Do you think RPF (Radio Location) should ALWAYS work against subs, regardless of whether they are submerged or not?

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

Currently, Radio Location is all but useless against subs, even though it is a very expensive skill and there is no logical reason why it wouldn't work against a submerged submarine.

Radio Location is a skill that requires you to sacrifice 4 points. It is what I would call a 'magical' skill, there is no real life equivalent for it, and as such, WG have not explained why it shouldn't work against submerged subs that are 100 meters away when it does work against ships that are 30 kilometers away behind massive rocky islands.

I f*cking hate subs, but if they're gonna stay, I want them to NOT be invulnerable to expensive skills I have on my DD's and cruisers that work on all other classes, EVEN CV'S! It's not even remotely reasonable.

 

So fix this, and players, please let me know how you feel about this.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Of course it should work against all ships regardless of their status.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

28 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Currently, Radio Location is all but useless against subs, even though it is a very expensive skill and there is no logical reason why it wouldn't work against a submerged submarine.

9 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Of course it should work against all ships regardless of their status.

An elegant and simple solution without creating additional problems.

Spoiler

So basically everything Lesta can't.

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Sonar... not radio.

[BrusilovX]

I'm just glad WG put so much thought into the introduction of submarines into the game.  Not.

 

There should have been implemented ASW as soon as submarines were introduced as they are attempting to balance them before all the equipment (Asdic) is in the game.  When they first introduced submarines into co-op there were ships, like the Tirpitz, that had no ASW capabilities at all.  I had to ram them.

 

It just shows lack of planning and thought into how to introduce a new class to the game.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

44 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Sonar... not radio.

Please elaborate.

[Panocek]

26 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

It just shows lack of planning and thought into how to introduce a new class to the game.

Not really. WG put much effort and planning to maximize profits from Sub introduction. Captain respecs (when we had any discount, let alone "free" one despite subs being constantly changing) as people might be interested to test various skills against new threat. Selectively adding or not ASW of varying effectiveness to existing premiums just to nudge you a bit to... acquire new premium boat that happens to have less dysfunctional ASW package.

 

New class being correctly frustrating to play against so people would spend money and resources to get "that OP griefing tool" for themselves, regardless if they would be up to the task of using one. Introduction of Subs into Rankeds/CBs also will encourage people to get them ASAP, especially when Subs enter game proper on bit more balans side of things.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

46 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Please elaborate.

 

We need functioning sonar detection against the subs, not underwater radio detection.

[Panocek]

18 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

We need functioning sonar detection against the subs, not underwater radio detection.

We had that and it was yeeted because it was actually working as intended

[NewHorizons_1]

Even though I loathe the implementation of subs I'm kinda inclined to vote no as there's no logical reason it should.

RPF at the moment detects subs on the surface or at periscope depth and that's fine for me.

 

However, the RADAR detection of subs at periscope depth should deffo be restored back to what it used to be, as that happened IRL.

I'd also get rid of that ridiculous initial cooldown for a sub's hydrophone so that they can hunt for each other ASAP.

[Yedwy]

No, there is no logic in that

 

It should work on periscope depth and surface level sub, at those depths sub should be allowed to target and torp surface ships as well and also be spotted  by planes and vulnerable to all fire including shells and bombs of all kinds, using the normal splash and pen / overpen rules like any other ship ofc

 

Same goes for radar consumable...

 

RPF should NOT detect deep subs and neither should radar but subs on those depths should only be allowed to attack other subs at same depths

 

Hydro on the other hand SHOUD detect ALL subs regardless of depth if needed for balance reasons subs on MAX depth can be visible within 2-3km radius from the hydro using ship instead of being detected in a normal radius,  if the ASW remains in the current form that is

[Wulf_Ace]

if this is the only problem...

I am more worried about stupidity of ASW.

I have to chase subs to get over them to sink them, while they can shoot homing torps at me hahah...

 

And BBs have the best ASW...haha again

 

Implementing something into the game that we now have to test it is beyond stupid. We want to play the game not test the game.

[Estaca_de_Bares]

2 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Currently, Radio Location is all but useless against subs, even though it is a very expensive skill and there is no logical reason why it wouldn't work against a submerged submarine.

Radio Location is a skill that requires you to sacrifice 4 points. It is what I would call a 'magical' skill, there is no real life equivalent for it, and as such, WG have not explained why it shouldn't work against submerged subs that are 100 meters away when it does work against ships that are 30 kilometers away behind massive rocky islands.

Ahem... radiogoniometry/radio direction finding (RDF) is a very real life SIGINT, and detection from behind islands (or beyond the horizon) would be due to this "little" thing called ionosphere. Although it could be argued that within the game's scope and scale the effect has been simplified (straight line no matter what's in the way) for the sake of playability.

 

My interpretation of the in-game skill is that all ships are transmitting cipher all the time in order to know their relative locations (which is why you're shown your team-mates on the minimap even when not within spotting range) and you're using the undecipherable (i.e., red team's) signals' strength to determine where the closest enemy is and RDF for its approximate bearing. On the one hand, the current behaviour appears to be fine when following the logic of how I see the skill working (the sub at such a depth wouldn't be able to emit radio); on the other hand and for the same reason, the sub shouldn't be able to receive position updates at all, not even from its own team, making it totally blind unless using its own devices, which is not the case. In any case, that's just how I see it (not how the game internally works) but, as a result, I do agree that the simplest solution would be not making submarines impervious to the skill under any circumstances.

 

As for the caveats regarding sub detection by other means pointed out by others, I agree with them.

 

Salute.

 

P.S.: A couple of interesting facts related to RDF during WW1. First, Emden was caught pants off by Sidney because the Germans used radiotelegraphy equipment which emitted with far more strength than what the British used, thus making von Müller think that the latter was further away than in reality. Second, the Germans switched call IDs between their flagship and its home port whenever a sortie was scheduled, which was known to the British Admiralty's intelligence but they didn't tell Jellicoe about such a custom, so he was unaware of the Hochseeflotte's presence at sea until Beatty stumbled upon it in the battle of Jutland.

[Shirakami_Kon]

1 hour ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Even though I loathe the implementation of subs I'm kinda inclined to vote no as there's no logical reason it should.

RPF at the moment detects subs on the surface or at periscope depth and that's fine for me.

 

However, the RADAR detection of subs at periscope depth should deffo be restored back to what it used to be, as that happened IRL.

I'd also get rid of that ridiculous initial cooldown for a sub's hydrophone so that they can hunt for each other ASAP.

It's like subs have a logical reason stuff they do. So we can't have a way to consistently locate them because it doesn't make sense while they can outrun and escape from even DDs and will get even more help for that next patch.

 

I thought the sense argument was out the window long ago already for anything regarding subs. 

[NewHorizons_1]

55 minutes ago, Shirakami_Kon said:

It's like subs have a logical reason stuff they do. So we can't have a way to consistently locate them because it doesn't make sense while they can outrun and escape from even DDs and will get even more help for that next patch.

 

I thought the sense argument was out the window long ago already for anything regarding subs. 

A high-tier sub's underwater mobility is one of many issues that contribute to DDs being of the least capable surface ships to counter subs.

However, I don't think the playerbase wants, or needs, to get into a "lack of common sense" contest with WG - we'll loose (I hope).

[Ronchabale]

LMFAO

Remove subs - Problem solved

[Khaba_Gandalf]

Vor 4 Stunden, Yedwy sagte:

 

Hydro on the other hand SHOUD detect ALL subs regardless of depth if needed for balance reasons subs on MAX depth can be visible within 2-3km radius from the hydro using ship instead of being detected in a normal radius,  if the ASW remains in the current form that is

I mean with hydro we already have two different ranges, so why not split it up to three:

 

Surface(d) ships 

Submerged ships 

Torpedoes

 

Or if that's too much :

 

Surface(d) ships

submerged ships and torpedoes

 

the later version would also have the benefit off buffing the vigilance skill. Which would turn the von Jütland Brothers from being pretty much useless compared with the other unique commanders into situational useful...

 

On the topic itself: I would restrict both radar and rpf to surface and submerged and keep the deepest depth as a safe haven except for a reduced hydro range. The fact that you can't see below the surface is mildly annoying, I'm not convinced that parking subs right below ships is necessary for them having a chance in battle. That's as dumb as the old smoke fire mechanic where you could spot a Yamato shooting its big guns in a smoke beyond 2km range. 

 

Also I would like to see a drop pattern notification for depth charges. Why BBs  can more or less pinpoint their drops from range, while DDs throw their attacks into the void (esp annoying with stuff like halland or Vampire 2) and have to get really close is speshul...

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

4 hours ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Even though I loathe the implementation of subs I'm kinda inclined to vote no as there's no logical reason it should.

RPF at the moment detects subs on the surface or at periscope depth and that's fine for me.

RPF makes no sense to begin with. There's no logic to it at all. So in order to be consistent in their illogic, WG should make RPF work on all classes equally. Not make subs exempt.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

3 hours ago, Estaca_de_Bares said:

Ahem... radiogoniometry/radio direction finding (RDF) is a very real life SIGINT, and detection from behind islands (or beyond the horizon) would be due to this "little" thing called ionosphere. Although it could be argued that within the game's scope and scale the effect has been simplified (straight line no matter what's in the way) for the sake of playability.

That is a very liberal and generous interpretation of what Radio Location might be bases in-game. So as long as we're being so generous, it should then also work on subs.

[Bubba_S]

RPF is such a lowlife skill that it should be removed completely

[ladautt]

Hydro detect DD behind island,

Radar detect DD behind island,

 

Why Hydro and Radar dont detect Subs ?

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

46 minutes ago, ladautt said:

Hydro detect DD behind island,

Radar detect DD behind island,

 

Why Hydro and Radar dont detect Subs ?

 

 

Because... subs don't hide behind the island like all the other ships?

[Cammo1962]

2 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

Because... subs don't hide behind the island like all the other ships?

Dang it you got me there @Karasu_Hidesuke 

[Yedwy]

15 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

RPF makes no sense to begin with. There's no logic to it at all. So in order to be consistent in their illogic, WG should make RPF work on all classes equally. Not make subs exempt.

RPF has sense in emulating observation radar that just gives bearing to the contact and aprox range and not precise data about it, radar consumable is more like targeting radar… I know they dont work quite like that irl even in ww2 but its a game after all

[illy]

radar can penetrate islands, subs are underwater speedboats with sidewinders, aircraft aren't affected by cyclones and thunderstorms, CVs are plane factories but your ship has limited aircraft, if any at all......the list is endless