I cant enjoy warships anymore, please help

[Andrewbassg]

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The difference is, that Shima is in the game since release ....

Lolz......try again.

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

..... and of course they could easily dodge that, they just refused to do it

The shima can't just become  suddenly invisible  She needs to get into position. Which means escalation and you ignore those things at your peril.

 

And how you dodge homing sub torps in the presented situation?

[Pikkozoikum]

16 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Except, as you know,  the Borodino is a radar (12 km) equipped BB.  It was actually a good call, he tried to play the objective.

Having a radar doesn't mean to risk a ship and go yolo. If a BB pushes, then even a 12km torp range DD can torp that ship without being spotted.

 

16 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Of course. However it does encourage this kind of behavior.

I don't think so, submarines are slow, that doesn't encourage to chase ships. It's the opposite. When I play submarine, I often went for a cap, if it's reasonable.

On the other hand, a cap is not nesscary to win a game

 

 

16 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

And who could have warned him about the presence of the sub?? That thing was at ~10 km from him. to no avail.

1. Radar - that submarines is not submerged, nor it has a lot dive capacity to submerge for a long time.

2. Radio location, if someone really hates submarines, then build against it

3. Experience/Knowledge, Submarines are slow with low/medium range, they won't go for the far away flank, they will go short ways, so they are to be expected right there in the center.

4. Pinging of the submarines

5. Random spotting. There is often the case, that a submarine gets somehow spotted by airplanes, DDs etc.

 

There are so many ways, how there could/can be an information about the presence of a submarine

But also keep in mind, a submarine can't be outplayed always, a submarine also needs to have any chance to do something, so there will be always moments, where a submarine will have success just like any other ship.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Lolz......try again.

The shima can't just become  suddenly invisible  She needs to get into position. Which means escalation and you ignore those things at your peril.

 

And how you dodge homing sub torps in the presented situation?

This kind of argumentation doesn't make much sense to me. Saying "but shima can't do this". Yes and a submarine can't move above 40 knots nor it can dev strike 2 battleships and damage a 3rd ship in one go. So what the point of saying, what ship can do good?

 

Submarines are slow, in return they can dive. DDs are fast, can't dive, but in return they can decide their positioning just like the Shima in that video did

 

I'm not sure about the current version of homing torpedos, but as far as I know, they still can be dodged, but also you can use dcp, when torps are spotted, or run those into island etc. There are ways, which still doesn'T mean, that you will be able to dodge the torps to 100%, subs are supposed to do damage like any other ship as well.

[Pikkozoikum]

16 minutes ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Or are you saying the BBs i torped in that clip had counterplay and fun?

I'm sure, they had fun

[Andrewbassg]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Having a radar doesn't mean to risk a ship and go yolo. If a BB pushes, then even a 12km torp range DD can torp that ship without being spotted.

 

 

1. Radar - that submarines is not submerged, nor it has a lot dive capacity to submerge for a long time.

2. Radio location, if someone really hates submarines, then build against it

3. Experience/Knowledge, Submarines are slow with low/medium range, they won't go for the far away flank, they will go short ways, so they are to be expected right there in the center.

4. Pinging of the submarines

5. Random spotting. There is often the case, that a submarine gets somehow spotted by airplanes, DDs etc.

 

There are so many ways, how there could/can be an information about the presence of a submarine

But also keep in mind, a submarine can't be outplayed always, a submarine also needs to have any chance to do something, so there will be always moments, where a submarine will have success just like any other ship.

Yo.....he didn't yoloed. Look at the screens again...... and again + replay.....and then come back.

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I don't think so, submarines are slow, that doesn't encourage to chase ships. 

 

Just look where the sub ended the game.

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

On the other hand, a cap is not nesscary to win a game

 

Ok. Post ten games in a row where your team does not cap, at all and you win.

[GarrusBrutus]

28 minutes ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Or are you saying the BBs i torped in that clip had counterplay and fun?

Yes and probably not. They simply misplayed by ignoring an obvious shima on their flank. Obvious you say? Yes, you're in a division with the ships they spotted on their flank and theyre perma spotted. So any player with a functioning brain could have anticipated it and not sit still/huddle up/whatever they were doing. Shima is one of the easiest ships to counter actually. You were just lucky to encounter a flock of potatoes.

I've seen plenty of clips from subs devstriking people, in places on the map no DD could ever each due to detectability.

Wouldnt say they misplayed however. So comparing both classes seems kinda silly to me as they differ light and day, especially in counterplay options.

Atleast it fits in the development of the game over the years to offer more and more crutch gameplay options so even the worst players can occasionally feel like gods.

[Andrewbassg]

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

This kind of argumentation doesn't make much sense to me. Saying "but shima can't do this". Yes and a submarine can't move above 40 knots nor it can dev strike 2 battleships and damage a 3rd ship in one go. So what the point of saying, what ship can do good?

Remind me what the title of this thread is? Oh.....really? Also I posted  a full story so don't compare a short clip with a whole book.

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Submarines are slow, in return they can dive. DDs are fast, can't dive, but in return they can decide their positioning just like the Shima in that video did

We don't know the full story.

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm not sure about the current version of homing torpedos, but as far as I know, they still can be dodged, but also you can use dcp, when torps are spotted, or run those into island etc. There are ways, which still doesn'T mean, that you will be able to dodge the torps to 100%, subs are supposed to do damage like any other ship as well.

 

Stop saying generic ...."things" You were replying and to an exact situation, so please do that.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Just now, GarrusBrutus said:

o any player with a functioning brain

And this is the issue with the Borodigno position. He probably lacked one. But you are right, a sub can be dangerous even to functioning brain players. I personally killed quite a few unicums in my sub because they sometimes have no choice but to take key positions which I targeted. However that requires a brain sub player.

 

I compared the two because in the example of Andrewbassg even a DD would be as much a harrassment to the overextended BB

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

functioning brain

That is already steep requirement 

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Yo.....he didn't yoloed. Look at the screens again...... and again + replay.....and then come back.

He yoloed pretty hard. He is a T8 in a T10 match, he got early spotted and your teammate even calling that for a focus target... xD

After 2,5 min he already lost 10k hp without the sub in position.

He got attacked by 2-3 cruisers, a CV, a submarine and maybe even the BB. Yes, must be the submarine the unfun part xD

It also looks like, that most dmgs came from gun fire

 

15 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Just look where the sub ended the game.

Yes, and when I see a DD doing that? Does that mean, that the ship type of DD is encouraging not to cap? ;)

As I said, that was his player decision. He might do the same with a BB, DD, CV or cruiser. When I sit in a slow vessel, I don't feel encouraged to chase on the map other ships.

 

16 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Ok. Post ten games in a row where your team does not cap, at all and you win.

Why that specific condition? That makes no sense. I'm only saying, that you can win with other win conditions as well. You can lose a game with having 3 caps.

If I would be able to post 10 games in a row, where a team wins without going for one single cap, would be rather a proof, that caps are not winning conditions at all. But I never claimed that.

 

I was just saying, that you can win a game, without going for cap. I did not say, that a whole team should ignore all caps at all time. That's a difference.

 

 

[Andrewbassg]

1 minute ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

And this is the issue with the Borodigno position. He probably lacked one. But you are right, a sub can be dangerous even to functioning brain players..

 

I compared the two because in the example of Andrewbassg even a DD would be as much a harrassment to the overextended BB

Except.... not. Look again at the screens. 

[GarrusBrutus]

1 minute ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

And this is the issue with the Borodigno position. He probably lacked one. But you are right, a sub can be dangerous even to functioning brain players. I personally killed quite a few unicums in my sub because they sometimes have no choice but to take key positions which I targeted. However that requires a brain sub player.

 

I compared the two because in the example of Andrewbassg even a DD would be as much a harrassment to the overextended BB

Yeah i agree mate. Doesnt help with the passivity in this game imo. Especially if youre a casual gamer (90% of the playerbase? :p) and do not know or recognise all forms of threat. More and more ways to punish any form of aggression get implemented. If you even dare to venture out of spawn in a CA/BB there is CVs/DDs/Subs waiting for you. So you logically stay in spawn and snipe.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Stop saying generic ...."things" You were replying and to an exact situation, so please do that.

Almost the same way, how the ships in that shima video could have dodged those torps. How to do that, I answered that.

 

But after I watched the replay, I don't really see any point, why the submarine is the unfun part, when the Boro goes on a suicide course against 4-6 ships... ^^

[Panocek]

2 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Except.... not. Look again at the screens. 

I don't see DD/sub/anything in front of that Borodino to act as a spotter. Singled out, blind BB is one chonky damage pinata most of the time.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Just now, GarrusBrutus said:

Yeah i agree mate. Doesnt help with the passivity in this game imo. Especially if youre a casual gamer (90% of the playerbase? :p) and do not know or recognise all forms of threat. More and more ways to punish any form of aggression get implemented. If you even dare to venture out of spawn in a CA/BB there is CVs/DDs/Subs waiting for you. So you logically stay in spawn and snipe.

tbh it was the wish of the community to add reasons for players to yolo less. I remember players complaining often about fast ending games because players rush to their death. So WG implementing more threats requiring more careful play is really going against that behavior, Also Unicums usually always play more passive at first because it's just the smart way to play. It's the same in most other games. You always build up your economy first in AoE2 before committing unless you have a well planned out early rush in mind which when known it's coming can be countered easily leading to crippled economy.

 

Safe play has always been the best option and now WG requires it for even the pepegas who love to rush to their death because it's becoming more and more fruitless to do so with more counters to it

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Yeah i agree mate. Doesnt help with the passivity in this game imo. Especially if youre a casual gamer (90% of the playerbase? :p) and do not know or recognise all forms of threat. More and more ways to punish any form of aggression get implemented. If you even dare to venture out of spawn in a CA/BB there is CVs/DDs/Subs waiting for you. So you logically stay in spawn and snipe.

But that's the game concept issue, not a class-issue. Passive play was always present, because in this game we play slow ships, which can't react fast to a threat, thus if someone goes in a wrong position, he will get punished. If one ship goes a bit closer, it will get shot by bbs and cruisers, no need of DDs, subs, CVs etc.

 

I remember in Steel Ocean, where you never knew, if you were spotted, and this game was pretty aggressive yolo'ing^^

 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I don't see DD/sub/anything in front of that Borodino to act as a spotter. Singled out, blind BB is one chonky damage pinata most of the time.

Thanks, that's what I tryed to say ^^'

[Andrewbassg]

25 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

He yoloed.....

 

19 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I don't see DD/sub/anything

Yo.....people.... TF are you talkin about? Do you see any red sub? Where that sub should be if things are mirrored? Oh really?. Otherwise there is no dd in the match.

Also you keep assuming that the Borodino was going to enter the slot. That's false, look at his initial course . He got pinged by the sub, that's why I didn't get fires on him coz his DCP was already running. Obviously being pinged you turn into the pinging that's why he ended up in the slot.

 

Ermm....are we talking about the same match?

[GarrusBrutus]

14 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But that's the game concept issue, not a class-issue. Passive play was always present, because in this game we play slow ships, which can't react fast to a threat, thus if someone goes in a wrong position, he will get punished. If one ship goes a bit closer, it will get shot by bbs and cruisers, no need of DDs, subs, CVs etc. 

imo the class of subs disrupts an already wonky game concept of rock/paper/scissor. Because it creates a whole new tier of "pro's vs con's".

 

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I remember in Steel Ocean, where you never knew, if you were spotted, and this game was pretty aggressive yolo'ing^^

Was the same in WoWs at the start. Golden days of IJN DD gameplay.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 minute ago, Andrewbassg said:

 

Yo.....people.... TF are you talkin about? Do you see any red sub? Where that sub should be if things are mirrored? Oh really?. Otherwise there is no dd in the match.

Also you keep assuming that the Borodino was going to enter the slot. That's false, look at his initial course . He got pinged by the sub, that's why I didn't get fires on him coz his DCP was already running. Obviously being pinged you turn into the pinging that's why he ended up in the slot.

 

Ermm....are we talking about the same match?

We are but your brain seems to be aligned to the behavior of the Borodigno player is why you, same as him can't possibly grasp why his move is bad

[Andrewbassg]

1 minute ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

We are but your brain seems to be aligned to the behavior of the Borodigno player is why you, same as him can't possibly grasp why his move is bad

Nice try, but nope try again.

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, GarrusBrutus said:

imo the class of subs disrupts an already wonky game concept of rock/paper/scissor. Because it creates a whole new tier of "pro's vs con's".

There never was rock/paper/scissors to begin with balance wise, only hint of that was single trailer back in 2015

 

Battleship counter cruisers: technically yes, but cruisers also can burn BBs to the ground or by stuffing one with torpedoes

destroyer counter battleship: with torpedoes or fires only

cruiser counter destroyers: only if latter gets himself spotted

CV can bonk anyone but also anyone can bonk CV hull, nothing new 

 

[tocqueville8]

Far from a superunicum, but whenever I get frustrated I go play Ranked, preferably in the Colbert with a "jackass DPM build" 

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When I sit in a slow vessel, I don't feel encouraged to chase on the map other ships.

And yet again where he ended the match?

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why that specific condition? That makes no sense. I'm only saying, that you can win with other win conditions as well. You can lose a game with having 3 caps.

If I would be able to post 10 games in a row, where a team wins without going for one single cap, would be rather a proof, that caps are not winning conditions at all. But I never claimed that.

 

I was just saying, that you can win a game, without going for cap. I did not say, that a whole team should ignore all caps at all time. That's a difference.

 

Saying that is not necessary to cap or saying that is not always necessary to cap, in order to win. is not the same thing. I argue on the presented point.

 

And again he did not yolo he had a parallel course with their sub. Their sub ended up in almost the same position as ours..

 

Yo.... people... you argue about things which you don't understand. Lolz...

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

13 hours ago, BruderRaziel said:

I have a question for all the super-unicums, those who understand every aspect of the game and are still playing for hours regularly: What are you doing to avoid the immense frustration that comes with having to fight subs?

 

I am serious, I currently consider quitting my favourite pvp game for good because the state of the game is beyond broken and unenjoyable to me. Until subs were released even CVs and could not outweigh the parts I like about WoWs, but now I want to pull my hair out after 2 games at the very most and I cant seem to find any meaningful counterplay, even if the subplayer is a certified potato. And dont even ask how it is when hes not... Seriously, what do I do? Despite literally hundreds of forumpages in every available language raging and speaking out against the implementation of subs there seems to be zero movement towards listening to this feedback and I have lost any hope that we wont get this crap forced into the game. Posts critizising subs are getting labeled "rant" and are just deleted.

 

Is quitting really the only option in this case or does any super-unicum have some sage advice for me so I can enjoy my beloved warships game again?

 

I dont care about them I just play ranked