Are subs MORE impactful than CV's???

[SodaBubbles]

It's hard to choose which one of those idiocies is the worst. Both are extremely bad for the game. 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

The main problem with submarines and why they have more of an impact is the fact that when you have one who can't play it and another who can the team with the person who can has a significant advantage right from the start. No ship should have that power. At least with a CV someone who is terrible can still spot with their planes. 

[tocqueville8]

Imho subs *can* be more impactful, because they're a bigger distraction.

 

In most people's hands, CVs have a tough time against AA clusters, so if you're part of one you kind of just use your sector reinforcement, maybe your rudder if she goes after you, and wait for it to pass.

Subs, meanwhile, require one to pay attention to pings, double pings and torps, attempt to move behind cover, attempt to blind-fire with ASW planes (assuming the sub isn't spotted), etc.

 

Basically, you'll grin and bear the CV, because you're mostly just dealing with the planes, which is more automated. Meanwhile with subs, because they're so hard to spot and RPF doesn't work on them if they're submerged, half the team can run around for 5 minutes without finding them. But they have to try finding them, because left unaddressed they can chunk you for half your hp, mostly unrecoverable damage...

[Figment]

31 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

The spottting is NOT sufficient, since it is only effective when there are ships to take immediate action to do anything about the ship. And a short dive by the sub makes the spotting go away immediately. And unlike DDs hiding in smoke, the sub can go in ANY direction while remaining unspotted.

Presence awareness is more important than direct engagement. A sub that's spotted and has to dive cannot engage, loses situational awareness and becomes vulnerable. It allows your side to reposition, take countermeasures if needed and indeed, intercept or engage. By simply having spotted the sub and knowing its orientation, you'll be aprized of its likely targets and heading. So relocating it becomes easier. It also determines where the unit can be in a given amount of time from that initial position, making subsequent tracking much easier.

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The above two statements are contradictory! You basically say that people have to run away from subs, thus creating the gaps needed (and giving the sub the area denial it desires).

No, they are not. I didn't say run. I said reposition.

 

Avoid open water, stay closer to islands to make leading with pings and homing torps hard to impossible. Lure the sub closer. When the sub gets to within 6-8km as it can't engage from further on, you can engage when the rest of the enemy players allow for it. And with island cover that shouldn't be too much trouble.

 

I don't see how you could read "running". That's an incredibly narrow definition of repositioning.

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And it is clear that the design team is unwilling or incapable of eliminating the dolphining problem. And frankly, I am not sure it CAN actually be prevented.

Of course it can. Hard elevation rudder limitations in time, ballast tank filling and expulsion speeds and reducing depth control are some basic ways to enforce a sub's choice to sit at a certain depth long enough to not just dodge incoming fire through dolphening.

 

There's also the ASW captain skills that increase HE radius against subs, but I don't take these serious as they're too situational for anyone to consider. Those should be standard IMO and if you differentiate between depth you can hit and periscope depth / knowledge of what's happening on the surface, it should become far less useful to try and dolphin.

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The difference between a submarine and a DD is that the DD cannot disappear (dive) and pop up anywhere at will. The submarine can.

The difference is that a DD can be targeted over a full range, over longer distances by EVERY ship on the enemy team. That does NOT hold true for submarines.

Many DDs can smoke. Which is far more effective than diving from a combat pov. The popping up "anywhere" is simply not true and more dangerous than you think. Especially with the limitations on diving time (which IMO are done poorly).

 

Yes, they can be engaged differently, but the opposite is also true. A sub cannot engage targets behind any form of cover, or from any sort of barrier cover (aside from leading targets), whereas a DD can fire over islands very effectively and a DD has thus a much better engagement scope itself. Many DD can also have useful AA, which subs do not have. A DD can also fire sideways at targets and have a near 360 turret engagement, most subs can only engage targets dead ahead.

 

That's called a trade-off. They can do some things better and other things worse. That's not unheard of or unfair per definition. Subs aren't in a position to be completely untouchable and you shouldn't try to pretend they are. Again, play some to experience their limits even a little. It'll help you greatly if not just to lead the target better with depth charges (quite important).

[Shirakami_Kon]

36 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Has anyone something to comment on the unusually tight torpedo spread the subs fire as opposed to the DD's, or even CV planes?

That is BS, like pretty much anything else that has to do with subs? Not even surprised about that at this point.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

@OP 

 

short answer: no

long answer: noooooo

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Humorpalanta said:

Subs are hell and ultimate griefers and they can have a huge impact on the games. Just had a game in a Rahmat. A sub was on me. Pinged all the time. I was polling Notsers everywhere to avoid torps. That thing just made an 8 km radius area denial. And he was completely alone. A few planes were flying around but nothing else. And I couldn't do much about it. And I am lucky he was absolute garbage. If he were just a bit competent he would have raped all of that side.

 

Being the least impactful class doesn't mean they cannot be impactful at all. Subs can and will make or break matches, but they lack map control ability. You can sit below the enemy team and torp a ship every minute or so, but that doesn't help your team if they're getting overrun. Like CVs they essentially just impose a damage tax on the enemy if played correctly, but they cannot do so on a global basis unlike CVs. That gives them comparatively limited carrying ability, but again it doesn't mean they cannot carry at all.

To put things into perspective, the solo WR ceiling for surface ship is ~75% and ~85% for CVs. I'd say sub solo WR limit is around ~70%.

[Figment]

50 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Has anyone something to comment on the unusually tight torpedo spread the subs fire as opposed to the DD's, or even CV planes?

Makes them easier to dodge since you basically need to just dodge one line of torps. Tbh. Provided you didn't make the bad call to run straight at the ping location.

 

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

19 minutes ago, Figment said:

Makes them easier to dodge since you basically need to just dodge one line of torps. Tbh. Provided you didn't make the bad call to run straight at the ping location.

 

 

 

Uhm.. there is not time to do anything once you spot the torps, so the ping would have to be broken before you spot the torps. Also, while you are doing these maneuvers, the game does not stop, nor do the enemy ships stop. Way way too gimmicky for my taste these subs and the 'countermeasures' provided.

[Figment]

1 hour ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Uhm.. there is not time to do anything once you spot the torps, so the ping would have to be broken before you spot the torps. Also, while you are doing these maneuvers, the game does not stop, nor do the enemy ships stop. Way way too gimmicky for my taste these subs and the 'countermeasures' provided.

Works fine for me. Then again, I control the amount of enemies firing at me usually through positioning anyway. If there's an enemy that'd fire at you, you'd opt for the island cover rather than engage. The only place island cover doesn't work is ocean after all.

 

But generally subs will not be in your side, they'll be coming from the same direction as the rest of the enemy ships. So it's not like you're going to give broadsides all of a sudden.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Subs are likely the least impactful class currently. This is because their sole influence on the match is damage farming and pretty much nothing else. They have very little ability to control the map or provide utility. 

They provide better spotting than DD's. DD's themselves now get spotted.

But impact is measured in other ways as well. When players stop fighting just to get away from a sub, that is pretty impactful.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

3 hours ago, Figment said:

Right... Because you can't fly aircraft to them, use hydro, spot pings, accidentally come across them, have other subs do a scan, force them to take narrow routes through straights in order to engage you (while becoming easier ASW targets), notice when you and others are being spotted and triangulate / derive an approximate location and at all times, be aware of any sub having been spotted on the map at any given moment in time...

You have to spot them first. 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

2 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

The main problem with submarines and why they have more of an impact is the fact that when you have one who can't play it and another who can the team with the person who can has a significant advantage right from the start. No ship should have that power. At least with a CV someone who is terrible can still spot with their planes. 

My point all along.

[Figment]

1 hour ago, PsychoClownfish said:

You have to spot them first. 

Or educated guess based on what you'd do as a sub player and knowing its limitations and needs. ;)

[El2aZeR]

4 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

They provide better spotting than DD's. DD's themselves now get spotted.

But impact is measured in other ways as well. When players stop fighting just to get away from a sub, that is pretty impactful.

 

Kinda. It is often required of subs to dive down to max depth at which point they will cease to spot and become somewhat reliant on team spotting instead if they don't have the hydrophone consumable up.

 

Indeed, that requires your team to already have the advantage however. If your team is disadvantaged on the other hand enemy ships can essentially run away from you by rolling over your team.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

17 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

They provide better spotting than DD's. DD's themselves now get spotted.

But impact is measured in other ways as well. When players stop fighting just to get away from a sub, that is pretty impactful.

You as a sub player barely have the tools to influence the game majorly in your favor. You are to slow to always pick the exact flank you need to be on so if in the beginning of the match you choose the wrong one you can only watch as your team loses.

However as a CV you have total control over whereever you need to be usually and therefore influence exactly where it needs to be. CV is by far the more influencing class

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

1 hour ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

You as a sub player barely have the tools to influence the game majorly in your favor. You are to slow to always pick the exact flank you need to be on so if in the beginning of the match you choose the wrong one you can only watch as your team loses.

However as a CV you have total control over whereever you need to be usually and therefore influence exactly where it needs to be. CV is by far the more influencing class

All your arguments are valid and I agree with them. But they're not the whole story. I'm not going to go into it all over again, suffice it to say subs have unique and way OP abilities that make them extremely impactful (certainly more than any class except CV's). I'm not saying they're more impactful than CV's, I'm merely raising the question.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

17 hours ago, Figment said:

Or educated guess based on what you'd do as a sub player and knowing its limitations and needs. ;)

Well, without wanting to be too sarcastic, apparently you have prescient skills that no superunicum has in this regard. Because they get ambushed and surprised all the time.

[The_Angry_Admiral]

2 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

You as a sub player barely have the tools to influence the game majorly in your favor. You are to slow to always pick the exact flank you need to be on so if in the beginning of the match you choose the wrong one you can only watch as your team loses.

However as a CV you have total control over whereever you need to be usually and therefore influence exactly where it needs to be. CV is by far the more influencing class

Submarine players have complete control and those that don't lack a real understanding of what they are capable of in the ship. A submarine has the ability to come up to you undetected and dev strike you with the only warning being those rocket pings and the torp train that is headed your way. Against CV planes all you have to do is stick close to two other ships and your combined AA will take them out. Also you know exactly where planes are but with a sub you always don't which has been proved by Flamu. CV's can also begin to run out of planes while a sub player with half a brain can keep his energy reserves going almost the entire game. 

 

You could say "well any ship in the hands of a good player" blah blah blah but with submarines you get game breaking results. 

[ross1193]

Yes: Period

[ColonelPete]

43 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

You could say "well any ship in the hands of a good player" blah blah blah but with submarines you get game breaking results. 

And still stay scale less well with skill than CV...

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Submarine players have complete control and those that don't lack a real understanding of what they are capable of in the ship. A submarine has the ability to come up to you undetected and dev strike you with the only warning being those rocket pings and the torp train that is headed your way. Against CV planes all you have to do is stick close to two other ships and your combined AA will take them out. Also you know exactly where planes are but with a sub you always don't which has been proved by Flamu. CV's can also begin to run out of planes while a sub player with half a brain can keep his energy reserves going almost the entire game. 

 

You could say "well any ship in the hands of a good player" blah blah blah but with submarines you get game breaking results. 

You are trying too hard now. At this point most users on this forum know that all you do is parroting. Come up with an opinion informed by your own experience before spouting nonsense you barely understand 

[Panocek]

2 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Submarine players have complete control and those that don't lack a real understanding of what they are capable of in the ship. A submarine has the ability to come up to you undetected and dev strike you with the only warning being those rocket pings and the torp train that is headed your way. Against CV planes all you have to do is stick close to two other ships and your combined AA will take them out. Also you know exactly where planes are but with a sub you always don't which has been proved by Flamu. CV's can also begin to run out of planes while a sub player with half a brain can keep his energy reserves going almost the entire game. 

 

You could say "well any ship in the hands of a good player" blah blah blah but with submarines you get game breaking results. 

Which explains why you have average damage of a SINGLE torpedo hit... oh wait

[The_Angry_Admiral]

3 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

You are trying too hard now. At this point most users on this forum know that all you do is parroting. Come up with an opinion informed by your own experience before spouting nonsense you barely understand 

*yawns* So in other words you have absolutely no evidence to dispute what I have said. 

 

Well done.

[Andrewbassg]

8 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

However as a CV you have total control over whereever you need to be usually and therefore influence exactly where it needs to be. CV is by far the more influencing class

Wazz happened with the "Cv's are not OP", "just dodge", "they don't do much dmg" "poor little things", "oh my precious" and alike?They were pushed for years, right? Now its the turn for the subs?

 

Yo...

 

Tho you are correct and also mostly not. While Cv's exert their influence on a arguably strategic scale, subs do that with equal success on the tactical scale, in virtue of their possibilities. Just like Cv's..