Are subs MORE impactful than CV's???

[Nibenay78]

3 hours ago, Siagor said:

I play aggressively, almost exclusively Cruisers with ~90, even 97 AA Defense. Airplanes are my fodder.

While subs irritate.

You must play different cruisers than I have. Its not unusual to get pissed on by the CV in most (so called) AA ships..

[Dutchy_2019]

11 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

All of this is clearly accurate, and then moreover there is the spotting...

And yet. I think - but it's just a feeling - that a lot of players become ineffective when they know a sub is around, whereas most of us can more or less deal with a CV strike, or at the very least just keep fighting as best we can. A decent subplayer kind of paralyzes the players around him. Not everyone of course, but enough to have an effect.

Again, this is all just speculation. I'm just trying to explain a phenomenon that IS absolutely quantifiable, ie good against bad subdrivers in the scorelist.

 

As subs can get ANYWHERE unseen, and with the atrocious way ASW mechanics are designed, a sub will almost always affect the enemy team by paralyzing multiple enemies at the same time, or drawing resources away to the extent that a DD rarely will, and a CV NEVER will. And while multiple ships are engaging that single submarine, they cannot engage the enemy, often end up completely out of position, making them vulnerable to the enemy, if not offering them free citadels outright. Again, things that a CV rarely if ever is able to do.

 

The problem is that - unlike with CV's - WG is introducing the 'pop-up-in-the-enemy-spawn-April-fool's-thingy' permanently into the game. And that should be a MASSIVE no-no.

[Cammo1962]

13 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Vulnerable to the CV, not to everyone else.

If letting a BB with 500 HP get away is good for battle influence, is questionable.

That BB would be out of the battle and have no influence of the battle any more. So a sub doing that is not a bad thing i have done the same in a DD where i left a BBd with 1000 health and he ran as fare away as he could.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

15 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

So I've noticed that if there are subs in a given game, and one team has a driver in it who is at least adept, and the other team has an ape with no hands as the subdriver, that correlates very strongly with the odds of the former team winning. Whenever I get steamrolled in a game with a sub, that sub is at the absolute bottom of the scorelist, and the opponents subplayer did well.

I don't have definitive proof yet but I am saving screenshots, and I would like you all to be on the look-out for this. Because it would prove how OP these ships are once driven by a player with even a asic grasp of their gameplay.

Not even close imho. Sure they are pretty hard to counter sometimes and they are a pest just like CVs but they still have to take risks and if caught out they will most likely die fast. They also have a battery that runs out which is nothing CVs ever have to contempt with. They have NO LIMITS to their aircrafts, their range, their ability to be effective all over the map and with new ridiculous supersonic Jet planes (because that was apparently a thing in WW2....) they can strike anything anywhere within seconds.

 

So sure .... it sux that subs are in the game and it makes the game more passive and boring by the minute, and WG has proven yet again they force new stupid mechanics into the game with zero skills to balance it, but CVs are still 1000 % worse.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

19 minutes ago, Cammo1962 said:

That BB would be out of the battle and have no influence of the battle any more. So a sub doing that is not a bad thing i have done the same in a DD where i left a BBd with 1000 health and he ran as fare away as he could.

 

This is, IMO, a vexed issue. This game has certain gameplay features that complicate the tactical side of things unnecessarily. First, we have the concept of 'kill stealing' which is idiotic.... then we have the fact that ships that can only marginally be crippled in combat and the loss of HP does not have any detrimental effect per se, only in the sense that it makes the ship more vulnerable to incoming fire which, I suppose, counts for something. The BB's, however, have the healing ability that will allow them at times regain significant amounts of hps if they are not sunk when there is a chance to do it.

 

Conventional wisdom would say, crippling an enemy ship and forcing it to retreat means it's not going to have any impact on the course of the battle and is a good outcome if you haven't been able to sink it outright. This just does not work in WoWS....

[Figment]

16 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

So I've noticed that if there are subs in a given game, and one team has a driver in it who is at least adept, and the other team has an ape with no hands as the subdriver, that correlates very strongly with the odds of the former team winning. Whenever I get steamrolled in a game with a sub, that sub is at the absolute bottom of the scorelist, and the opponents subplayer did well.

I don't have definitive proof yet but I am saving screenshots, and I would like you all to be on the look-out for this. Because it would prove how OP these ships are once driven by a player with even a asic grasp of their gameplay.

No. It has more to do with the will of the team on the losing side to engage subs properly. If they hang back, the sub on your team gets slaughtered without support, while the other sub gets the freedom to break through the middle of the map and get into open waters on your side.

[ColonelPete]

53 minutes ago, Cammo1962 said:

That BB would be out of the battle and have no influence of the battle any more. So a sub doing that is not a bad thing i have done the same in a DD where i left a BBd with 1000 health and he ran as fare away as he could.

But that is not the case. The BB is temporarily out of battle.

Depending on the situation, the BB rejoins the fight after one or more heals.

As I said, I have seen battles were ships like these dominated the match.

 

 

[Figment]

4 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

As subs can get ANYWHERE unseen,

Actually, that's not the case. Subs are very limited in where they can go and actually have an impact due to their lack of maneuvrability, speed and fear of being detected in an overextended position. They require more backup than you think.

Quote

and with the atrocious way ASW mechanics are designed,

Air strike ASW does not make players do other things differently, it's more like a free extra attack on an additional target.

Quote

a sub will almost always affect the enemy team by paralyzing multiple enemies at the same time, or drawing resources away to the extent that a DD rarely will, and a CV NEVER will.

More likely a sub forces some ships to change pathing to a bit more conservative route, it doesn't do much more. It's not good at area denial, like a DD and sure you'll see some people react instinctively out of fear through ignorance, but that's their own choice to get handicapped.

Quote

And while multiple ships are engaging that single submarine, they cannot engage the enemy, often end up completely out of position, making them vulnerable to the enemy, if not offering them free citadels outright. Again, things that a CV rarely if ever is able to do.

BBs and cruisers can often engage subs without straying from their own jobs when it comes to air strikes. The irony is that ships with actual ASW capacity on board get no air strikes and therefore do have to go out of their way and take additional risks.

Quote

The problem is that - unlike with CV's - WG is introducing the 'pop-up-in-the-enemy-spawn-April-fool's-thingy' permanently into the game. And that should be a MASSIVE no-no.

They don't just pop up there. If they get there you let them by your team allowing a section of the map to be broken through. Other subs, CVs, cruisers and DDs can plug these holes.

 

Even on Ocean, those subs don't just teleport anywhere or can engage anywhere without severe risk to themselves if they get exposed. When a sub is detected, it's likely within secondary range of enemies, so it can't just disengage like say a gunship DD. It can dive, but that doesn't make it teleport to the other side of the map, while yielding control and even knowledge of events on the surface. When it comes back up after being detected, it's likely within spitting distance of multiple enemy ships, making it extra vulnerable since the only defense it has is its position not being known.

 

That's not to say I'm happy with the way things are and the mechanics WG chose to implement and the way in which they implemented the ones that are somewhat reasonable, but your post above is pure speculation based on receiving end information.

 

 

Your profile suggests you've not played a single match in subs. Maybe try it some time to get an idea of what they can and cannot do before you state "Truths". Basically I think you've got observer bias, combined with a highly imaginative and prejudiced extrapolation, which may seem logical under your assumptions, but it's not true in practice. :/

 

 

When playing subs myself, I've found that the fast majority of actual engagements for the average gameplay of a sub is between submarines somewhere in the middle of the map. Even if you win that engagement (which can be lengthy and frustrating), you'll either get help from your team or get teamed up on by your enemy. This makes it a very hit and miss, all or nothing experience.

 

Any sub that pops up in your spawn will be overextended and die a swift death from everyone pouncing it. As such, you'll be more likely to seek the edges of battle and stay near the protection of your cruisers and DDs in case you run into an enemy DD, or get spotted by a CV.

 

If you don't, your team will leave you out to fend for yourself, which likely means you'll die. This severely limits the possible routes of engagement to similar positions as DDs, with more limited strafing and relocation abilities in comparison. It can scout behind enemy lines better than it is likely to engage. If however, a flank is completely left open for a sub to break through into the open seas behind the enemy, it can have a devastating scouting impact and if it's lucky, it might hit some targets too (which is actually harder than you'd think because your spread is likely narrower and if you ping  often times the torps don't go where you think they'll go and you get no indication of trajectory, so it's sometimes hard to guess whether it will hit rocks or not). With the ping mechanics as they were, damagewise if you do hit could be a lot, or could be shrugged off.

 

Subs, unlike CVs, BBs, cruisers and DDs, aren't great in ranked battles, because they can't dominate over distances very well. They can't jump in to support targets far away. They need close range engagement, even if that's where they're most fragile. They're not good at capturing areas and doing so gives away your position in a harder to mitigate way than for DDs, since DDs can change course relatively quickly, while subs remain  relatively predictable.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

Actually, that's not the case. Subs are very limited in where they can go and actually have an impact due to their lack of maneuvrability, speed and fear of being detected in an overextended position. They require more backup than you think.

Sorry but: bullsh1t. I've been ambushed too many times to have any doubts about how easy it is for a minimally skilled subdriver to go where he wants undetected, and if you don't believe me, watch any video from any of the topplayers who stream. Also, they outturn any DD, they are basically just as fast and: 'fear of being detected??' wtf?

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

Raging Canadian came to the same conclusion that I have:

 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

2 hours ago, Figment said:

No. It has more to do with the will of the team on the losing side to engage subs properly. If they hang back, the sub on your team gets slaughtered without support, while the other sub gets the freedom to break through the middle of the map and get into open waters on your side.

You can only engage subs if they screw up.

[Cammo1962]

3 hours ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

 

This is, IMO, a vexed issue. This game has certain gameplay features that complicate the tactical side of things unnecessarily. First, we have the concept of 'kill stealing' which is idiotic.... then we have the fact that ships that can only marginally be crippled in combat and the loss of HP does not have any detrimental effect per se, only in the sense that it makes the ship more vulnerable to incoming fire which, I suppose, counts for something. The BB's, however, have the healing ability that will allow them at times regain significant amounts of hps if they are not sunk when there is a chance to do it.

 

Conventional wisdom would say, crippling an enemy ship and forcing it to retreat means it's not going to have any impact on the course of the battle and is a good outcome if you haven't been able to sink it outright. This just does not work in WoWS....

They will have a more hard time to have some impact otherwise i do agree 

[Figment]

21 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

You can only engage subs if they screw up.

Right... Because you can't fly aircraft to them, use hydro, spot pings, accidentally come across them, have other subs do a scan, force them to take narrow routes through straights in order to engage you (while becoming easier ASW targets), notice when you and others are being spotted and triangulate / derive an approximate location and at all times, be aware of any sub having been spotted on the map at any given moment in time... That includes whether there's a sub on the other side of the map, because this provides you with intel on whether it's save to do specific actions. If a sub has gone missing and hasn't engaged anyone, it's likely somewhere with few friendlies, possibly trying to break through. So that too gives you information. Talk to your allies. See if they've been pinged and from what direction... I mean... What is it you do to detect subs and keep their threat in check? Doesn't sound like you do a whole lot since you're apparently not busy with locating them till they ambush you? 

 

 

You're right. YOU can only engage subs if THEY screw up, after YOU screwed up first.

[Figment]

 

22 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Sorry but: bullsh1t. I've been ambushed too many times to have any doubts about how easy it is for a minimally skilled subdriver to go where he wants undetected, and if you don't believe me, watch any video from any of the topplayers who stream. Also, they outturn any DD, they are basically just as fast and: 'fear of being detected??' wtf?

lol. Likely you were ambushed due to your own lack of awareness and consideration, because I don't share your experience, at all. Subs are a mildy irritation at best, free food most of the time. Getting ambushed means you really screwed up as a team and yourself.

 

If you havn't played subs yourself much, if barely at all, then it's no surprise you don't know what to do, what to look for, or how threatening it is. In fact, being scared of subs rather than dealing with subs can lead you to do the things that make subs a threat to you.

 

Watching skilled player videos is not representative of how to play and they're definitely not representative of fights against average sub players. First of all many share what they want you to see to protect their image. Some have an agenda to show off "OP". These people will not always share their bad results. On top of that, a good player will perform better anyway. And since it is likely they face people like yourself in a relatively new threat to those people, they'll perform better. There's a lot of people who proclaim there's no counterplay and therefore put no effort into developing their skills in counterplay against subs. I've seen people do the exact opposite of what you'd want to do when facing a sub and yeah, those can die quickly. But is that representative, or just noobs being noobs?

[Cammo1962]

2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

But that is not the case. The BB is temporarily out of battle.

Depending on the situation, the BB rejoins the fight after one or more heals.

As I said, I have seen battles were ships like these dominated the match.

 

 

Well if the torps dont give any flooding there is not much to heal and i have done a lot of torp hits without flooding and that means there is not much to heal, it´s the same like being hit by AP shells there is only so little you can when hit by them.

[El2aZeR]

Subs are likely the least impactful class currently. This is because their sole influence on the match is damage farming and pretty much nothing else. They have very little ability to control the map or provide utility. In fact currently the most match influencing part of subs is the gigantic skill gap between average and skilled sub players.

 

Subs are however the superior griefing class precisely because they have little influence on the match. A good CV player will typically at least win the match for their team, meanwhile a good sub player exists for no other purpose than to make the enemy miserable while doing very little for their teammates, in extension making them miserable as well.

 

24 minutes ago, Figment said:

If you havn't played subs yourself much, if barely at all, then it's no surprise you don't know what to do, what to look for, or how threatening it is. In fact, being scared of subs rather than dealing with subs can lead you to do the things that make subs a threat to you.

 

A rather funny statement from someone who has barely played subs.

[Miscommunication_dept]

Not even close.

 

Possibly more impactful then DDs but I'm not sure of that.

 

[Humorpalanta]

18 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Subs are likely the least impactful class currently. This is because their sole influence on the match is damage farming and pretty much nothing else. They have very little ability to control the map or provide utility. In fact currently the most match influencing part of subs is the gigantic skill gap between average and skilled sub players.

 

Subs are however the superior griefing class precisely because they have little influence on the match. A good CV player will typically at least win the match for their team, meanwhile a good sub player exists for no other purpose than to make the enemy miserable while doing very little for their teammates, in extension making them miserable as well.

I think the two parts of your comment are a bit contradictory. I always respect your opinion on CVs and 99% I agree with you but here I have to make an exception.

 

Subs are hell and ultimate griefers and they can have a huge impact on the games. Just had a game in a Rahmat. A sub was on me. Pinged all the time. I was polling Notsers everywhere to avoid torps. That thing just made an 8 km radius area denial. And he was completely alone. A few planes were flying around but nothing else. And I couldn't do much about it. And I am lucky he was absolute garbage. If he were just a bit competent he would have raped all of that side.

 

Also don't forget. Subs can just swim under your whole fleet to capture caps on the other side. Even if the rest of the team is cornered. Not even CVs can do that. A team could spend 20 minutes in a corner and still win by their sub capping. Crazy.

[Dutchy_2019]

2 hours ago, Figment said:

Actually, that's not the case. Subs are very limited in where they can go and actually have an impact due to their lack of maneuvrability, speed and fear of being detected in an overextended position. They require more backup than you think.

Air strike ASW does not make players do other things differently, it's more like a free extra attack on an additional target.

 

When having to air strike subs, while aiming (itself quite clunky), your ship is still moving, and your turrets rotate. Which means you have to either lock / unlock turrets (prone to fatfingering and mishaps), or spend time to rotate back. O yeah, and that assumes you actually can get a strike off, rather than finding out your range is too short. And with the old rectangular strike, you actually had to turn your ship to get the most effective strike off.

It becomes even more fun when you have to do the ASW stuff while engaged with (multiple) enemy ships.

 

2 hours ago, Figment said:

More likely a sub forces some ships to change pathing to a bit more conservative route, it doesn't do much more. It's not good at area denial, like a DD and sure you'll see some people react instinctively out of fear through ignorance, but that's their own choice to get handicapped.

BBs and cruisers can often engage subs without straying from their own jobs when it comes to air strikes. The irony is that ships with actual ASW capacity on board get no air strikes and therefore do have to go out of their way and take additional risks.

They don't just pop up there. If they get there you let them by your team allowing a section of the map to be broken through. Other subs, CVs, cruisers and DDs can plug these holes.

 

Oooh - wait. But subs have extremely low detection, and AS THEY TAKE DD slots, the chances of them getting by unseen or in a position where NO DD will ever get unseen are much bigger.

CV can only plug the hole by spotting, not by targeting the sub.

Cruiser is dead - either by sub-torps, or being spotted by the sub and shot to pieces by the enemy.

Whenever they might get detected, submerge, and unless you are unlucky enough to actually run into the enemy sub or an accidental hydro, you are actually fine to go.

And yeah - all the arguments you use to say that subs cannot easily get into the enemy spawn / unforseen positions assume that the team consists of capable players.

What is the reality - people blob (or at least congregate) providing the gaps needed to go through even without diving.

 

2 hours ago, Figment said:

 

Even on Ocean, those subs don't just teleport anywhere or can engage anywhere without severe risk to themselves if they get exposed. When a sub is detected, it's likely within secondary range of enemies, so it can't just disengage like say a gunship DD. It can dive, but that doesn't make it teleport to the other side of the map, while yielding control and even knowledge of events on the surface. When it comes back up after being detected, it's likely within spitting distance of multiple enemy ships, making it extra vulnerable since the only defense it has is its position not being known.

 

Dive and maneuver enough (even effectively 'through' the enemy ships (diving underneath them)) and most of the ASW is useless.

Hell, even no-dive-juice-subs can still dolphin and maneuver enough to (a) avoid getting hit by more than one salvo, (b) dodge most incoming ASW damage, and (b) appear at a point where they can torp you again (sometimes at an unexpected angle).

 

2 hours ago, Figment said:

 

That's not to say I'm happy with the way things are and the mechanics WG chose to implement and the way in which they implemented the ones that are somewhat reasonable, but your post above is pure speculation based on receiving end information.

 

 

Your profile suggests you've not played a single match in subs. Maybe try it some time to get an idea of what they can and cannot do before you state "Truths". Basically I think you've got observer bias, combined with a highly imaginative and prejudiced extrapolation, which may seem logical under your assumptions, but it's not true in practice. :/

 

 

I have indeed not played submarines. 

Whatever time I have to spend in this game, I would like to spend doing other stuff (like doing missions, or you know, grinding Tech Tree lines and improving my play in surface ships). 

I have played against them, and I have seen enough capable and reasonable players struggle against them, and seeing the fun in playing the game being out of them. 

 

2 hours ago, Figment said:

When playing subs myself, I've found that the fast majority of actual engagements for the average gameplay of a sub is between submarines somewhere in the middle of the map. Even if you win that engagement (which can be lengthy and frustrating), you'll either get help from your team or get teamed up on by your enemy. This makes it a very hit and miss, all or nothing experience.

 

Any sub that pops up in your spawn will be overextended and die a swift death from everyone pouncing it. As such, you'll be more likely to seek the edges of battle and stay near the protection of your cruisers and DDs in case you run into an enemy DD, or get spotted by a CV.

 

If you don't, your team will leave you out to fend for yourself, which likely means you'll die. This severely limits the possible routes of engagement to similar positions as DDs, with more limited strafing and relocation abilities in comparison. It can scout behind enemy lines better than it is likely to engage. If however, a flank is completely left open for a sub to break through into the open seas behind the enemy, it can have a devastating scouting impact and if it's lucky, it might hit some targets too (which is actually harder than you'd think because your spread is likely narrower and if you ping  often times the torps don't go where you think they'll go and you get no indication of trajectory, so it's sometimes hard to guess whether it will hit rocks or not). With the ping mechanics as they were, damagewise if you do hit could be a lot, or could be shrugged off.

 

Subs, unlike CVs, BBs, cruisers and DDs, aren't great in ranked battles, because they can't dominate over distances very well. They can't jump in to support targets far away. They need close range engagement, even if that's where they're most fragile. They're not good at capturing areas and doing so gives away your position in a harder to mitigate way than for DDs, since DDs can change course relatively quickly, while subs remain  relatively predictable.

 

Yeah, but the time it takes to kill that sub in your spawn - if even half efficiently played - and the manoeuvering it forces upon the team can cause your team to lose, simply because you lose position/cannot focus the enemy, or support your own DDs as you are dealing with the submarine.

[Figment]

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

When having to air strike subs, while aiming (itself quite clunky), your ship is still moving, and your turrets rotate. Which means you have to either lock / unlock turrets (prone to fatfingering and mishaps), or spend time to rotate back. O yeah, and that assumes you actually can get a strike off, rather than finding out your range is too short. And with the old rectangular strike, you actually had to turn your ship to get the most effective strike off.

It becomes even more fun when you have to do the ASW stuff while engaged with (multiple) enemy ships.

I'd advice using the map for range (circle). I agree that it's stupid that changing to ASW rotates turrets. It'd be a major improvement if those would be locked to the last position you aimed at actively. :/

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Oooh - wait. But subs have extremely low detection, and AS THEY TAKE DD slots, the chances of them getting by unseen or in a position where NO DD will ever get unseen are much bigger.

CV can only plug the hole by spotting, not by targeting the sub.

Agree, that's a MM issue. There should be fewer BB slots, IMO, or subs should be extras.

Rockets actually work as HE (not sure about German CVs). But the spotting suffices, tbh.

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Cruiser is dead - either by sub-torps, or being spotted by the sub and shot to pieces by the enemy.

No, cruiser should be repositioning from the moment it is know the sub is on its flank.

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Whenever they might get detected, submerge, and unless you are unlucky enough to actually run into the enemy sub or an accidental hydro, you are actually fine to go.

And yeah - all the arguments you use to say that subs cannot easily get into the enemy spawn / unforseen positions assume that the team consists of capable players.

What is the reality - people blob (or at least congregate) providing the gaps needed to go through even without diving.

Well yes, my point exactly. This isn't for once down to the design of the sub by WG, but people not knowing how to play well (especially when faced with relatively new threats you barely encounter during your matches. Most people don't interact with the subs directly during a match after all, so can't learn well either). :/

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Dive and maneuver enough (even effectively 'through' the enemy ships (diving underneath them)) and most of the ASW is useless.

Hell, even no-dive-juice-subs can still dolphin and maneuver enough to (a) avoid getting hit by more than one salvo, (b) dodge most incoming ASW damage, and (b) appear at a point where they can torp you again (sometimes at an unexpected angle).

Dolphing is a design issue. Quite annoying one too since it's been known for so long.

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

I have indeed not played submarines. 

Whatever time I have to spend in this game, I would like to spend doing other stuff (like doing missions, or you know, grinding Tech Tree lines and improving my play in surface ships). 

I have played against them, and I have seen enough capable and reasonable players struggle against them, and seeing the fun in playing the game being out of them.

You don't need to play them often. Just some basics will give you insights. It's highly recommended to know thy enemy. ;)

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Yeah, but the time it takes to kill that sub in your spawn - if even half efficiently played - and the manoeuvering it forces upon the team can cause your team to lose, simply because you lose position/cannot focus the enemy, or support your own DDs as you are dealing with the submarine.

That goes for a DD that broke through (and for instance solo caps the HQ area) as well though. Honestly, bad teams don't need designed help. They need to get their act together.

[Dutchy_2019]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

Right... Because you can't fly aircraft to them, use hydro, spot pings, accidentally come across them, have other subs do a scan, force them to take narrow routes through straights in order to engage you (while becoming easier ASW targets), notice when you and others are being spotted and triangulate / derive an approximate location and at all times, be aware of any sub having been spotted on the map at any given moment in time... That includes whether there's a sub on the other side of the map, because this provides you with intel on whether it's save to do specific actions. If a sub has gone missing and hasn't engaged anyone, it's likely somewhere with few friendlies, possibly trying to break through. So that too gives you information. Talk to your allies. See if they've been pinged and from what direction... I mean... What is it you do to detect subs and keep their threat in check? Doesn't sound like you do a whole lot since you're apparently not busy with locating them till they ambush you? 

 

 

You're right. YOU can only engage subs if THEY screw up, after YOU screwed up first.

 

Again - most of this is ideal situation, not the reality of actual play.

 

• Aircraft; assumes there is a CV in the game, and he is on your flank, and even then the chance of him catching the sub is neglible; the only times I have seen CVs go sub-spotting is when either (a) there was nothing else to do, or (b) the CV itself was threatened by the sub. And even then, most of the time they did not do even that, because why bother, as you cannot do ANYTHING to target the sub itself, and you are immune to homing torps anyway (because of CVs being coddled by their DCP lasting forever AND being automatic).
• Most ships (including DDs) do NOT have hydro; so useless. Also, hydro is also used to defend yourself and your team-mates against other incoming torps.
• Spot pings. Since subs can ping in pretty much any direction, the ping only gives an approximate location at best, and takes time to you to get there, not as useful as you think. Barely of better use than incoming torpedoes telling you where the DD roughly is - especially if the sub is NOT a continuous pinger.
• Accidentally coming across them: how great are the chances of that happening, especially in a position where YOU have the initiative?
• Again: extremely reliant on someone else, and his or her skill level.

And it is nice you talk about communicating in the team, which assumes two things:

• That people are actually capable of high speed blind typing, especially when engaged already with other ships
• People being able to read / write the typed language
• People willing to read chat

Rarely if ever happpens outside playing in a div with voice com. 

 

 

 

[Dutchy_2019]

6 minutes ago, Figment said:

I'd advice using the map for range (circle). I agree that it's stupid that changing to ASW rotates turrets. It'd be a major improvement if those would be locked to the last position you aimed at actively. :/

Agree, that's a MM issue. There should be fewer BB slots, IMO, or subs should be extras.

Rockets actually work as HE (not sure about German CVs). But the spotting suffices, tbh.

 

The spottting is NOT sufficient, since it is only effective when there are ships to take immediate action to do anything about the ship. And a short dive by the sub makes the spotting go away immediately. And unlike DDs hiding in smoke, the sub can go in ANY direction while remaining unspotted.

 

Quote

No, cruiser should be repositioning from the moment it is know the sub is on its flank.

Well yes, my point exactly. This isn't for once down to the design of the sub by WG, but people not knowing how to play well (especially when faced with relatively new threats you barely encounter during your matches. Most people don't interact with the subs directly during a match after all, so can't learn well either). 

 

The above two statements are contradictory! You basically say that people have to run away from subs, thus creating the gaps needed (and giving the sub the area denial it desires).

 

Quote

Dolphing is a design issue. Quite annoying one too since it's been known for so long.

You don't need to play them often. Just some basics will give you insights. It's highly recommended to know thy enemy. ;)

That goes for a DD that broke through (and for instance solo caps the HQ area) as well though. Honestly, bad teams don't need designed help. They need to get their act together.

 

And it is clear that the design team is unwilling or incapable of eliminating the dolphining problem. And frankly, I am not sure it CAN actually be prevented.

 

The difference between a submarine and a DD is that the DD cannot disappear (dive) and pop up anywhere at will. The submarine can.

The difference is that a DD can be targeted over a full range, over longer distances by EVERY ship on the enemy team. That does NOT hold true for submarines.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Has anyone something to comment on the unusually tight torpedo spread the subs fire as opposed to the DD's, or even CV planes?

[Dutchy_2019]

3 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Has anyone something to comment on the unusually tight torpedo spread the subs fire as opposed to the DD's, or even CV planes?

 

Not yet, but again, one of the stupid design things.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Just now, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Not yet, but again, one of the stupid design things.

 

Now that's what I would call a lovely comment.