a poor gunboat or more damaged than you, go for it. It depends how confident you are. Just dont go straight in, try to pick a side and be ready to turn in or away from torps. If you can stay on his front or arse, torps are not an issue and fewer guns hit you back. Getting off 2-3 salvos first also knocks off a lot of guns/torps and engine before they even fire back. Already having torps in the water makes them more stressed and leaves you to focus only on gunning. Many waste time firing torps when they should use guns only.

 

 

3) if you are  more damaged/its a good gunboat or enemy team is near, leave it alone. You'll probably die.

 

Edit: all 3 requires you can get close unspotted of course.

 

I agree, people who dont know how to play DDs will probably be pushed back to ranges they are ineffective due to spot ranges.

 

UK DDs are good. Many and short smokes mean if you fark up one, its not a huge waste. The short duration learns you to be more active. Hydro is neat to dodge torps and getting first shot vs smoked DDs.

 

Eventually learning when to use AP is nice too, but if you stress with close up fights, just use HE.

 

Fist game with soviet dd

I will now invest some time in british dd's 

Also thank you for detailed input and advices 

DD's are really fun to play it seems 

[Nibenay78]

1 minute ago, ziratulbihac said:

 

Fist game with soviet dd

I will now invest some time in british dd's 

Also thank you for detailed input and advices 

DD's are really fun to play it seems 

They are very fun if you enjoy a bit more active game and sneaky play.

 

Until the CV comes and pisses on you with unavoidable damage and permaspot. Just smoke and retreat.

[ziratulbihac]

4 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

They are very fun if you enjoy a bit more active game and sneaky play.

 

Until the CV comes and pisses on you with unavoidable damage and permaspot. Just smoke and retreat.

I've played battleships, but they are just too slow for my brain like I feel like I am going to sleep, but still they bring a lot of laughs when you smack someone for 30k dmg

I've enjoyed Devonshire, Atago, Cheshire and now DD's - they are much more interactive and workable.   I've seen that heavy cruisers iike cheshire can inflict insane amounts of aa dmg, like I had almost 60k and 26 planes down in one game. 

[lameoll]

1 hour ago, ziratulbihac said:

But in general, are Soviet DD's competetive? 

as a dd not at all.

 

u play them as an annoyance to spam ships from range or u can use them as support for other dd's  But going for caps is rarely worth it 

 

in lower tier u learn how to play it that way  dont focus on torpedos but on guns and not being in the front line 

[Nibenay78]

6 minutes ago, ziratulbihac said:

I've seen that heavy cruisers iike cheshire can inflict insane amounts of aa dmg, like I had almost 60k and 26 planes down in one game. 

If you had checked, probably a lot of the kills had been fighter consumable.

 

In any case mostly an inconvenience for most CVs.

[Nibenay78]

9 minutes ago, ziratulbihac said:

I've played battleships, but they are just too slow for my brain like I feel like I am going to sleep

Dont rush into every battle at every possible moment in DDs either...

[ziratulbihac]

Just now, Nibenay78 said:

Dont rush into every battle at every possible moment in DDs either...

Yeah I've figured that it's better to wait a bit,  a lot of players yolo alone or wander somewhere so they can be isolated and even torpedoed sometime :D

[COPlUM]

You can ambush others to compensate for your bad concealment and 4km range torps, similar to how the french DDs are played (but you're not as good at this, no french reload booster or saturation)
You can drive around long range high speed (you take more damage than the french when you get hit while doing this, but you also pump out more damage because you have the best shell arcs)
The way you beat other DDs in Russian DDs is you fight them at medium-long range, as the distance increases, their guns will be throwing confetti shells at you, you will be shooting lasers at them.

Often two destroyers bump into eachother and shoot eachother while kiting away from eachother, that is a situation where Russians win because once you go past 7-8km you will have no problem landing shells, the other guy will be throwing confetti at you.
When you get to Grozovoi you get competitive concealment and competitive torpedoes on top of your laser guns and fast speed, but you should still take fights at mid-long range most of the time, because grozovoi is massive in size (bigger=eat more shells) and turns like a brick.
Russian DDs was my first line, I didn't realize at the time but it's a very difficult line to play, they are not "normal" destroyers in the same way french DDs and the new alternative German DD line are not "normal" destroyers.
If you are just starting/learning how to play destroyers, I recommend the British, they are much more forgiving to play, they are "normal" destroyers, they come with an escape tool if you mess something up and all of them from T5 to T10 are either very good (icarus, jervis, jutland) or amazing (lightning, daring)

In Russians, to beat other DDs, you have to hope the other DD is stupid and keeps shooting you at mid-long range when he is no longer hitting you and you are still hitting him. You need a lot more experience in destroyers to know how to "persuade" the other guy to make this mistake.

[COPlUM]

Destroyers are the hardest class to learn, and you're learning it in one of the two most difficult nations for destroyers. Don't try to become a DD player with 500 games played, if you really want to become a DD player with 500 games played, play the British or the main-line Germans (Z52 line) They are much easier to learn the class in. And going up the tiers slowly is even more important in destroyers, take your time getting used to T5 before playing T6 etc. Your progress on the russian line is not wasted because every DD player should have a Grozovoi at some point.

[GarrusBrutus]

6 hours ago, ziratulbihac said:

haven't played Destroyers at all. I've unlocked Tier V Russian Destroyer and I would like to play some games to learn the concept - do you guys have any advices? 

1. How to deal with 4 km torpedo distances
2. Is it actually possible to use higher speed to get much closer?
3. Do Russians DD's actually have a more precise guns from longer range, any use from them?

1. Just forget you have them and focus on guns. Sure, in very specific situations they might be useful.

2. Suuuuure..... but in RU DDs you dont want to be close. You want to sit at 100%-80% of your gun range.

3. Russian DDs beat every other nation DD at longer ranges, hence my comment above.

 

do you guys have any advices? 

You need to understand the strengths, weaknesses and purpose of RU DDs.

Strengths: Good gun characteristics, high speed, great range.

Weaknesses: Short range torps, low turret traverse speed, high detection radius.

Purpose: To spot enemy large vessels by using high speed to get on the flank quickly. Bait enemies into shooting you instead of your team. Farm them. Bait enemy DDs into gunduels with you, while you kite them and thus have the upper hand. You are NOT.... i repeat ..... you are NOT a cap contest destroyer.

 

Advice?

Built your ship and captains for guns. Forget concealment. Adapt to the running and gunning playstyle: 20 minutes of WASD and left mouse button usage *click click click* farm farm farm. Your job is to stay alive, farm damage and potential damage. At the start of the game you provide spotting by going wide early. Then you force DCPs on BBs, rotating your attention between them. Mid to late game, when the enemy bbs have either died or retreated, you try to contest the cap. That is how you give your team an advantage.

[COPlUM]

Russian destroyers was the first line of ships I played, years ago someone told me dude they are way too hard for a new player, try UK destroyers first, this was the immediate result :

 

After the British I did the Japanese, Europeans and Asians, results were better than the previous line every time without exceptions, only now do I feel comfortable playing French or Russians.
It's like playing radar minotaur for a new player that wants to get into light cruisers, the ship is turbo powerful in the right hands, have patience and play them later.
Ships should come with a difficulty rating (community vote) so new players start in new player friendly lines.

[COPlUM]

12 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Bait enemies into shooting you instead of your team.

I think this requires some explanation, people get confused when you tell them to get shot a lot  You getting shot a lot and dodging most of it increases your winrate dramatically because that's millions worth of damage shot at you (and missed mostly) which your team doesn't have to tank, thus improving winrate dramatically. But it only works if you're actually good at farming people from max range, otherwise they will see you as a nuisance, not a threat, and they won't waste their shells on you.

If a mogador or Tashkent is merely annoying/tickling you from 15km, the best play is to ignore him, but if the mogador or tashkent is actually good, you can't ignore him, you're forced to waste your shells on him to make him stop (maybe )

[OldPappy]

6 hours ago, ziratulbihac said:

Question: Soviet Destroyers

I haven't played Destroyers at all. I've unlocked Tier V Russian Destroyer and I would like to play some games to learn the concept - do you guys have any advices? 

1. How to deal with 4 km torpedo distances
2. Is it actually possible to use higher speed to get much closer?
3. Do Russians DD's actually have a more precise guns from longer range, any use from them?

Now, I havent read all the answers so possibly this answer is coming a lot. The russian dds are fun but need some experience and skill. They are long distance spammers mainly. 

I would start with the US, IJN or possibly the RN. They will teach you all you need to know about basic dd tactics. 

 

Podvoisky is great fun when you know how to use the 360 degree guns, the speed and the hard hitting - but SHORT range - torps. I use it mainly for coop mission play for torp damage or torp hit. It works very well against the bots. Only Nicholas is better in this regard.

Feel free to ask for some division play if you see me on the high seas if you want some advice. There are much better players with more experience than me out there, but every little bit helps. Have fun!

[GarrusBrutus]

1 minute ago, COPlUM said:

I think this requires some explanation, people get confused when you tell them to get shot a lot

You're right...

@ziratulbihac

 

 

Lesson 1 in farming potential damage as a RU DD:

Concealment

Make your concealment as garbage as possible, so you get spotted as soon as possible. Call it a lighthouse build or whatever. This might feel like a disadvantage but in reality it acts as a kind of radar against enemy DDs. Because once you get spotted, you know an enemy DD is close and you need to start kiting. Since you got spotted, most enemy ships on that flank will take a shot at you. This reveals their position and gives you an estimate of what you're up against.

 

Quick tip: Make sure you run either Incoming Fire Alert or Priority Target (or both). Why? Because they give you a headsup when you're being shot at. If nothing is shooting you, this means you can farm for free without having to move and dodge. Very useful.

 

Dodging.

Now that you've been spotted and the enemies have shot at you, you completely stop the engines and turn out. This dodging manoeuvre will make 99% of players miss you and works on all ships. After the shells have splashed into the water in front of you, you start to accelerate again. Be aware that repeating this manoeuvre will decrease its effectiveness as enemies will anticipate it. At that point dodging becomes a little mindgame. You keep alternating your course and speed whilst trying to judge where the enemies shot as soon as the shells leave their barrels. Did they overlead? Slow down. Did they anticipate you to turn? Straight line. Did you ripple fire? Try to manoeuvre to dodge most of it. Sometimes this can lead to you sitting stationary broadside and just move back and forth at 1/4 speed. Highly amusing when enemies get frustrated because they have a hard time hitting you.

 

Constantly firing?

Technically yes, but sometimes the situation requires you to hold your fire for a bit. For example when you want to know if an enemy DD is close to you. (remember the concealment thing?) Or when you get shot at by too many enemies at once which makes dodging really hard. Let them focus others for a bit before you reopen fire. 

[COPlUM]

Following Garrus's advice for the RU line will cost you about 100K elite XP or 500 doubloons when you reach the end though, because Grozovoi is a hybrid, it's played like a gunboat as described but it also has competitive concealment so it can do normal DD tasks when needed (it's just not as good at it because it's huge and turns like a brick) The strength of Grozovoi is you can be a poor man's Kleber or a poor man's Gearing depending on what the match needs, I recommend getting concealment back when you reach grozovoi, the versatility is too good to pass up.

[Verblonde]

7 hours ago, ziratulbihac said:

I might try other lines first :)

I concur with what others have said i.e. that the Russian DDs are good, but in the hands of an expert (generally; Groz, for an example of an exception, can be built in such a way that she's effective with a more 'normal' DD skill-set). I might think in the following terms:

• IJN and USA first; the former will teach you all about torp boats and being a sneaky bar-steward (with bonus glorious dakka if you go up the alternative line; do the Shima line first though), while the latter will teach you all about guns with dubious fire arcs, and the necessity for ambushes (in a generally more forgiving platform than the Russians). Most of the IJN DDs get royally dumped on by CVs (if you get a CV, the best you can do is make their life as difficult as possible, waste as much of their time as possible, then move onto the next game); the US have less bad AA (they can mount DefAA from mid tier), but you are still going to get tonked by a competent CV driver - luckily, a lot of CV drivers aren't competent.
• After that, I'd suggest a 'hydro' line: this means KM original line (avoid the 'baby cruisers' line) or the RN. Personally, I think the Germans are probably the better teaching line (mainly thanks to longer ranged hydro - T5+), whilst the British are the more competitive line overall (T8-10, you can make a case for them being the best silver DDs tier-for-tier. All keepers. Mount a coal hydro mod on each, if you have the coal spare.). Not irrelevantly, the RN get a healing potion from T9.
• After that, it's really player's choice: the Russians can be fun (regardless of PvP, they're generally monsters in Coop), and @COPlUM's point about everyone needing to have Groz is well made. The French are viewed by many as doing a similar job to the Russians, only better (the damage saturation thing can be helpful). The Ikea line is fun (no smoke, but you get a heal), with ludicrously fast torps (albeit with low damage) and less bad AA than most - especially at T10. PA is worthwhile, with their deepwater torps (and recently added torp reload booster at higher tiers), and the option of radar from T8 (usually better to use when you have reliable allies). Not sure about the Italians yet, but they look as though they can be filed under 'niche' (certainly not a newcomer's line).

[Verblonde]

BTW @ziratulbihac although much more long-term, something to vaguely think about: if you stick with the game long enough to complete five lines to T10, you'll unlock the Research Bureau. This is rather end-game content (not that everyone treats it as such), but it does have an impact when selecting lines.

• Most people have a small number of lines that they reset (in my case, it's most usually the two IJN DD lines).
• For those lines (or line) that you are going to reset, it's a good idea to have a separate captain for each ship that you'll actually play (usually T5-T10).

Although this is very long-term at this stage, I mention it as it provides a potential way round the Groz captain issue mentioned earlier: if you have a distinct captain for all the Russian DDs from T5-T10, you can build each one optimally for the ship they're assigned to, and not have to spend resources resetting them for each ship. Of course, the down-side is that you have to start again from scratch (well, from 6 or 10 points - generally - depending on which resources you have available) with each new captain.