I cant enjoy warships anymore, please help

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Almost the same way, how the ships in that shima video could have dodged those torps. How to do that, I answered that.  

 

Nope. We don't know the full story. And we don't talk about a Shima we talk about another situation. So please stop misconstruing  and please  start being on point.

And also except the shima cant magically force you to use your DCP, unless fires his guns which in turn exposes him. And that's the whole point of the post.

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

   But after I watched the replay, I don't really see any point, why the submarine is the unfun part, when the Boro goes on a suicide course against 4-6 ships... ^^

Silly me i thought that we all understood what actually happened.

[Nov_A]

23 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Silly me i thought that we all understood what actually happened.

Yeah, my man @Beastofwar reacted to the initial post and it seems he is back with a vengeance.

[Andrewbassg]

1 minute ago, Nov_A said:

Yeah, my man @Beastofwar reacted to the initial post and it seems he is back with a vengeance.

 I actually miss him. He had style:). And.... we do keep in touch. He still visits the forum. 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, GarrusBrutus said:

imo the class of subs disrupts an already wonky game concept of rock/paper/scissor. Because it creates a whole new tier of "pro's vs con's".

It makes it more complicated, but in the end, if there is a torp-DD on the flank or a submarine won't make much of a difference in the passivity of game

 

1 hour ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Was the same in WoWs at the start. Golden days of IJN DD gameplay.

I was thinking about, if this wouldn't be better for WoWS, but then, it also comes with disadvantages, that you lose control over the game. It will be chaotic and in some way it may become frustrating, too

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

And yet again where he ended the match?

And yet again, that is a players decision. If he, as a player decides to do that, then it is his decision.

 

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

Saying that is not necessary to cap or saying that is not always necessary to cap, in order to win. is not the same thing. I argue on the presented point.

I was just generally mentioning, that a player don't have to cap always, but can go for a kill instead. That doesn't speak for or against teamplay or subs.

 

1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

And again he did not yolo he had a parallel course with their sub. Their sub ended up in almost the same position as ours..

He went into the channel, focused down by half the enemy team. Totally not yolo xD

 

53 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

And we don't talk about a Shima we talk about another situation.

I talk about the Shima as a comparison. This is posted and commented by another user and part of this topic :shrug:

 

 

55 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

And also except the shima cant magically force you to use your DCP, unless fires his guns which in turn exposes him. And that's the whole point of the post. 

You see it from the wrong side. You can't use DCP to counter Shima torps. I mean, if that is the issue, then we can remove the ability from DCP; that it can counter homing torps?

 

The concept of homing torps is, that the submarine can do more relying damage. While a Shima drops 15x20k dmg torps, the submarine has only around 6 or 8 homing torps with leass then 10k dmg (don't pin me on numbers). Aside that, a shima can use the guns for fires etc and force a dcp or let a ship burn. That means a submarine needs some way to deal some dmg. You generate that with more consitent hitting torpedos.

 

 

 

 

[GarrusBrutus]

59 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It makes it more complicated, but in the end, if there is a torp-DD on the flank or a submarine won't make much of a difference in the passivity of game

Judging from the average players' skill these days, I'd say a more complicated game is the last thing we need.

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And yet again, that is a players decision. If he, as a player decides to do that, then it is his decision.

Yes. But would you do that in a big fat  and slow US BB? Or in any cruiser with a lighthouse build? Yeah..

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I was just generally mentioning, that a player don't have to cap always, but can go for a kill instead. That doesn't speak for or against teamplay or subs.

 

 Then say it so.

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

He went into the channel, focused down by half the enemy team. Totally not yolo xD

i repeat for the N time, he wasn't.  He was on his way to cap A, he knew that there is a sub, because theirs was before his eyes.  He got pinged by the sub and also already took a salvo. He couldn't turn the other way coz broadside reasons and that's actually what you do. when you receive a ping.  He had no other choice.  He just couldn't stop in time because of big azz BB reasons. Yo...

 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I talk about the Shima as a comparison. This is posted and commented by another user and part of this topic :shrug:

 But you were happy and merry to reinforce that, when its completely false, for the aforementioned reasons.

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You see it from the wrong side. You can't use DCP to counter Shima torps. I mean, if that is the issue, then we can remove the ability from DCP; that it can counter homing torps?

 And yet he....could? Yo...... I mean defeating the pingz....

And yet again you use the wrong comparison.....

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The concept of homing torps is, that the submarine can do more relying damage. While a Shima drops 15x20k dmg torps, the submarine has only around 6 or 8 homing torps with leass then 10k dmg (don't pin me on numbers). Aside that, a shima can use the guns for fires etc and foce a dcp or let a ship burn. That means a submarine needs some way to deal some dmg. You generate that with more consitent hitting torpedos.

 

And you are still insisting to use the wrong and false comparison....

 

As for the homing ping sh#t the whole concept is bonkers Subs primary weapon should have been the unguided ones  with the possibility of selecting  spread or single fire with a Cv like reticle  and the homing torps should be a last resort, short ranged weapon , for self defense purposes.

Actually.. perhaps the unguided ones should still retain some homing capacity, just not like the other ones. 

[Andrewbassg]

Btw look what ships have survived.....

 

 

[BruderRaziel]

5 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Simple, it always depends on the ingame situation and how the sub is threatening you, in what position you are in that moment, if you were aware of its presence or not and much more. If you really want to know how to play the game with and around subs then give me specific examples and if that's too complicated for you or if your goal was to rant from the start instead of really wanting advice then just ignore this offer

So you want to give me exclusive hindsight advice? That makes no sense to me, if I had asked about any other class there would be a plethora of general advice and guidance one could give, but since we are talking about this new class that can (once again) break all the rules regular ships have to follow, it seems that people have difficulties giving any advice for countering them. "give me specific examples and if that's too complicated for you" How about you change your attitude a little bit? I never intended this thread to be an outlet for everyone frustrated with subs, I just asked how to fight them and this is your response? I have tried all the tools the game gives me, but so far it has been just a frustrating experience at best to deal with subs, so please stop trying to depict me as some buffoon who does not know what bow and aft means. Thus I must kindly refuse your offer, you honestly dont sound like you really want to help at all. And just to be clear, if I recalled every example of clunky, unfun sub interaction for which I have opened this thread, I would be here for hours describing every little detail of the specific match and situation, I dont think thats reasonable just to get some general advice.

 

Still, maybe I can be a little more specific:

 

I want to know how to position and drive my ship to either have the advantage when I have to entgage a sub or to outright avoid getting owned by one if I cant have the advantage. This has proven extremely difficult thanks to the capabilities of a sub to shrink its concealment, submerge and reposition at high speeds. Someone here said subs were slow, but they can go way past 30 knots while submerged, that is not what I call slow. Certainly not slow enough to make it vulnerable, being 1-2 knots faster than a target you have to be on top of is simply not good enough. Furthermore I need to know what to do when the sub simply plays around my ability to even retaliate, which is very easy for the sub. Many ships have 6km asw planes, which is pretty much right on my forehead, why would a decent sub player be in this range, unless to sneak up to me and shotgun me in the face, in which case there is no warning until its to late. Even 10km ASW planes have been proven ineffective agaisnt a sub player that knows what they are doing, since they outrange these planes by a good margin. There were stiuations where 4-5 ships were aware of the subs position or at least the thought so, piling all their ASW on that spot, but the sub still got away no problem. I have tried locating them by their ping, but unless they are within 6-8km that has never worked and even if they are its very hit and miss. At the same time firing breaks my own concealment even if the sub is not spotting me, so its really not worth it even trying and I tried many, many times. Evading the torpedos also usually only works once, whether dcp is up or not and the subs reload ensures there will be more on the way fast, or he can just not fire all of them at once an punish me immediately after evading the first set. Not to mention I have to be in a position where I can make violent turns without getting slapped out of the game by other ships. There was also this one match I played in Marceau where the enemy sub tried the hardflank from the mapborder, way overextended, so I decided to go deal with it to keep my battleships safe. I got one depthcharge on him, he stopped the leak right away, stayed submerged and I never saw him until the end of the match. While it worked to zone him out and keep my bbs safe, now I was at the [edited]end of the map with no other enemy to engage and no way to find the sub in the vast open ocean. I did the right thing for my team but got no reward, contrary it felt like a punishment to have to randomly drive around to maybe have one final engagement before the match ended. I ended the game with a pitiful amount of xp as well, this interaction felt just so clunky, unfun and punishing that I lost all motivation to play for the day. An this is about as much as I am willing to type right now, I could go on and on and on, but my time and yours is limited.

 

to conclude, so far this entire thread has amounted to four general answers:

 

1: Play ranked or quit. Fair enough, those are valid options

2: Use your ASW equipment, which is exactly my problem. I tried pretty much all of the available variants and they all are clunky, ineffective and worst of all, they require you to be directly on or very close to the sub to even have a chance of damaging it. At least this person actually gave me a goddamn answer and tried to be helpful.

3. Your request is not genuine, you just want to complain, [edited]you I am not helping you(I totally could, if I wanted to, promise)

4. Gotta change your ways, adapt or get fucked. As mentioned I tried to adapt and failed, thats why I am now here asking the community for advice.

 

Point 2 was actually just one larger post, I dont have the time right now to disect it one by one, but I will check back later, because I fear if anyone follows this advice there will be a rude awakaning for that person, as I have tried all of it already and failed. Never would I have thought that asking for general advice to counter one shipclass could be so controversial and exhausting. Imagine I had asked how to deal with dds, but alas dds play by the same rules as any other surfaceship, so I am very much able to figure them out, even when playing the class they are supposed to counter.

 

After that textwall I am now close to carpal tunnel syndrome, never would I have imagined I would have to write such paragraphs to justify asking for help. Something is definitely off here.

[BruderRaziel]

7 hours ago, Trench4nt said:

 

Well, stop playing Thunderer or Smolensk. Both ships are the weakest ones to play in terms of game mechanics.

But statwise I am quite bad on these ships, while they are some of the most powerful ones I own, so I want to get games in and improve. You telling me I cant do that because subs exist now? Thats pretty sad, I spent quite a bit of coal on both of these.

[Andrewbassg]

 

 

 And as for if you still have any doubt what ship to play....

 

 

 

[WalkingDutchman]

5 minutes ago, BruderRaziel said:

1: Play ranked or quit. Fair enough, those are valid options

2: Use your ASW equipment, which is exactly my problem. I tried pretty much all of the available variants and they all are clunky, ineffective and worst of all, they require you to be directly on or very close to the sub to even have a chance of damaging it. At least this person actually gave me a goddamn answer and tried to be helpful.

3. Your request is not genuine, you just want to complain, [edited]you I am not helping you(I totally could, if I wanted to, promise)

4. Gotta change your ways, adapt or get fucked. As mentioned I tried to adapt and failed, thats why I am now here asking the community for advice.

 

Point 2 was actually just one larger post, I dont have the time right now to disect it one by one, but I will check back later, because I fear if anyone follows this advice there will be a rude awakaning for that person, as I have tried all of it already and failed. Never would I have thought that asking for general advice to counter one shipclass could be so controversial and exhausting. Imagine I had asked how to deal with dds, but alas dds play by the same rules as any other surfaceship, so I am very much able to figure them out, even when playing the class they are supposed to counter.

 

After that textwall I am now close to carpal tunnel syndrome, never would I have imagined I would have to write such paragraphs to justify asking for help. Something is definitely off here.

You seemed to have summed up this thread pretty nicely there. Now I'm going to ignore all those points and give you my genuine advice to the best of my abilities. I'm not a unicum, close but no cigar just yet. So if that doesn't qualify me to give advice to you, then you can just stop reading here.

First off, you have to realize counterplay to subs absolutely sucks. There is 'counterplay' but not really though so I'm sure all those frustrations you've been feeling in dealing with them is familiar to most of us. Why do I say this? Because you're never going to feel satisfaction after sinking a sub ( unless you come across a potato sub and you can dunk 16 depth charges on its head in your DD ). Other than that it's always going to be a struggle with lots of guessing, not knowing where the thing ran off to. If you're playing anything other than a DD and a sub is coming after you, try and get as much distance between you and the sub, manage your dcp's effectively, drop ASW as much as you can and let your team know in the hopes that another ship can get up to the thing and at least spot it. Other than that, there's not really anything more you can do. When you're in a DD, only go after the subs if its in between your own lines, if you go after it in the middle, you'll just be focussed down by the enemy team. I tend to only hunt the sub in my DD if it's threatening ships that are actually doing something, if it's threatening a HE backrow yamato, then I couldn't care less. So that's in real basic terms my approach to subs. I kept it this basic not because I think you don't understand the elaborate version. I kept it this basic because as was pointed out earlier in this thread, a lot of the stuff is situational and the whole thing would end up being pages long and still wouldn't cover every specific scenario.

I hope this was a little bit of what you were looking for in an answer, hope it helps somewhat at least. To all the others who read this and think: 'My approach to subs is completely different.' That's fine I'm not here to argue just giving OP my view on things.

[Andrewbassg]

12 minutes ago, BruderRaziel said:

But statwise I am quite bad on these ships, while they are some of the most powerful ones I own, so I want to get games in and improve. You telling me I cant do that because subs exist now? Thats pretty sad, I spent quite a bit of coal on both of these.

He was sarcastic......

As for "countering" subs... not really possible.  One could fight/mitigate/avoid them still..... there is no general applicable tactic/answer. Anticipation would be the key word, but...is loaded for many many reasons.

The things that could work are all situational and almost all require teamwork. Otherwise.... only surprise tactics work. And ofc the sub cap being bad

[WalkingDutchman]

36 minutes ago, BruderRaziel said:

There was also this one match I played in Marceau where the enemy sub tried the hardflank from the mapborder, way overextended, so I decided to go deal with it to keep my battleships safe. I got one depthcharge on him, he stopped the leak right away, stayed submerged and I never saw him until the end of the match. While it worked to zone him out and keep my bbs safe, now I was at the [edited]end of the map with no other enemy to engage and no way to find the sub in the vast open ocean. I did the right thing for my team but got no reward, contrary it felt like a punishment to have to randomly drive around to maybe have one final engagement before the match ended. I ended the game with a pitiful amount of xp as well, this interaction felt just so clunky, unfun and punishing that I lost all motivation to play for the day.

This pretty much sums it up really. This is the subhunting experience.

[Trench4nt]

Vor 42 Minuten, BruderRaziel sagte:

But statwise I am quite bad on these ships, while they are some of the most powerful ones I own, so I want to get games in and improve. You telling me I cant do that because subs exist now? Thats pretty sad, I spent quite a bit of coal on both of these.

 

No, I am telling you that you do not learn the game correctly when you are playing those ships. ;-)

But yes, it is not that easy when you have to deal with them alone.

[_Xaero_]

19 hours ago, BruderRaziel said:

I have a question for all the super-unicums, those who understand every aspect of the game and are still playing for hours regularly: What are you doing to avoid the immense frustration that comes with having to fight subs?

 

I am serious, I currently consider quitting my favourite pvp game for good because the state of the game is beyond broken and unenjoyable to me. Until subs were released even CVs and could not outweigh the parts I like about WoWs, but now I want to pull my hair out after 2 games at the very most and I cant seem to find any meaningful counterplay, even if the subplayer is a certified potato. And dont even ask how it is when hes not... Seriously, what do I do? Despite literally hundreds of forumpages in every available language raging and speaking out against the implementation of subs there seems to be zero movement towards listening to this feedback and I have lost any hope that we wont get this crap forced into the game. Posts critizising subs are getting labeled "rant" and are just deleted.

 

Is quitting really the only option in this case or does any super-unicum have some sage advice for me so I can enjoy my beloved warships game again?

 

Honestly mate, you may not want to hear it but the best thing you can do with this game is to quit.

I've played this game for years and the only thing that really kept me playing was KOTS and clan battles. That being said, the game isn't worth it anymore. There are so many other games out there that are more deserving of your time and money, from a dev team that genuinely care about their audience.

WG will never change, they will never listen to their CCs and STs. They don't care about feedback or about the balance of the game overall.

It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.

I miss the times i'd play this game with friends, having banter back and forth or playing tactics for high level CBs but in the end, this game isn't worth mine, or your time. Don't give WG anymore of it (or your money) because it's clear what direction the game is going in and who their real target audience is.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

20 hours ago, albin322 said:

easy i play ranked!

That will include subs in the near future. Work-arounds never last.

[DDsOnly]

Just play DDs and you won't have all these issues

[Follow_The_Force]

Join the club !

[Pikkozoikum]

15 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Judging from the average players' skill these days, I'd say a more complicated game is the last thing we need.

Technically yes, but I think, that even average players enjoy complex games. That's why I think, that stuff like manual AA is not a bad idea, just because bad players would be bad with it

Though of course, I also think the "unfun" part also comes from the complexity. Submarines are new, new stuff to learn. If someone doesn't have learnt about submarines, it something unknown, that will dmg or sink him, and the frustration is there. On the other hand, if we take the Shima example here, people are not that much frustrated about DDs in general because of that. Because they know DDs.

 

I could imagine in a parallel world, if we had only BBs and Cruisers and then after years, they would add DDs. That many people would rant about DDs, how they can smoke-fire so well and burn down BBs or stealth torp all the day and have insane concealment and speed etc. Also that it would be unrealistic, to have DDs that powerful, since they were not that powerful irl, they came in numbers ^^

 

[Pikkozoikum]

14 hours ago, BruderRaziel said:

But statwise I am quite bad on these ships, while they are some of the most powerful ones I own, so I want to get games in and improve. You telling me I cant do that because subs exist now? Thats pretty sad, I spent quite a bit of coal on both of these.

You can play every ship you want, as long you enjoy it :D

[GarrusBrutus]

23 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Technically yes, but I think, that even average players enjoy complex games. That's why I think, that stuff like manual AA is not a bad idea, just because bad players would be bad with it

Though of course, I also think the "unfun" part also comes from the complexity. Submarines are new, new stuff to learn. If someone doesn't have learnt about submarines, it something unknown, that will dmg or sink him, and the frustration is there. On the other hand, if we take the Shima example here, people are not that much frustrated about DDs in general because of that. Because they know DDs.

 

I could imagine in a parallel world, if we had only BBs and Cruisers and then after years, they would add DDs. That many people would rant about DDs, how they can smoke-fire so well and burn down BBs or stealth torp all the day and have insane concealment and speed etc. Also that it would be unrealistic, to have DDs that powerful, since they were not that powerful irl, they came in numbers ^^

You assume that people do not like subs because they're relatively new. But I think you're wrong there. People mostly don't like subs because the interaction isnt fun and they create "empty" matches with less ships to shoot at.

[Verblonde]

6 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

You assume that people do not like subs because they're relatively new. But I think you're wrong there. People mostly don't like subs because the interaction isnt fun and they create "empty" matches with less ships to shoot at.

Whilst I can't speak for anyone else, pretty much this.

 

As I get more ancient, I try and be mindful of the tendency to be more conservative, and check that I'm not doing that in a knee-jerk sort of way. I don't believe I am with submarines; it's not that they're new as such (I would welcome well done submarines, provided I could have a pink one*), but rather that they aren't any fun to play against (or with, although I haven't been 4rsed to check that again for a patch or two now). At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the key problem - IMO - is the DCP mitigated pings/homing torps; give the things suitable dumb torps and remove pinging (for example), and you might have the basis of something decent.

 

 

 

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Petticoat

[Andrewbassg]

17 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

That will included subs in the near future past. Work-arounds never last.

Fixed a bit. Otherwise you are correct

[NewHorizons_1]

14 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Petticoat

That should deffo be the perma camo for Balao

 

15 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the key problem - IMO - is the DCP mitigated pings/homing torps; give the things suitable dumb torps and remove pinging (for example), and you might have the basis of something decent. 

Yup that ^^.

Homing torps should only be used in sub vs sub combat where unguided torps are about as much use as a chocolate fire-guard.