Are you f*cking kidding me ?

[Siagor]

16 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Our coders had to use tricks to force controllable solutions

or should it be "had to use force to trick controllable solutions"?

 

[Dutchy_2019]

7 hours ago, bloodynicknames said:

 

actually, and I just tested this out, it has nothing to do with that and it's a lot more screwed up than I thought it was. 

Underwater ramming works A LOT different than surface ramming. 

 

If you surface ram a Mino with a sub it takes 8k damage, thats consistent give or take 100 damage, i've tried that a couple times now. The sub ALWAYS takes its full health in damage on impact. 

even with ramming flag the mino will do a lot more damage to the sub than to survive the initial impact(~12k damage to mino with flag but the sub still instantly dies)

 

but underwater things dont work that way and whats written in the wiki doesnt apply. 

The sub takes a lot less damage and you can actually see the "ticks" of the ramming damage being deducted from the health pool before you die. this is roughly 3-5k per tick from a mino(again, tried this a couple of times). 

that being said, the damage the sub does to the mino is extremely inconsistent. I've had results as close the mino only having ~4k health left to only doing 2k damage to it in total. 

 

all that being said it's still utter [edited] a 18.9k hp ship can do 44.3k ramming damage no matter the situation. 

for comparisons sake, the only time I managed to do actual full HP damage to a mino when ramming was with the marceau going 55knts and hitting it dead center, that did 21.9k

 

so yeah, I dont know what that was but that certainly cant be by design rather i'm assuming it's some sort of weird glitch 

 

I would say it is definitely by design.

 

Perhaps not in the deliberate sense that WG Programmers / game devs came out with the intention that submarines should be ablo to ram a Mino into sinking.\

 

But it is definitely by design, simply because of the fact that the devs try to force in a class that within the game mechanics DOES NOT FIT IN THE GAME PROPERLY! It is a direct result of them wanting to make the submarines popular enough to play, making them broken mechanically. It is a direct result of how the programming/game engine interaction works. 

So yeah, it is definitely by design.

[Dutchy_2019]

2 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

Leaving aside the fact that @bloodynicknames can't even remember properly how much HP the submarine had at the moment, at first glance it's still a pretty rare, almost fishy happenstance. I concur with @ghostbuster_ that having the replay would be ideal so others can watch what happened by themselves.

 

From my understanding of the mechanic, there would've been two theoretical ways:

• A detonation. If none appears in the replay, it would indicate that detonations have less importance than ramming in the server's algorithm. What I mean by it is that the ramming provokes a detonation and its damage, but due to the flow of code it also overrides the assignment of the Detonation achievement and other visual clues (like the "player detonates player" icon or the message in chat).
• A double collision: first a low-speed one draining health, then a high-speed one that takes away the remainder at once.

The first option (detonation) implies either a single high-speed collision or a double one, so the calculations that follow for the latter case also apply. Since damage would've been "proportional to healthpools", I've run some numbers:

• Without Hotel Yankee, it should've been impossible for the submarine to do such a feat without a detonation: a full-health sub scratching until almost dead (18.9k HP) would've dealt at most 8.25k (since the submarine's healthpool is about 43.65% of Minotaur's 43.3k) in exchange for a total of 27.15k damage when combining both rammings. 8.25k damage from scratching means 19.05% of Minotaur's health, so the detonation could only trigger (if it actually did happen) because of/after the high-speed phase (no detonations while above 75% HP).
• With Hotel Yankee (-20% damage received, +50% damage dealt), in order to scratch 14.95k from Minotaur at the bare minimum, the sub should still have had at the very least 9.97k HP remaining (52.73% of its healthpool) for the following high-speed hit to finally do the killing. In return, Minotaur would've dealt 80% of 52.73% of its own pool, so 18.27k damage, i.e. the submarine had to be almost full HP to survive the scratching. In this case, the detonation threshold could be reached during this phase.

Looking at the numbers in the provided screenshot, not even the Hotel Yankee scenario seems to suffice unless a detonation is in place. Who knows, maybe some cosmic rays just went through the server...

 

Salute.

 

Whatever health the submarine had at the moment, a submarine ramming a 2/3 health Mino to death should be impossible in ANY way, shape or form in the game. Even when going full speed and at full health.

A submarine being able to double ram also INCREDIBLY stupid, and shows how they are made stupidly tanky (together with the absurdly high HP pool, which is articficially increased massively by the completely broken damage reduction mechanics for dropped depth charges and splash damage).

 

19 registered HE hits in a Jervis and a depth charge hit are still not enough to sink a T8 submarine, leaving it at 20% health (of course I got sunk, because I was spotted by the sub and fired upon by the enemy). 

[SodaBubbles]

21 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Whatever health the submarine had at the moment, a submarine ramming a 2/3 health Mino to death should be impossible in ANY way, shape or form in the game. Even when going full speed and at full health.

A submarine being able to double ram also INCREDIBLY stupid, and shows how they are made stupidly tanky (together with the absurdly high HP pool, which is articficially increased massively by the completely broken damage reduction mechanics for dropped depth charges and splash damage).

 

19 registered HE hits in a Jervis and a depth charge hit are still not enough to sink a T8 submarine, leaving it at 20% health (of course I got sunk, because I was spotted by the sub and fired upon by the enemy). 

 

Haha. It took me 14 depth charges AND HE/AP hits AND help from friends to put down a Balao in coop the other day. I was in Ognevoi.

I really thought the broken Rework CVs were the absolute nadir of game design, but WG has exceeded my expectations. 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

We'd really need to see the replay.

 

On a side note, the whole submarine interaction is broken. This weird mix of historic facts and fictionalized features very unintuitive to play against.

Just one example: WG made it historic that surface ships drop depth charges as they pass over the submerged submarine, cause in reality the blast and the resulting gas bubble would have torn the hull of the DD if it sat on top of the explosion. This concept worked, cause submerged submarines travelled at 10 kts speed. The DDs doing 30 kts went over the submarines position with such a speed advantage, the sub was almost stationary in comparison.

In WoWs you are chasing after a sub that is almost as fast as the DD. In a DD, you are desperately trying to get ahead of its course, and not just a couple of meters but you need to overtake the submarine and be ahead of it several boat lengths, so the slowly descending depth charges reach their fusing depth before the sub has raced through the area of the drop. And if the sub decides to take a hard turn, you basically immediately overshot the sub, that you were just ahead enough to make a successful, but not deadly drop. Ofc if the sub slows down instead and just weathers the damage of the depth charges while making for persicope depth, the DD immediately goes from hunter to hunted, as he is sitting in perfect position for the sub to hit him with unguided torps.

 

If depth charges worked that way and subs would have been that fast, depth charges would historically not have been invented to attack subs in the first place. So DDs are bound to abide to historic accuracy, while an underwater racecar can pull all the stops of history.

[Estaca_de_Bares]

13 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Whatever health the submarine had at the moment, a submarine ramming a 2/3 health Mino to death should be impossible in ANY way, shape or form in the game. Even when going full speed and at full health.

A submarine being able to double ram also INCREDIBLY stupid, and shows how they are made stupidly tanky (together with the absurdly high HP pool, which is articficially increased massively by the completely broken damage reduction mechanics for dropped depth charges and splash damage).

That's why I said it's all purely theoretical. In the first place, there's the assumption that collisions work the same way no matter the direction they happen (which may or may not be true, see @Europizza's post regarding a similar situation at the end of the first page). Secondly, the double collision scenario, albeit extremely improbable, should be possible in theory: in one server's calculation cycle both ships are in contact (HP drain), in the next one they're not (damage stops, yet the key ship -in this case, the submarine- still has HP left). We've all seen in screenshots, videos or in-game how wonky the physics of collisions can be between friendly ships and against the environment, why consider as an impossibility something like that occurring between enemy ships once in a blue moon?

 

Regarding the "sub ramming a 2/3 HP Minotaur to death" part, the numbers again say it's theoretically possible with some leeway (18.9k HP with Hotel Yankee should deal up to 28.35k damage, which is slightly over 65% of Minotaur's pool, not to mention flooding if DCP and repair are both on cooldown). I do agree with the tankiness and high healthpool assessment, though: even when tweaked for playability reasons (e.g., a T2-3 cruiser has about the same pool as a TX destroyer in spite of double the displacement), a Type XXI having 1k hit points more than a Shimakaze (base, which can be increased with SE for the DD but not for the submarine... for now) while weighing almost a thousand tons less doesn't bode that well.

 

Salute.

[DDsOnly]

This ramming bs has been in the game since alpha, so what are you crying about?

[imperialis6]

nobody wanted subs so do not play them  AND STOP SPENDING ANY MONEY ON ANYTHING IN THE GAME, you can put up as many anti subs post as you like, persons will still play them because they are the latest op thing in the game or just to annoy everyone else, at the moment there is only a few real good players that play them just wait till the rest catch up them the plague of subs will really begin 

[Capt_okieH]

WoWs is broken as hell.

Hear me WG? [edited]YOUR T11 Ships, [edited]YOUR Subs ( how you SUPPORT them, +500% RNG ) [edited]you Clanseason, [edited]IT OFF ALL. Spent my Money in Real Life, thx..

[Alchemist79]

A little of topic, but im having mental images of you firing 268 shells at the ocean surface in utter frustration not knowing where that sub is :D

[Hades_warrior]

THe smartest thing that player base can do is - #BoycottWorldofWarships

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

On 5/13/2022 at 2:14 PM, bloodynicknames said:

So, imagine this scenario, you're in a minotaur, full health, chasing down U-2501 who is at 1/3 health 

You're exactly above him and drop depth charges and the guy surfaces below you and just 1-shots you with a ram.

That's right, 43300 damage from a sub ramming the Minotaur, are you f*cking kidding me WG ? What is this crap ? 

Wheres the limit here ? If this is intetional, does it work for BBs ? would be a nice trade, when you're almost dead just come up below somebody and boom, oneshot

 

 

Getting probed in the butt by a sub periscope is gonna really hurt. Never do missionary position with a sub....

[T0byJug]

On 5/13/2022 at 4:44 PM, bloodynicknames said:

 

actually, and I just tested this out, it has nothing to do with that and it's a lot more screwed up than I thought it was. 

Underwater ramming works A LOT different than surface ramming. 

 

If you surface ram a Mino with a sub it takes 8k damage, thats consistent give or take 100 damage, i've tried that a couple times now. The sub ALWAYS takes its full health in damage on impact. 

even with ramming flag the mino will do a lot more damage to the sub than to survive the initial impact(~12k damage to mino with flag but the sub still instantly dies)

 

but underwater things dont work that way and whats written in the wiki doesnt apply. 

The sub takes a lot less damage and you can actually see the "ticks" of the ramming damage being deducted from the health pool before you die. this is roughly 3-5k per tick from a mino(again, tried this a couple of times). 

that being said, the damage the sub does to the mino is extremely inconsistent. I've had results as close the mino only having ~4k health left to only doing 2k damage to it in total. 

 

all that being said it's still utter [edited] a 18.9k hp ship can do 44.3k ramming damage no matter the situation. 

for comparisons sake, the only time I managed to do actual full HP damage to a mino when ramming was with the marceau going 55knts and hitting it dead center, that did 21.9k

 

so yeah, I dont know what that was but that certainly cant be by design rather i'm assuming it's some sort of weird glitch 

Log a support request for this.. it could well be a bug ..I dont recall there being a Machanic for extra damage if you surface underneath a ship.

You will need to get WGCHECK and the replay.. PM me and I can help you sort the stuff you need.  I have to submit bug reports all the time