My feedback and improvement idea's on submarines

[SodaBubbles]

4 hours ago, Karakzorn said:

huh, my long time world of warship friends who got me into this game warned me that the community was filled with heavy gatekeepers but I never realised it was this bad until now.

 

Oh please. These ideas have been beaten to death.

You strange stats, 77 batttles but 70% win rate, suggest you are a re-roll account engaging in trolling. The last line of your post seems to confirm that.

[Karakzorn]

1 minute ago, EgyptOverseer said:

It's not your fault that WG is purposefully making the game hard to understand and make you believe that by rushing to T10 you will instantly be a good player.

I never said I was a good player, I just asked around people who have much more experience in the game than I do, and they tell me that if I want to play the game for the subs, I'd better put the game down. so thats what I'm going to do, I fully understand if you want to play the game, I tried playing some battleship as well, its very easy and very rewarding, its easy to get high damage numbers and having a lot of HP you're basically meant to carry the team, thats great, but I don't like it when I play sub even on the low tiers, try my best, get rushed by a few ships and then chase me for eternity and I cant evade them due to my low speed. Like I said, its okay if you like world of warships, I just stopped by the try the new interesting vehicle, but in this state it doesn't feel as impactful or rewarding.

[Verblonde]

11 minutes ago, Karakzorn said:

but is there anyone on this forum who can actually explain to me how I am supposed to play

There is an abundance, if you're interested in the 'proper' ships in the game (and even CVs too); as @EgyptOverseer points out, the submarines are experimental, so there isn't solid guidance yet, because the damn things aren't fixed yet.

 

13 minutes ago, Karakzorn said:

I dont understand the community outrage

Really? WOWS was an excellent game; sure, there are a few more controversial areas (mostly involving CVs), but it basically worked and was fun to play on both sides. Submarines are being added in a way that makes a game that many have invested a lot of time (and money, in some cases) in significantly less fun to play, and roughshod over the objections of many. 'Outrage' is - if anything - a bit of an under-reaction...

[COPlUM]

It's not complicated, if a normal player plays submarines, they're fine, even in their current form. Against a submarine player who knows what he's doing you have 2 options :
1) Die and lose
2) Spend 7 minutes sailing to the other flank so you can play the videogame a bit before you die and lose

There is no counter to well played submarines, none, you can have the sweatiest unicum 3 man div, they have 2 options, the ones I mentioned.

You can't spot them, you can't radar them, you can't hydro them, you can't plane-spot them, they decide when you are lit, every time they surface, you are lit, you get farmed, if you dare shoot anyone while getting farmed, you're lit longer, so you just sit there and die. If they're abusing the bug, they don't even need to surface to keep you lit. There is genuinely nothing you can do against them, the mechanics to do something against them simply are not implemented. Even if by some miracle you find yourself right on top of it, it takes 10 minutes of depth charges to kill it, if by some miracle it's stupid and got itself hard spotted while surfaced, you can't shoot it from long range either, it dives in the time it takes for your shells to land. They are for all intents and purposes immortal, if played correctly.

[SkollUlfr]

5 minutes ago, COPlUM said:

It's not complicated, if a normal player plays submarines, they're fine, even in their current form. Against a submarine player who knows what he's doing you have 2 options :
1) Die and lose
2) Spend 7 minutes sailing to the other flank so you can play the videogame a bit before you die and lose

There is no counter to well played submarines, none, you can have the sweatiest unicum 3 man div, they have 2 options, the ones I mentioned.

these mechanics are too complicated.

clearly subs need supercavitating nuclear torps so there's no need to lead a target, and they hit even if they miss.

[ghostbuster_]

13 hours ago, Karakzorn said:

huh, my long time world of warship friends who got me into this game warned me that the community was filled with heavy gatekeepers but I never realised it was this bad until now.

so, you are indeed new. dont you think its a bit early to make such comments? Did it ever cross your mind that these "gatekeepers" are maybe just experienced players who actually knows how the game works and judge you comments according to their experience? 

[Seraphice]

Hey!

There's a lot of stuff to digest here, so I will try to cover most of the points here.

Submarines are topic alright. I don't think anyone will deny this, and even now they are still not ready. We need to continue working on them for now, and see how the announced changed affect them.
The latest round introduces a lot of changes in terms of counterplay and some commander skill improvements for subs.

Looking at their earlier stages and looking at them now, a lot has changed. We will take things into account from all the perspectives given here, but it is important to understand some things, especially with regards to the original post here:

Submarines were already heavily tuned in the points mentioned. They already got some very significant speed buffs, homing was reduced quite severely and their dive capacity (or oxygen at the time) was reduced quite severely as well.
Again I need to mention - This does not mean they are perfect now, but it is important to understand the changes already made in the past, and why they were made.

Changes to their speed was for gameplay comfort on submarine's end, changes to their dive capacity and homing to increase the amount of counterplay available on the side of surface ships.

Now we will need to see how things change with the upcoming patch.

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[lovelacebeer]

Whilst I do greatly disagree with the OPs overall take from what submarines need, I can understand very new players are not used to a lot of the aspects of the game that is older player are used too. 
 

I would imagine a lot of brand new players would struggle with the Japanese torpedo boat DDs.
 

So I don’t want to be unkind to him directly, still my take away from the latest round of the PTS experience plus the aspects Seraphase raised in his reply I would say:
 

Dive capacity as a sub is quite good maybe a bit generous but that’s ok it’s not always easy to manage, but you have plenty of times when you can be on the surface and recharge/ save dive capacity. 
 

I genuinely couldn’t notice any kind of reduction to the effectiveness of the homing torps, only once did I actually need to switch to conventional torps to shotgun as the enemy Moskva was very good at dodging homing while rushing into me. Otherwise homing was so consistent and easy it really wasn’t necessary to use anything else. 
 

Finally on speed, I get the for some reason WG has a bee in its bonnet that sub players cannot cope with the idea they are not super fast. Still why not make it so on the surface they keep their very non historical speeds and when submerged they go much slower (not to historical levels but WOWS idea of slow). This might encourage a lot of people to remember that non nuclear submarines are technically submersibles and why they are shaped like boats. Sipped into position dive and then play the ‘cautious assassin in the shadows’ kind of gameplay that good submarine games understand. 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

11 hours ago, Karakzorn said:

I'll see how the game develops but as for now I'm going to put the game down, the community seems to understand the equipment, but not how to counter them in an effective manner, it was cool trying out the new vehicle, but even on the low tiers the theme seems to be pretty consistent, slow speed, poor weapons and enemies always catching up to you.

I am no unicum but I understand what WG is trying to tell us on how to counter subs. I can't make it work in any ship.

That by itself means nothing because I am a potato. But when I see all the top streamers show me the problem FROM BOTH SIDES (ie as a sub and as a target) then I know that THERE IS NO COUNTER to a  subplayer with the even the most basic grasp of the sub mechanics. It's like saying players don't understand how to counter planes... There's nothing to understand. There is no counter. At best you may sometimes be able to mitigate the damage they do under a very limited set of circumstances. With luck.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

10 hours ago, COPlUM said:

It's not complicated, if a normal player plays submarines, they're fine, even in their current form. Against a submarine player who knows what he's doing you have 2 options :
1) Die and lose
2) Spend 7 minutes sailing to the other flank so you can play the videogame a bit before you die and lose

There is no counter to well played submarines, none, you can have the sweatiest unicum 3 man div, they have 2 options, the ones I mentioned.

You can't spot them, you can't radar them, you can't hydro them, you can't plane-spot them, they decide when you are lit, every time they surface, you are lit, you get farmed, if you dare shoot anyone while getting farmed, you're lit longer, so you just sit there and die. If they're abusing the bug, they don't even need to surface to keep you lit. There is genuinely nothing you can do against them, the mechanics to do something against them simply are not implemented. Even if by some miracle you find yourself right on top of it, it takes 10 minutes of depth charges to kill it, if by some miracle it's stupid and got itself hard spotted while surfaced, you can't shoot it from long range either, it dives in the time it takes for your shells to land. They are for all intents and purposes immortal, if played correctly.

Flamu chases a submarine. 16 depth charge hits don't kill it. 

 

[OldSchoolFrankie]

29 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

This does not mean they are perfect now, but..

  Nice that you at least recognized that.

 

[ghostbuster_]

1 hour ago, Seraphice said:

Hey!

There's a lot of stuff to digest here, so I will try to cover most of the points here.

Submarines are topic alright. I don't think anyone will deny this, and even now they are still not ready. We need to continue working on them for now, and see how the announced changed affect them.
The latest round introduces a lot of changes in terms of counterplay and some commander skill improvements for subs.

I see your approach. Just ignore if you dont have any other valid argument. 

 

ok to this post: What counterplay? who supposed to counter subs? maybe try giving them speedboost with 60% additional speed bonus. maybe then we can have a proper counterplay against subs. hilarious. really. 

 

do you remember you said that its not always obvious if a ship going to be fine in randoms or not? and I disagreed with you and asked you to show me an example ship which we predicted its possible state in randoms? this is a perfect example. its obviously going to make life a way harder against subs and it wont work out like you (wg) thought. ofc if you thought at all. Although I really doubt that.

[Major_Boobage_]

Will they be taken off the main server and put back to PTS only? I refuse to play while you're using the main server as a guinea pig while we're paying for premium time etc and not enjoying most matches.

[ghostbuster_]

your argument to test ships on live server is getting enough data to see the actual performance. since PTS is not very interesting, not many people play there. so, to solve this problem, why dont you make lets say a part of combat missions doable only on PTS? And by that I dont mean daily missions etc. like dockyard missions or nation missions etc. so people would log in on PTS, play there to complete the misisons. so we could actually get PvP battles on PTS? 

 

what are you doing to solve unpopularity problem of PTS? are you even trying? @YabbaCoe @Seraphice

[Verblonde]

3 hours ago, Seraphice said:

Now we will need to see how things change with the upcoming patch.

Presumably, that ludicrous new mechanic for spotting pings is still being introduced? The one where you have zero idea now where the submarine actually is...

 

I imagine I haven't missed the update announcing the removal of the universally-derided DCP-mitigated pings/homing?

 

Assuming I'm correct in both those assumptions, submarines in the upcoming patch will still be intolerable. How many patches now (for which I've paid for premium time, not incidentally) have been ruined by submarines?!

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

Presumably, that ludicrous new mechanic for spotting pings is still being introduced? The one where you have zero idea now where the submarine actually is...

It's actually worse that that. If you have no idea, you may try an educated guess. As it is, you're given an indication that is always 100% of the time the wrong place to send your airstrike. 😂

[COPlUM]

6 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Flamu chases a submarine. 16 depth charge hits don't kill it.

That is on PTS, radius for depth charges was doubled in 11.4, on live you would not get 16 hits in that situation, you would get 2 or 3. In that same situation on live server he would have to ask the submarine nicely to please stay where he is, sit on top of it and do this for 7-10 minutes

[Cyclops_]

7 hours ago, Seraphice said:

Hey!

There's a lot of stuff to digest here, so I will try to cover most of the points here.

Submarines are topic alright. I don't think anyone will deny this, and even now they are still not ready. We need to continue working on them for now, and see how the announced changed affect them.
The latest round introduces a lot of changes in terms of counterplay and some commander skill improvements for subs.


Fair seas captain!
~Sera

Then do the right thing and take them out of Random Battles and put them into Public Test ONLY!!, simple really

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

2 hours ago, COPlUM said:

That is on PTS, radius for depth charges was doubled in 11.4, on live you would not get 16 hits in that situation, you would get 2 or 3. In that same situation on live server he would have to ask the submarine nicely to please stay where he is, sit on top of it and do this for 7-10 minutes

😂👍 Yeah, on the live server, he'd need 256 depth charge hits to do the same amount of damage - and still not kill him.

[FooFaFie]

My biggest problem with subs is that group of torps they can send in 1 time. Can't there be a few seconds between each torp launched? That way you the torps would be on 1 line. Maybe you can't avoid the first torp but maybe you can avoid the following torps.

[Seraphice]

22 hours ago, Verblonde said:

Presumably, that ludicrous new mechanic for spotting pings is still being introduced? The one where you have zero idea now where the submarine actually is...

 

I imagine I haven't missed the update announcing the removal of the universally-derided DCP-mitigated pings/homing?

 

Assuming I'm correct in both those assumptions, submarines in the upcoming patch will still be intolerable. How many patches now (for which I've paid for premium time, not incidentally) have been ruined by submarines?!

So we've tweaked the settings of it quite a bit. The ping will be more visible and visible for longer, and it will also be much closer to the actual sub now.
We will have to see now if these changes are enough, or whether more changes are required in this regard.
 

23 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

your argument to test ships on live server is getting enough data to see the actual performance. since PTS is not very interesting, not many people play there. so, to solve this problem, why dont you make lets say a part of combat missions doable only on PTS? And by that I dont mean daily missions etc. like dockyard missions or nation missions etc. so people would log in on PTS, play there to complete the misisons. so we could actually get PvP battles on PTS? 

 

what are you doing to solve unpopularity problem of PTS? are you even trying? @YabbaCoe @Seraphice

We are always trying to find additional ways to get people to play the public test server, however it will never be fully representative of a live environment. There are a lot of factors that play into that.

If you have more specific ideas, we'll be more than happy to hear them.
 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[MarChil]

On 5/3/2022 at 11:57 AM, Seraphice said:

We need to continue working on them for now, and see how the announced changed affect them.

1) I have a car for you, I have no idea if anything works as intended on it, so will you take it out for a couple of weeks and give feedback? Don't do it on the track, just on the public road. 

2) Why do you insist on, for lack of a better term, balancing subs on players with just a couple of hundred games? Meeting an expierenced player in a sub is certain death or at least a ticket out of the game. Your holy spreasheets must be telling you this for weeks now

3) Why do the BB's have to get subs, while also being at the most risk? Is it intended that BB's stay back because subs are around? What is your idea about subs, who is their counterclass? Or are we having another CV-type that are not balanced by another class.

4) so many questions you have not even tried to give a good answer to.....

5) won't get an answer, but hey, at least I made an effort

[ghostbuster_]

56 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

 

We are always trying to find additional ways to get people to play the public test server, however it will never be fully representative of a live environment. There are a lot of factors that play into that.

If you have more specific ideas, we'll be more than happy to hear them.
 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

I just gave you one...

First of you gotta except the fact that pts wont make you milk players. But still for a healthy game&test environment, you gotta invest in PTS aswell. Once you understand this, you can check the post above and see the idea for making pts more interesting to players.

[Seraphice]

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

I just gave you one...

First of you gotta except the fact that pts wont make you milk players. But still for a healthy game&test environment, you gotta invest in PTS aswell. Once you understand this, you can check the post above and see the idea for making pts more interesting to players.

Additional nation mission / dockyard missions unfortunately isn't really going to cut it for a specific idea that I mentioned. Currently there are already some missions you can complete for a reward on your live account, and it is not like we can just inflate PTS infinitely with additional rewards on the live server.
The PTS is mostly for checking the game stability and getting early feedback on new changes and content, it can never replace the live server in terms of performance and reliability.

I am also not entirely sure what the first part refers to, as nothing on the PTS is monetised to begin with. Accounts are credited with a ton of in-game resources and progression through tech trees is practically instant. We also don't sell any PTS exclusive content or such.
 

Fair seas captain!
~Sera

[Latouche_Treville]

If players' winnings on the PTS were donated to their respective clans (XP/FXP/credits/coal, etc...) could it be an incentive?