Should DD players at least get spread evenly between teams according to their DD stats?

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Hi guys.

 

Not sure what you guys think about this and I'm certainly not the most experienced and certainly not the best player in this game BUT, what seems to be very obvious in random battles and in fact just about any PvP mode is that whatever team loses their DD's first or alternatively have DD's that do f all for the entire battle ends up being the losing team.

 

Edit- TLDR - balance DD players evenly between both teams based on their ability with DD's. This is not a request for all players in a battle to be balance like this or any other class, but at least a highly important role such as DD's. 

 

So basically a battle can visually be seen to be decided very early on as one team has 3 DD's healthy and alive while the other team has zero, died almost as soon as they were spotted after hard charging into a cap or idiotically started a gun fight close to several enemy cruisers. This is one of those situations where having CV's in the battle is actually beneficial since they can fill the spotting role albeit in a more periodically limited offering before their aircraft eventually get shot down by drifting too close to high camo ships they otherwise wouldn't be able to spot OR the enemy CV deploys some fighters to chop them down.

 

Anyway, while there's a great argument to be made for teams to have ALL players balanced somewhat evenly between them based on their stats with the particular class of ship they are currently playing in that battle, I feel the consequences of having very imbalanced player skills with DD's between teams is just detrimental. By contrast, sure, a good and bad cruiser or BB player will start translating into a telling difference across the course of a long battle but not almost immediately as is the case when a team losing all their DD players almost instantly.

[ColonelPete]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Hi guys.

 

Not sure what you guys think about this and I'm certainly not the most experienced and certainly not the best player in this game BUT, what seems to be very obvious in random battles and in fact just about any PvP mode is that whatever team loses their DD's first or alternatively have DD's that do f all for the entire battle ends up being the losing team.

 

So basically a battle can visually be seen to be decided very early on as one team has 3 DD's healthy and alive while the other team has zero, died almost as soon as they were spotted after hard charging into a cap or idiotically started a gun fight close to several enemy cruisers. This is one of those situations where having CV's in the battle is actually beneficial since they can fill the spotting role albeit in a more periodically limited offering before their aircraft eventually get shot down by drifting too close to high camo ships they otherwise wouldn't be able to spot OR the enemy CV deploys some fighters to chop them down.

 

Anyway, while there's a great argument to be made for teams to have ALL players balanced somewhat evenly between them based on their stats with the particular class of ship they are currently playing in that battle, I feel the consequences of having very imbalanced player skills with DD's between teams is just detrimental. By contrast, sure, a good and bad cruiser or BB player will start translating into a telling difference across the course of a long battle but not almost immediately as is the case when a team losing all their DD players almost instantly.

• A lot of DD sink because they are targeted by better BB and cruiser players
• Surviving as a DD can be achieved by staying away from the enemy, that is not a sign of skill

[The_Angry_Admiral]

26 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Hi guys.

 

Not sure what you guys think about this and I'm certainly not the most experienced and certainly not the best player in this game BUT, what seems to be very obvious in random battles and in fact just about any PvP mode is that whatever team loses their DD's first or alternatively have DD's that do f all for the entire battle ends up being the losing team.

 

So basically a battle can visually be seen to be decided very early on as one team has 3 DD's healthy and alive while the other team has zero, died almost as soon as they were spotted after hard charging into a cap or idiotically started a gun fight close to several enemy cruisers. This is one of those situations where having CV's in the battle is actually beneficial since they can fill the spotting role albeit in a more periodically limited offering before their aircraft eventually get shot down by drifting too close to high camo ships they otherwise wouldn't be able to spot OR the enemy CV deploys some fighters to chop them down.

 

Anyway, while there's a great argument to be made for teams to have ALL players balanced somewhat evenly between them based on their stats with the particular class of ship they are currently playing in that battle, I feel the consequences of having very imbalanced player skills with DD's between teams is just detrimental. By contrast, sure, a good and bad cruiser or BB player will start translating into a telling difference across the course of a long battle but not almost immediately as is the case when a team losing all their DD players almost instantly.

It's down to teamwork. 

 

DD's need the support of their cruisers and BB's. You have to keep an eye on what ships are in the lineup,  especially cruisers with radar and hydro and not to mention CV's.

[invicta2012]

If you want something doing properly... do it yourself. Bring your best DD and make the difference. 

 

(Sympathy here: DD life is hard. It's like Frith's speech at the beginning of Watership Down -  "All the world will be your enemy. And if they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you.... ". DD's were the only line I really enjoyed playing in Randoms and it got too stressful. Gawd alone knows what its's like with all the Schleiffens and what nots about). 

 

I would struggle to think of what sort of MM trickery could be introduced to cope with this. A high PR DD player matched with a low one? Mirrored MM would mean two DDs on each side and 50% chance of the noob running straight into a guaranteed unicum on the other team. Probably even less well balanced than it is now. 

[KillStealBoss]

Because some DDs are rushing the caps too fast/early. And then get caught in bad position with crossradar or CV perma spot. 

 

DD is a very important class and very unforgiving. Some DDs can't make even the smallest mistake of they have slow speed and no tools like heal or smoke. Some DD players are also greedy and take a Kagero or Yugumo without smoke but they're good enough to use it like that. It's multiple reasons, not only the skill. The amount of radars, if there's something like Smoleńsk or Mino too close that can smash the DD, or a Conqueror. The map is a factor as well, some maps have some safe cap areas, others don't. 

[Captn_Crap]

You want to punish good DD players by giving them bad DD teammates and reward bad DD players by giving them good DD teammates?

[Bear__Necessities]

Your post makes no sense? Do you mean to suggest that because I got really good in DD's, I should be punished while bad DD players get rewarded?....

[COPlUM]

1 hour ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Not sure what you guys think about this and I'm certainly not the most experienced and certainly not the best player in this game BUT, what seems to be very obvious in random battles and in fact just about any PvP mode is that whatever team loses their DD's first or alternatively have DD's that do f all for the entire battle ends up being the losing team.

What you're seeing is accurate, the team with the best DD players almost always wins, this is also why many good players essentially stopped playing other classes, they want to play other classes but they feel like they can't. The only way they can ensure there's at least one good DD on their team is do it themselves. Many good DD mains only play destroyers solo, they play other classes in divisions and it's a relief for them of sorts, they finally feel like this can play other classes, because one of their friends will do just fine in the destroyer. Your proposed solution, however, is terrible. Because you would effectively be punishing DD players who took the time and effort to git gud, while rewarding DD players who did not. Skill based matchmaking has this very unpleasant effect. What you're seeing is in fact so accurate that, while it is impossible to go under 44% winrate solo in battleships/cruisers, it's possible to dip under 40% in destroyers, the class is simply more decisive in who wins and who loses.

The only good solution to this can come from within the community, please don't play destroyers at high tier until you're reasonably good in them in low tier. You're screwing your team so hard if you do this, you're also screwing yourself because if you're bad and you're in a battleship, you'll still win 45'ish% of your games, if you're bad and in a destroyer, you'll win less than 40%'ish% of your games.

Ships have an inherent influence on the outcome of the match, it correlates with what you should (generally) prioritize when shooting things :
CVs > DDs > Radar cruisers > Battleships > HE Spammers

What you're seeing is partially offset by carriers being in the game, one of the few positive things carriers bring to the game in my opinion is some hope of winning for the team with the suicide-dds. Radar cruisers also partially offset this. Presumably this is why weegee implemented planes and radar in the first place. Without carriers and radar cruisers, the game would literally be : Spawn => My DD died => I lost

*I added 'almost' as a caveat to make Pete happy. He doesn't like me speaking in absolute terms when there are exceptions

[KillStealBoss]

18 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

Your post makes no sense? Do you mean to suggest that because I got really good in DD's, I should be punished while bad DD players get rewarded?....

No. He wants DD players in certain battle to be good on both sides or bad on both sides. So skill based MM for DDs. 

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Hmmm, maybe I worded it badly.

 

Well its simple really, balance MM so both teams get DD players of similar abilities. 

 

That way if one team has a player with good DD stats, the other team must also have DD player of similar abilities within a sensible spectrum obvious, not the exact same or else would be slower waiting times. Same deal with average and bad DD players. Spread them evenly between teams. Not one team has one or more experienced DD players while the other team has complete nubs that have no idea what they are doing and either die instantly or fap about behind their cruisers and BB's all battle. 

 

It seems to just happen too often where early in a battle one team loses most or all their DD's while the other team doesn't and that's pretty much decided the result. There's still always going to be battles like that no matter what changes would be made but if we at least spread the DD players evenly between both teams at least this scenario wouldn't manifest as often.

[COPlUM]

46 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Hmmm, maybe I worded it badly.

What you said is accurate and you didn't word it badly, but you're not really reading the replies you're getting. Skill based matchmaking comes with a pretty massive built-in flaw :
> Be good player
> You don't win more than 50% anyway because you're being matched against other good players only, effectively punished for being good at the game
> Be bad player
> You win 50% of your games anyway because you're being matched against other bad players only, effectively rewarded for being bad at the game
Your proposed solution would also stop working rather quickly, because with a skill based matchmaker, everyone's winrate would become 50%, how would you even know who is good and bad anymore
All incentives to improve would be gone, the best players would just straight-up quit because why try so hard to win if the matchmaker will make sure you lose your next round as a result (mathematically)
What you're suggesting is basically videogame communism, it doesn't work, things collapse if you take away the incentive structure, everything does. Human beings have an innate tendency to not give a toss about things if there is no correlation between effort and reward, it's in our DNA

Also thank you for making a topic that isn't trash, it was very much needed today

[MarChil]

Pls don't ask WG to fiddle with MM. It always makes things worse. We must accept the fact that it's a piece of garbage and deal with it.

 

[COPlUM]

5 minutes ago, MarChil said:

Pls don't ask WG to fiddle with MM. It always makes things worse. We must accept the fact that it's a piece of garbage and deal with it.

What's garbage about it? It's random. Just like every other war-type game and every other multiplayer shooter game. The randomness is what makes it fair, because after thousands of games, the average winrate of all the teammates and opponents you ever had is 50%, making you the only differentiating factor, that's what a matchmaker is supposed to achieve, only a random system can do that.

[MarChil]

32 minutes ago, COPlUM said:

What's garbage about it? It's random. Just like every other war-type game and every other multiplayer shooter game. The randomness is what makes it fair, because after thousands of games, the average winrate of all the teammates and opponents you ever had is 50%, making you the only differentiating factor, that's what a matchmaker is supposed to achieve, only a random system can do that.

A) If it were truly random, there wouldn't be equal amounts of BB's, DD's etc

B) Teams get unbalanced because WG refuses to acknowledge certain ships to outmatch others on important features, and lacking certain features make to game unbalanced. To often it's a steamroll/blowout because of this.

Try claiming balance after fighting a super CV/smaland/ragnar/sherman/Petro×2 in a Daring/halland/shima without radar backup. Maybe, after 10K games and a lot of talent, but it's not fun either way.

Please don't assume it's about something it's not, it makes for bad discussions.

 

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, MarChil said:

A) If it were truly random, there wouldn't be equal amounts of BB's, DD's etc

B) Teams get unbalanced because WG refuses to acknowledge certain ships to outmatch others on important features, and lacking certain features make to game unbalanced. To often it's a steamroll/blowout because of this.

Try claiming balance after fighting a super CV/smaland/ragnar/sherman/Petro×2 in a Daring/halland/shima without radar backup. Maybe, after 10K games and a lot of talent, but it's not fun either way.

Please don't assume it's about something it's not, it makes for bad discussions.

 

As if ship balance were the problem...

[COPlUM]

Just now, MarChil said:

Teams get unbalanced because WG refuses to acknowledge certain ships to outmatch others on important features, and lacking certain features make to game unbalanced.

That too is balanced by the randomness of it, over thousands of games, just like how the average winrate of all your teammates would have been 50%, your team would have had the stronger ships 50% of the time. You're talking about a game, or 10 games, or 100 games. I'm talking about thousands. Over thousands of games, the only differentiating factor is you, not your team, not the ship line-up, you.

[COPlUM]

Just now, ColonelPete said:

As if ship balance were the problem...

I'm leaving for another year or whatever, I disagree with how nice you are and how much patience you have with some of these ... specimens. But I do respect it in a weird way, I could not do what you do, I would have unironically blown my brains out by now.

[COPlUM]

.

[TacitRainbow]

If only there was a way to reward dd players more for things like:

 

- spotting

- contesting cap circles (that is just sitting in the circle and stopping enemy dd from taking it)

- succesfully capping circles

- smoking for your team instead of yourself

However I'm sure there are many deeply technical reasons why implementing such things is amazingly complex and beyond my ability to comprehend. How unfortunate.

 

 

[BrusilovX]

When I was still playing random battles I was getting frustrated by BBs and CAs hiding behind islands with no way they could support me in a DD.  Many times I was on a flank but with the support ships all unable to fire in the direction I was (in front of them closer to the enemy) because they were island hugging.

 

There were a couple of game I told the BB that if they stayed there I would move from the flank.   There was no change so I moved off.  They were left with nothing spotting in front of them and was surrounded by a DD and cruisers and it did not end well for them.

 

I had this in ranked battles as well where the enemy DD had support but I did not again despite having the same number of ships on the flank.

 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

3 hours ago, Captn_Crap said:

You want to punish good DD players by giving them bad DD teammates and reward bad DD players by giving them good DD teammates?

It's not about the DD's players, it's about balancing out the team they're in.

[Spellfire40]

4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

• A lot of DD sink because they are targeted by better BB and cruiser players
• Surviving as a DD can be achieved by staying away from the enemy, that is not a sign of skill

Well once upon a time cap zones werent death traps for DDs to be lured in and die. The fact that they keep curning out non team oriented DDs and give anyone either hydro or radar or insane speed on ships  4 to 6 times the size of DDs.isnt DD players fault.

[MarChil]

18 minutes ago, COPlUM said:

That too is balanced by the randomness of it, over thousands of games, just like how the average winrate of all your teammates would have been 50%, your team would have had the stronger ships 50% of the time. You're talking about a game, or 10 games, or 100 games. I'm talking about thousands. Over thousands of games, the only differentiating factor is you, not your team, not the ship line-up, you.

last time I kept serious track, I marked 100 games. about 30% I lost or won because line-up was clearly unbalanced. 15% very probably because I screwed up/had a good day, 25% other factors mainly involving teammates, opponents or plain RNG issues everybody should face. Sure, it's my perspective, but I think 60% is a lot of games that got pretty much decided by faith. Just a bit of attention of WG and I can screw-up more games myself instead of having an algorithm do it for me.

Undoubtedly a hardcore, talented player can do more to influence, but they are a select few.

 

I would hate to be forced to play certain ships to make sure I stand a chance, because most ships I don't play, I don't play because they are not fun to fight against.  

[Verblonde]

2 hours ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

Well its simple really, balance MM so both teams get DD players of similar abilities.

I understand the sentiment, but suspect it'd be quite hard to do; for example, if you look at me as a (mediocre) DD player, and ships where I have 100+ Random battles:

• My WR varies from deep red (Harekaze - 43.48%; an early premium from before I knew when/how to use guns) through to almost okay (Fubuki - 59.81%).
• If you eliminate the mid tiers, I top out at 52.05% (Vanilla Asashio; S&M Asashio is 78.95%, but I only have 19 battles in her and got her more recently).
• If we worry less about decent sample sizes and - say - factor in anything I've played 10+ battles in at T8+, we get a range of 27.27% (ZF-6!) to Kinky Asashio's 78.95%.
• My overall WR in DDs is 49.74%.

So, where would you have MM put me? Even if you go with my average, if I pick something - say - a trifle French, I'm going to be a bit of a liability, whereas I'll be rather less so in something sneaky (or will I? WR in Yamagiri is currently languishing at 39.29%!)...

[Spellfire40]

6 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

It's not about the DD's players, it's about balancing out the team they're in.

Does the teams get players balaced on actually shoting spoted targets too? If you want to have skill based games play Clanbattles. You cant even balace Destroyer types most of the time. Why should they be able to balace by skill ?