Remove Submarines

[El2aZeR]

38 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

I believe in those facts

 

[HexOmega111x]

I NEVER saw that F***** sub. I spent the whole battle trying to avoid those torps. I took 12 of 20+ torps that guy was able to send because they have fast reload of course. That was my battle... How can WG think that this is what this game must be? Can they justify that mess we have now with those subs, the cvs, super cvs, super ships ranging from t11 to t14 for some of them. Wtf is wrong with those devs?

 

[Fastmotion]

2 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

They are 'harmless' because most players suck. The small but not insignifiant minority that knows what they're doing even just a little wreak havoc on everyone.

That makes no sense. It's like introducing waterborn pitbulls and then needing to learn where the dogbiscuits are. Yeah, you kind of have to, but the pitbulls are nonsense.

Not enough FOR YOU. A somewhat decent player can roam around and sink at will.

 

You agreed that Subs are harmless and also said that most Sub players are newcomers to proove that point. Well, we both agree that subs are in the lower TOP i nthe results and it doesn't matter if you believe that it is because they are beginners or i believe something else. We both agree that Sub players don't affect the results much.

 

Secondly you seem to say that a good Sub player which is a minority can sometimes cause harm. Well, if it is a minority and a rare case then that argument is useless. And every ship can cause significant value and not sometimes but most times. Just look at the battle results TOP3 ship types and that answers.

 

So, i suggest let's keep different opinions because i don't see any valid argument from your side. Hundreds of peopel have come after battles to cry to me and prove their popular opinion but they all lost the argumentation to me. I doupt that you now are somehow different with your popular view and could win any argumentation against me. Let's just keep different opinion and not violate Human Rights about water and thinking rights? Drink you water and have a different opinion just like me? Why to ban your right to drink water and have a different opinion?

[Fastmotion]

26 minutes ago, Stiglet3 said:

 

You fell into the same trap that Wargaming has, which is the reason for this disaster in the first place. Nobody is arguing about the overall effectiveness of subs, the problem is they aren't fun to play against. if you are picked as the target of a sub, you are not going to have a fun match.

Your argument seems to be that what is fun for you is good. For example, for you is fun to use Hydro and that's why you like it but for DDs your Hydro is not fun and there is not much to do against it. Should DD players say that it is not fun to play against cruisers?

[Shirakami_Kon]

7 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Your argument seems to be that what is fun for you is good. For example, for you is fun to use Hydro and that's why you like it but for DDs your Hydro is not fun and there is not much to do against it. Should DD players say that it is not fun to play against cruisers?

They can shoot said cruiser, spot that cruiser and call target on it until it's team gets rid of they still can torpedo said cruiser even with hidro on to force him in a position where it either takes the torps or gets in fron of the whole team(even both if unlucky enough). Remind me again how many of these workarounds do you have against a sub?

[Stiglet3]

9 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Your argument seems to be that what is fun for you is good. For example, for you is fun to use Hydro and that's why you like it but for DDs your Hydro is not fun and there is not much to do against it. Should DD players say that it is not fun to play against cruisers?

Nobody is complaining about Hydro, or DDs, or BBs, or Cruisers. Lots of people are complaining about subs.

[Fastmotion]

15 minutes ago, Shirakami_Kon said:

They can shoot said cruiser, spot that cruiser and call target on it until it's team gets rid of they still can torpedo said cruiser even with hidro on to force him in a position where it either takes the torps or gets in fron of the whole team(even both if unlucky enough). Remind me again how many of these workarounds do you have against a sub?

Your argument seems to be that DDs can spot a cruiser. That spotting is useless because either the cruiser was already spotted by the DD and the team couldn't have any benefit of that spotting or after the the spotting moment the spotted DD gets killed in a few seconds and many other situations. There is nothing much to do against such cruisers. Specially when you play in more advanced battle types like in the Golden Ranked league- when a 12km radar spots a DD then in most cases that DD dies and the cruiser stays safe.

Against Subs all ships cansee where the sonar ping comes fro mand send the bombs to that area. And besides that they see the oil mark on the water and other ways to handle subs. The main suggestion is toi learn to reposition immediately when one sees a Sub if you believe that your "team" usually don't help each other. If you have a helping team then you don't have to reposition.

 

If Subs have so mighty possibilities compared to radars, hidros and so on, then why Subs are harmlessly at the bottom of the battle results most of the times?

 

12 minutes ago, Stiglet3 said:

Nobody is complaining about Hydro, or DDs, or BBs, or Cruisers. Lots of people are complaining about subs.

Because it is popular to repeat what others say.

As i said i believe more in my eyes than to eyes of popular peoples. In the Golden Ranked league i don't see so many brainwashed opinions around and some have dared to agree with me. But they were afterwards probably banned/executed by others and lost accounts, don't you agree? It is like the community don't liek the word "war" and anyone who dares to say that word gets punished, that's why it seems that everybody is used properly the "right" word "military operation" and have the right opinions.

[Stiglet3]

3 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Because it is popular to repeat what others say.

No, because it is objectively true.

 

3 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

As i said i believe more in my eyes than to eyes of popular peoples.

So do I. Subs are bad for the game. I have observed that with my own eyes.

[Fastmotion]

1 minute ago, Stiglet3 said:

No, because it is objectively true.

 

So do I. Subs are bad for the game. I have observed that with my own eyes.

I can give you my last 5 Random battles results screenshots and all have Subs as the almost last TOP area. Your own eyes will see it. Can we agree that our eyes see differently those 5 clear pictures?

And, can you provide arguments to your objectively truth? I have never seen those. Hundreds of people have tried to show their thuth about many brainwashed opinions but they have all lost in that journey. Why is it so difficult to show the objective truth? Maybe i need a special glasses to see the truth?

[Stiglet3]

1 minute ago, Fastmotion said:

I can give you my last 5 Random battles results screenshots and all have Subs as the almost last TOP area. Your own eyes will see it. Can we agree that our eyes see differently those 5 clear pictures?

I'll say again, this is not about subs overall effectiveness.

[Fastmotion]

2 minutes ago, Stiglet3 said:

I'll say again, this is not about subs overall effectiveness.

Can you explain what do you mean? It seems that you lost your argument and now try to use another argument by saying "well, i lost with my 1 argument, but there must be some additional arguments that prove my belief". Well, which arguments you want to present that proves that subs are bad? I have heard from hundreds of people most arguments, maybe you can suprise with a new one?

What is Overall effectiveness if Subs are at the bottom of the results screen? Do they make some invisible harm that the results can't show?

[Stiglet3]

7 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Can you explain what do you mean?

The same thing I said in my first post, and another reply in this thread. Playing against subs is not fun. Playing them is not fun for most players. Subs may not have high effectiveness overall, but the few players they do engage will be made to have a miserable time.

 

You can't measure how fun something is with numbers, it's down to player opinion. There is not a single player I know in this game, including every clan member I have discussed this with, who says that subs are fun.

[SodaBubbles]

20 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Can you explain what do you mean? It seems that you lost your argument and now try to use another argument by saying "well, i lost with my 1 argument, but there must be some additional arguments that prove my belief". Well, which arguments you want to present that proves that subs are bad? I have heard from hundreds of people most arguments, maybe you can suprise with a new one?

What is Overall effectiveness if Subs are at the bottom of the results screen? Do they make some invisible harm that the results can't show?

 

 

My NA clan is losing the naval battle. But nobody has touched subs even though those are easy points. Because everyone knows how much subs suck for the other players in the match, and nobody in my clan wants to see more of them in match. Effective or not, they suck for the game, and they suck to play against. How that is not obvious is a mystery. 

You'd have to lack empathy as a person not to quickly grasp that people find them detestable, or to put them in a game where hardly anyone wants them. 

[Fastmotion]

2 minutes ago, Stiglet3 said:

The same thing I said in my first post, and another reply in this thread. Playing against subs is not fun. Playing them is not fun for most players. Subs may not have high effectiveness overall, but the few players they do engage will be made to have a miserable time.

 

You can't measure how fun something is with numbers, it's down to player opinion. There is not a single player I know in this game, including every clan member I have discussed this with, who says that subs are fun.

If you repeated your argument that "ban everything that is not fun for cruiser players" then i already replied with my opinion about such argument.

Also you say that Subs are harmful only rarely by a rare good players- that proves my arrguments well and proves that Subs are harmless in most of the times.

Finally you say that it is impossible to define what is is fun and maybe it is not possible that something is fun for everyone in this dualistic world? So, if you say that the term Fun is different for each person then that proves that your argument "ban everything that is not fun for cruiser players" is wrong, because many people don't see fun where you see.

Finally you say that your eyes haven't seen anybody yet who speaks like me and dares to say honest opinion about Subs? Well, i can share that i have seen some such people. Of cause they are rare to see just like in some countries it is rare to see someone using a word "war" because everybody are afraid to use that word because it is a prohibited word. That's why you don't see sometimes different opinions.

 

so, in conclusion i don't see from you and from other hundreds of people anything that i would agree with. And i suggest that let's keep different opinions. Does it hurt if 3-4 persons dares to have different opinions?

You can come to my game chat or to my clan's foru mto give your arguments. I don't visit this place so often.

[Fastmotion]

3 minutes ago, SodaBubbles said:

 

 

My NA clan is losing the naval battle. But nobody has touched subs even though those are easy points. Because everyone knows how much subs suck for the other players in the match, and nobody in my clan wants to see more of them in match. Effective or not, they suck for the game, and they suck to play against. How that is not obvious is a mystery. 

You'd have to lack empathy as a person not to quickly grasp that people find them detestable, or to put them in a game where hardly anyone wants them. 

You said that your clan doesn't play Subs in the Navan Battles but that example doesn't prove anything. It sounds like "in our country nobody uses the word War and we all use the word military operation". Well, do you think that the word "war" is somehow wrong and bad then just like subs are bad and wrong because in your country and in your clan people don't use it?

I posted a screenshot of my clan's Naval Battles and we don't loose it and we use all ship types. Maybe your clan should stop using Russian ships because of the war? That i would understand little bit more than the popular opposition against subs.

 

You say that Subs harm but we have proved that they are harmless. Also you say something sucks but can you define the terms "sucks", "cool", "fun" and so on? Why not to give clear arguments isntead of "it sucks" argument or instead of posting a funny picture?

 

Can you explain what kind of emphathy do you mean? Nonbody until today haven't been able to gove any arguments and any explanations to prove their popular opinion about Subs. They haven't proved to WG, haven't been able to prove to me.

I suggest that if you cannot say out clearly your arguments then let the other person have their own opinion. For example you thing that the word War and playing Subs are bad, but you can't explain it, so, let others use the word War and play Subs and have a different opinion about them? also, let WG have the right to believe differently than you.

[Stiglet3]

1 minute ago, Fastmotion said:

If you repeated your argument that "ban everything that is not fun for cruiser players" then i already replied with my opinion about such argument.

I haven't mentioned anything about just cruiser players specifically, I don't know why you keep using this example. Subs aren't fun for anyone, so thats why they should be removed.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Also you say that Subs are harmful only rarely by a rare good players- that proves my arrguments well and proves that Subs are harmless in most of the times.

I didn't state that anywhere. Regardless, I also don't think thats a good reason to leave subs in the game. Any ship is harmless in the hands of a bad player. If subs are either useless if piloted by bad players, or toxic in the hands of a good player, then what reason should we have them in the game? Seems to me that both those options result in less fun for everyone involved.

 

6 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Finally you say that it is impossible to define what is is fun

No, I said that fun cannot be defined by numbers i.e. a ships performance or effectiveness. Fun IS defined by player opinion and experience, and the consensus is that they are not fun.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Well, i can share that i have seen some such people. Of cause they are rare

Of course such people are rare, because most folks hate subs, like I said.

[Shirakami_Kon]

1 hour ago, Fastmotion said:

Your argument seems to be that DDs can spot a cruiser.

Indeed. You have detection range advantadge.

 

1 hour ago, Fastmotion said:

That spotting is useless because either the cruiser was already spotted by the DD and the team couldn't have any benefit of that spotting or after the the spotting moment the spotted DD gets killed in a few seconds and many other situations. There is nothing much to do against such cruisers. Specially when you play in more advanced battle types like in the Golden Ranked league- when a 12km radar spots a DD then in most cases that DD dies and the cruiser stays safe.

And yet you still know the radar range of each cruiser, so unless you get actually ambushed by one you can just stay at the border of the radar range, bait the cruiser player into using it and get out of radar range before he even gets to aim at you, wait the few seconds the radar lasts, and you all the time of radar cooldown to still spot it. If you can't even figure that out is not that your DD doesn't allow that, it's more of a you problem.

 

1 hour ago, Fastmotion said:

Against Subs all ships cansee where the sonar ping comes fro mand send the bombs to that area. And besides that they see the oil mark on the water and other ways to handle subs. The main suggestion is toi learn to reposition immediately when one sees a Sub if you believe that your "team" usually don't help each other. If you have a helping team then you don't have to reposition.

And if you followed closely any testing youd know that oil slicks and the upcoming wake added next patch when a submarine pings marks a "nearby" area of the submarine. Nearby meaning somewhere random from 500 meters to a whole kilometer or more from the sub, none of this signals mark whenre the submarine is at all so you can reliably counterattack, it just shows the general area so sending airstrikes there is a game of lottery to see if the indicator was on spot for once or marked somewhere random a km away of the sub because reasons.

 

Edit: Here. This is a visual example how effective your visible ping lines, oil slicks and the like are. Now defend again it works.

 

 

1 hour ago, Fastmotion said:

If Subs have so mighty possibilities compared to radars, hidros and so on, then why Subs are harmlessly at the bottom of the battle results most of the times?

Because as usual the game doesn't have tutorials for new players on how to operate the class of ship they are using. In this game if you hope how to play a ship you better get by yourself the idea to go watch a stream and see what someone decent does and learn from it. And normally there's one issue with that, but it's two in the case of submarines. General issue being that not every single player wants or has time to sit and watch streams for a few days to get some tips and clues about what to do with their ship. And the extra issue with submarines is that they are so boring to play that it's rare to have streamers playing them so players can get a clue of how absolutely broken they are, and even if so (like Mr. Gibbins, he sometimes plays submarines, and quite effectively) their success comes from the expertice and situational awareness of the game out of a long experience of playing the game normally for years.

 

The submarine you usually see is your average player that can't find it's rear with both hands, just jumped into a sub but has no clue of how to work about their concealment, has 0 clue of how to position it's sub effectively and just spams pings and hopes that the enemy ship will just sit there and takes the torps and cries like you because it didn't happen.

[Fastmotion]

2 minutes ago, Stiglet3 said:

I haven't mentioned anything about just cruiser players specifically, I don't know why you keep using this example. Subs aren't fun for anyone, so thats why they should be removed.

 

 

I didn't state that anywhere. Regardless, I also don't think thats a good reason to leave subs in the game. Any ship is harmless in the hands of a bad player. If subs are either useless if piloted by bad players, or toxic in the hands of a good player, then what reason should we have them in the game? Seems to me that both those options result in less fun for everyone involved.

 

No, I said that fun cannot be defined by numbers i.e. a ships performance or effectiveness. Fun IS defined by player opinion and experience, and the consensus is that they are not fun.

 

 

Of course such people are rare, because most folks hate subs, like I said.

You said that you don't understand why i gave an example from cruisers. Well, i can give examples of all ship types. Isn't it normal that you can create a plusses and minuses listings for all ship types and ships? and i don't see any arguments against my random cruisers example. So, i the cruisers example was good and proved my point.

You say that subs are not fun for anyone. This is totally false. Firstly, do i seem like i don't like Subs? No, i don't seem to be such. So, we have proved that exists at least one person who likes Subs and you statement of "everyone hates subs" is wrong. I mentioned that i have heard some peoples who have dared to say out honestly that they love subs. Also we see thousands of sub players every day in battles. Do you think they don't enjoy it? so, we have proved 3-4 ways that you were wrong by assuming that nobody likes subs.

 

You say that Subs don't make the game more interesting in overall if most players are yet newcomers in Sub playing. Well, the answer is that give a time them to learn how to play the Subs. And meanwhile don't use the argument that Subs are somehow toxiz or overpowered.

 

You say that the consensus is that Subs are not fun. Well, i repeat then that consensus is also that the pork is bad and the word War is bad and so on. Does it mean that you agree with such opinions and avoid meat and the word War? No, you ignore such brainwashed opinions. If you can proove that the consensus is that subs are bad then why thousands of battles have Sub players in and why WG, me and some others have never heard any reasonable argument against subs. We have never heard are saw anythingthat proves that Subs are bad, never ever, not even in this topic. If it is true that the so called consensus believes that Subs are bad then what do you suggest to think about such consensus? No arguments, just a blind belief that something is bad, ea word War, or pork and subs. I don't think that such argument of consensus proves anything.

[Stiglet3]

3 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

You said that you don't understand why i gave an example from cruisers. Well, i can give examples of all ship types. Isn't it normal that you can create a plusses and minuses listings for all ship types and ships? and i don't see any arguments against my random cruisers example. So, i the cruisers example was good and proved my point.

You say that subs are not fun for anyone. This is totally false. Firstly, do i seem like i don't like Subs? No, i don't seem to be such. So, we have proved that exists at least one person who likes Subs and you statement of "everyone hates subs" is wrong. I mentioned that i have heard some peoples who have dared to say out honestly that they love subs. Also we see thousands of sub players every day in battles. Do you think they don't enjoy it? so, we have proved 3-4 ways that you were wrong by assuming that nobody likes subs.

 

You say that Subs don't make the game more interesting in overall if most players are yet newcomers in Sub playing. Well, the answer is that give a time them to learn how to play the Subs. And meanwhile don't use the argument that Subs are somehow toxiz or overpowered.

 

You say that the consensus is that Subs are not fun. Well, i repeat then that consensus is also that the pork is bad and the word War is bad and so on. Does it mean that you agree with such opinions and avoid meat and the word War? No, you ignore such brainwashed opinions. If you can proove that the consensus is that subs are bad then why thousands of battles have Sub players in and why WG, me and some others have never heard any reasonable argument against subs. We have never heard are saw anythingthat proves that Subs are bad, never ever, not even in this topic. If it is true that the so called consensus believes that Subs are bad then what do you suggest to think about such consensus? No arguments, just a blind belief that something is bad, ea word War, or pork and subs. I don't think that such argument of consensus proves anything.

The only information I could garner from this reply is that English is likely not your first language.

[SodaBubbles]

53 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

 

 

You say that Subs don't make the game more interesting in overall if most players are yet newcomers in Sub playing. Well, the answer is that give a time them to learn how to play the Subs. And meanwhile don't use the argument that Subs are somehow toxiz

 

 

Subs are completely toxic, griefing boats designed to exploit WG's recent move to monetize griefing. If you can't understand that, you shouldn't be playing this game. 

[SodaBubbles]

1 hour ago, Fastmotion said:

You said that your clan doesn't play Subs in the Navan Battles but that example doesn't prove anything. It sounds like "in our country nobody uses the word War and we all use the word military operation".

 

No, it sounds like "no one in my clan plays subs or wants to see them in the game" because they suck for gameplay. 

You're trying hard. Just stop. You've been engaged page after page, and have yet to make a cogent point. 

[HMS_Britannia]

Why are you guys continuing to feed the troll.

they will never agree with us that subs are bad for the majority of players gameplay experience, no matter how effective they are alone.

and the troll will just keep coming back with nonsensical arguments to try and justify a position held  by such a small number of players 

I think subs could be a great addition in their own convoy mode, or a mode with just subs and cvs in with a choice given to every surface ship player to choose if they want to play in that mode with them or not, but we know that won’t happen cos then they will only be the cvs, subs and bots in there and WG won’t be able to claim the “silent” majority want these things 

[Migantium_Mashum]

7 hours ago, Fastmotion said:

Your argument seems to be that what is fun for you is good. For example, for you is fun to use Hydro and that's why you like it but for DDs your Hydro is not fun and there is not much to do against it. Should DD players say that it is not fun to play against cruisers?

As a DD main Cruisers are fine because they can be countered, you can spot them outside of their Hydro or Radar range and your team can focus them to death.

You just have to take the time to learn about Hydro and Radar so you know how to counter it. Anything a DD can do can be countered and a DD's torps can be avoided. A DD cannot avoid counter when spotted unlike the Sub.

 

Subs are different, I have seen a Sub sit at a depth that allows them to spot and leaves them immune to counter, no amount of shells or depth charges hurt them.

I have seen them ping and then be in a totally different location to the ping marker when depth charges are dropped and their speed underwater is just stupid.

Those magic Torpedoes that they use can bend from any angle through the water leave the target no chance, once you have used damage control the Sub only has to ping you again and you're 'profanitied'.

I have seen 17 Depth Charge hits on a Sub that do not kill the Sub.

DD torpedoes can be avoided with Hydro and Radar Sub torpedoes cannot.

 

Plenty of more experienced players than I have shown Subs for what they are and as usual WG just ploughs on for the 'Minority'...

 

As one of the Majority I say that Subs are there for the player who probably used 'invincible mode' on all games they've ever played in the past.

 

[Fastmotion]

Appears like you all repeat the same lost arguments.

Well, i try to make a universal reply to all of you now.

 

1. If Subs are difficult to counter, everyone hates them or are other way bad then why are there thousands of Subs players every day and why are they most of the battle results at the bottom? How would you answer that? You can't answer so that "everyone hates them" because it is a fact that thousands play them every day and enjoy. You can't say that you can't counter them or you don't see their sonar ping lines like the video above tries to say- everyone sees nicely all ping lines and everything and the result is that Subs are kileld very quickly and are at the bottom of the TOP. You can't say that it is not fun to play Subs if we know that thousands found them fun and why do you expect that what is fun and cool for you is fun for others and vice versa? You can't say that thousand everyday Sub players, me, and WG are wrong or don't understand something- we understand everything and we don't see any reasonable arguments against Subs. You can't say that Subs have some too strong advantages over other ship types because all ship types have advantages and many of them are such that are very difficult to counter. And if Subs had some so strong sides then why Subs are not in TOP 3 in the results? If you try to show your clan's Naval Battles screen to prove that Subs are generally bad then that screen doesn't prove anything again because it is easy to show a screen where people play Subs as well and every day we have thousands of happy Sub players in Randoms. My eyes see in Randoms that Subs are harmless and why should i doupt in my eyes and believe what your eyes see? I doupt that your eyes see clearly but i don't mind how yours see and what is your opinion- see and believe what you want. The MM puts subs and other ship types to both teams and therefore you must be happy if your team has an advantage of overpowered ship types- use them and get a quick victory but you prefer to complain instead. Very unpolite is to complain in battles that some ship types are bad if you own team has such ship types. Even topics like this here are not polite. I made that topic more healtier here by showing the opposite arguments for you that Me, WG, and thousands share.

 

Which other argument you had in this topic? I think i answered to all of them. Usually people just don't want to accept the truth and arguments and start to repeat the old same lost arguments. For example they reply to my in other words the same argument again that "Subs are boring" instead of "Subs are not fun". Well, such replies/arguments are not valid. Or, they try something like: "your have ugly hair cut and bad grades from the highschool and your Englis is bad- so your opinion must be wrong". Well, such argument is not usable either.

 

I suggest that accept that it is healthy if people have different opinions and specially when they have so clear arguments to support those. If you believe that the word War is bad and prohibited and wrong like hundreds of millions of people believe then go and be with them but let other people use that word if they wish and specially if they don't see that your explanations are reasonable about that opinion. If you don't eat pork then don't punish those who eat, and so on. If somebody has a different opinion then don't damage them by bans and hate speach, just show your arguments to them and if they represent stronger arguments against yours then either change your mind or be civilized and let them have their opinion.

 

Wg, me, and hundreds Subs players have never ever understood your arguments about Subs and many other things. Don't damage them because they don't "understand" and be supportive about different opinions.

 

[Cammo1962]

34 minutes ago, Fastmotion said:

Appears like you all repeat the same lost arguments.

Well, i try to make a universal reply to all of you now.

 

1. If Subs are difficult to counter, everyone hates them or are other way bad then why are there thousands of Subs players every day and why are they most of the battle results at the bottom? How would you answer that? You can't answer so that "everyone hates them" because it is a fact that thousands play them every day and enjoy. You can't say that you can't counter them or you don't see their sonar ping lines like the video above tries to say- everyone sees nicely all ping lines and everything and the result is that Subs are kileld very quickly and are at the bottom of the TOP. You can't say that it is not fun to play Subs if we know that thousands found them fun and why do you expect that what is fun and cool for you is fun for others and vice versa? You can't say that thousand everyday Sub players, me, and WG are wrong or don't understand something- we understand everything and we don't see any reasonable arguments against Subs. You can't say that Subs have some too strong advantages over other ship types because all ship types have advantages and many of them are such that are very difficult to counter. And if Subs had some so strong sides then why Subs are not in TOP 3 in the results? If you try to show your clan's Naval Battles screen to prove that Subs are generally bad then that screen doesn't prove anything again because it is easy to show a screen where people play Subs as well and every day we have thousands of happy Sub players in Randoms. My eyes see in Randoms that Subs are harmless and why should i doupt in my eyes and believe what your eyes see? I doupt that your eyes see clearly but i don't mind how yours see and what is your opinion- see and believe what you want. The MM puts subs and other ship types to both teams and therefore you must be happy if your team has an advantage of overpowered ship types- use them and get a quick victory but you prefer to complain instead. Very unpolite is to complain in battles that some ship types are bad if you own team has such ship types. Even topics like this here are not polite. I made that topic more healtier here by showing the opposite arguments for you that Me, WG, and thousands share.

 

Which other argument you had in this topic? I think i answered to all of them. Usually people just don't want to accept the truth and arguments and start to repeat the old same lost arguments. For example they reply to my in other words the same argument again that "Subs are boring" instead of "Subs are not fun". Well, such replies/arguments are not valid. Or, they try something like: "your have ugly hair cut and bad grades from the highschool and your Englis is bad- so your opinion must be wrong". Well, such argument is not usable either.

 

I suggest that accept that it is healthy if people have different opinions and specially when they have so clear arguments to support those. If you believe that the word War is bad and prohibited and wrong like hundreds of millions of people believe then go and be with them but let other people use that word if they wish and specially if they don't see that your explanations are reasonable about that opinion. If you don't eat pork then don't punish those who eat, and so on. If somebody has a different opinion then don't damage them by bans and hate speach, just show your arguments to them and if they represent stronger arguments against yours then either change your mind or be civilized and let them have their opinion.

 

Wg, me, and hundreds Subs players have never ever understood your arguments about Subs and many other things. Don't damage them because they don't "understand" and be supportive about different opinions.

 

So what you are saying is that we that dont like subs in the game are all wrong regarding what we say about them (boring/not fun and dont fit in).