Oink! Or how over 2 years of thinking, designing, prototyping and testing resulted into this gem of gameplay design for PVP

[Cammo1962]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:20 PM, Europizza said:

 

TLDR; 2 subs in clan DIV chase my BB to map border and throw the match just to grief. We won, they got to sink a tier 8 BB together which took them over 6 action packed thrilling minutes. Well done :P

                                                                                                  brainfarting

Anyone of you devs explain to me, how over 2 years of brainstorming, thinking, designing, prototyping and testing resulted into this gem of gameplay design for a PVP title? What is the thinking behind this?

 

Thanks.

There you go @Europizza fixed it for you 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Oink! Update...

 

It turned out that with a WR of over 70-80% total in the last 80 random matches, and even a whopping 87,5% WR in my last 24 solo random matches, I lost the will to play as a result of this match. I just can't be bothered with this game anymore for now ^^

 

Guess I'm happier smelling my own farts for a while @Cammo1962 

 

CU guys on the other side, peace! 

[Figment]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:20 PM, Europizza said:

 

TLDR; 2 subs in clan DIV chase my BB to map border and throw the match just to grief. We won, they got to sink a tier 8 BB together which took them over 6 action packed thrilling minutes. Well done :P

Well it was a win at least. But what this video tells me is neither you or the enemy really knew how to play in this instance IMO. (Again, this is no defense of the current sub design, but bad play by players isn't a great indicator of bad design either). No offense, but you seem not to be very aware on how subs play at the moment, so you're not making all the right calls either and IMO act instinctively on fear of getting hit. it worked out in the end with the subs and teams doing what they did, but it's not a great example of a good nor a representative engagement of two sides who know what they're doing.

 

We can conclude from a 6 minute engagement by two spammy subs, that homing torps aren't guaranteed to hit much of anything, even if the target isn't really trying not to get hit by running away in open waters so the enemy has more time to engage from safety with line of sight, ending up laying near still on a border so it should become hard to miss. The narrow spread is relatively easy to dodge once you deactivated the homing after all and the torp range usualy isn't too great either if a target is running away, despite its speed.

 

That said, you contributed as much as they did in turning this combat experience into a dull repeat excercise by trying to disengage (running), without actually trying to (or knowing how to?) disengage (you didn't look to break line of sight at all). You basically kept the situation as it was from the start. If you'd run, I'd have stayed closer to the islands to the right of the screen, which would have given you more control over their positioning as you'd narrow their options to get line of sight and more importantly, even a lead on you (even ping needs that to hit).

 

You're lucky they wern't too bright either though. The main thing those subs did wrong, was to keep pinging you, tbh. IMO the first volley is best fired without pings anyway and if that isn't a hit, possibly a good moment to disengage if it comes at you. At least one of them should have gone without pings to make it more likely you'd turn into his torps while trying to escape the others. But if neither had pinged, they'd have likely caught you in your path with at least the first volley from either of them due to the initial angles.

 

Some tips:

 

- Use your fighter aircraft to help spot. Especially near the end of that video. You didn't launch any, despite the enemy subs being only 5km out from you at the end. Had you engaged them, those fighter aircraft would have given you a good chance to scout them out, made your ASW more accurate and given you a chance to fire HE and force them down.

- You say you didn't want to turn into them, because of the different angles. On the other hand, you'd likely have killed at least one by exposing it to your allies (who'd been able to assist) and quite possibly gotten both of them (one by air strikes, one by turret fire). Yes, you'd likely have taken some damage, but you did now as well.

- Engaging one would have likely forced it to dive and disengage, leaving you with just one firing torps at you. Since they can't get away from their position easily, they'd likely have been moving at you (closing the distance faster) or go in reverse, making it hard to opt for an unpredictable escape path while diving.

- Spam your ASW aircraft a bit more and with a bit more lead, you wait awfully long at times and seem to aim at where they were or behind them, rather than where they'll be at times.

- Try utilising islands a bit more to disengage with one sub so you can concentrate on the other, while forcing the sub that lost line of sight to reposition, likely by getting closer to the island while moving around the island and thereby trapping itself on one side, making it more predictable. Plus once it would reengage you'd know exactly where it'd be and likely both subs would be at the same angle, possibly even blocking each other's line of sight a bit.

[Cammo1962]

3 hours ago, Europizza said:

Oink! Update...

 

It turned out that with a WR of over 70-80% total in the last 80 random matches, and even a whopping 87,5% WR in my last 24 solo random matches, I lost the will to play as a result of this match. I just can't be bothered with this game anymore for now ^^

 

Guess I'm happier smelling my own farts for a while @Cammo1962 

 

CU guys on the other side, peace! 

Take care and stay safe @Europizza 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, Figment said:

Well it was a win at least. But what this video tells me is neither you or the enemy really knew how to play in this instance IMO. (Again, this is no defense of the current sub design, but bad play by players isn't a great indicator of bad design either). No offense, but you seem not to be very aware on how subs play at the moment, so you're not making all the right calls either and IMO act instinctively on fear of getting hit. it worked out in the end with the subs and teams doing what they did, but it's not a great example of a good nor a representative engagement of two sides who know what they're doing.

 

We can conclude from a 6 minute engagement by two spammy subs, that homing torps aren't guaranteed to hit much of anything, even if the target isn't really trying not to get hit by running away in open waters so the enemy has more time to engage from safety with line of sight, ending up laying near still on a border so it should become hard to miss. The narrow spread is relatively easy to dodge once you deactivated the homing after all and the torp range usualy isn't too great either if a target is running away, despite its speed.

 

That said, you contributed as much as they did in turning this combat experience into a dull repeat excercise by trying to disengage (running), without actually trying to (or knowing how to?) disengage (you didn't look to break line of sight at all). You basically kept the situation as it was from the start. If you'd run, I'd have stayed closer to the islands to the right of the screen, which would have given you more control over their positioning as you'd narrow their options to get line of sight and more importantly, even a lead on you (even ping needs that to hit).

 

You're lucky they wern't too bright either though. The main thing those subs did wrong, was to keep pinging you, tbh. IMO the first volley is best fired without pings anyway and if that isn't a hit, possibly a good moment to disengage if it comes at you. At least one of them should have gone without pings to make it more likely you'd turn into his torps while trying to escape the others. But if neither had pinged, they'd have likely caught you in your path with at least the first volley from either of them due to the initial angles.

 

Some tips:

 

- Use your fighter aircraft to help spot. Especially near the end of that video. You didn't launch any, despite the enemy subs being only 5km out from you at the end. Had you engaged them, those fighter aircraft would have given you a good chance to scout them out, made your ASW more accurate and given you a chance to fire HE and force them down.

- You say you didn't want to turn into them, because of the different angles. On the other hand, you'd likely have killed at least one by exposing it to your allies (who'd been able to assist) and quite possibly gotten both of them (one by air strikes, one by turret fire). Yes, you'd likely have taken some damage, but you did now as well.

- Engaging one would have likely forced it to dive and disengage, leaving you with just one firing torps at you. Since they can't get away from their position easily, they'd likely have been moving at you (closing the distance faster) or go in reverse, making it hard to opt for an unpredictable escape path while diving.

- Spam your ASW aircraft a bit more and with a bit more lead, you wait awfully long at times and seem to aim at where they were or behind them, rather than where they'll be at times.

- Try utilising islands a bit more to disengage with one sub so you can concentrate on the other, while forcing the sub that lost line of sight to reposition, likely by getting closer to the island while moving around the island and thereby trapping itself on one side, making it more predictable. Plus once it would reengage you'd know exactly where it'd be and likely both subs would be at the same angle, possibly even blocking each other's line of sight a bit.

 

TLDR: I know we all have tips and answers how to handle Lesta's most recent 2 year fuckup. But I'm done trying to think of things to have fun in more ways then just griefing and schadenfreude, because that is what this russian designed game seems to boil down to these days: sadistic mechanics that lead to way too many lopsided situations and matches. It's simply to much poor game managment, -production and -design in 1 chunk that I can't be arsed to swallow lol.

 

LONG VERSION BELOW

Spoiler

Well thanks for the tips mate. It's not about being killed by them. It's about not wanting to spend my gaming leisure time figuring out how to counter Lesta's stupid ideas and poorly executed barf, again. I know it doesn't look like it in this video, but I know how to kill subs, and I've killed plenty in the last weeks. I only died twice to subs in the 90 or so battles in which I had a 87,5% WR or something, the other time it was a player abusing dolphin and shotgunned me in the face in my light cruiser while I was hunting him. It's not about losing, it's not about dying, it's about the annoying stupidity that Lesta brings to the table. I simply can't stomague it.

 

As for this situation: I did use the island before that's to my right at the video start to break from sub 1, and ended up running into it's buddy on the other side. This is where the video starts. This was the first time I was confronted by this situation. I didn't know at the time if these 2 dived up subs from the same clan, probably on VOIP, were actually any good. I did figure me running into these 2 divved up clan subs wasn't an accident. My remaining team had been tunnelvisioned on the cap fights so far, and I actually wanted them to keep doing what they were doing, since they seemed to be getting the upper had overthere and on the way to a match victory. I HATE it when 4 or 5 players drop everything just to stupid hunt a single fkn sub, let alone 2. There is NO cool gameplay design in place for that. That is where the problem sit with me. It's simply no fun to do so, and I've never had a satisfying sub kill unless I was in a sub as well. It's MEH. There is no excitement, no satisfaction in it for me, nothing.

 

I understand how things work and sure i can learn. This situation would have been different if it had been 1 sub. But 2, in a div from the same clan probably on VOIP is a big risk, so after being a bit baffled a bit at first trying to get my bearing, I chose to make myself as small of a target as possible to be able to maximize the unguided last part of the torpedoes, which basically worked. Once I understood they were bad I either had a choice to turn or hit the map border and abuse borderscraping to dodge even more I chose the latter because it bought me time, and it worked again. We can discuss how turning, eating 2 full alpha volleys, chasing 2 subs of which 1 can simply stay surfaced and spot, ping, guide torp me, while the other can persicope yolo in and shotgun me in the face would have been better, but I'm pretty sure that is just armchair general speak. I did what I thought was best: stay alive, buy time. I half arsed dropping the charges, because I actually didn't fkn care to pixelhunt in a game that's entirely based on interface fights. Again it's poor [edited]design and execution. Half the time I can't see the bloody watersurface clues anyway. So, they lost, I died a unexciting death, the match was over. It was stupid and I felt like I wasted my leisure time better spent on making music, art, my family or actually great games, you know, the ones not focused on making BS by a bunch of failing producers and designers. I just can't bring myself to play this game after I had weeks of actual fun and laughs with the clan. This crap broke my back.

 

[Figment]

9 minutes ago, Europizza said:

 

TLDR: I know we all have tips and answers how to handle Lesta's most recent 2 year fuckup. But I'm done trying to think of things to have fun in more ways then just griefing and schadenfreude, because that is what this russian designed game seems to boil down to these days: sadistic mechanics that lead to way too many lopsided situations and matches. It's simply to much poor game managment, -production and -design in 1 chunk that I can't be arsed to swallow lol.

Fair enough. :)

9 minutes ago, Europizza said:

LONG VERSION BELOW

  Hide contents

Well thanks for the tips mate. It's not about being killed by them. It's about not wanting to spend my gaming leisure time figuring out how to counter Lesta's stupid ideas and poorly executed barf, again. I know it doesn't look like it in this video, but I know how to kill subs, and I've killed plenty in the last weeks. I only died twice to subs in the 90 or so battles in which I had a 87,5% WR or something, the other time it was a player abusing dolphin and shotgunned me in the face in my light cruiser while I was hunting him. It's not about losing, it's not about dying, it's about the annoying stupidity that Lesta brings to the table. I simply can't stomague it.

 

As for this situation: I did use the island before that's to my right at the video start to break from sub 1, and ended up running into it's buddy on the other side. This is where the video starts. This was the first time I was confronted by this situation. I didn't know at the time if these 2 dived up subs from the same clan, probably on VOIP, were actually any good. I did figure me running into these 2 divved up clan subs wasn't an accident. My remaining team had been tunnelvisioned on the cap fights so far, and I actually wanted them to keep doing what they were doing, since they seemed to be getting the upper had overthere and on the way to a match victory. I HATE it when 4 or 5 players drop everything just to stupid hunt a single fkn sub, let alone 2. There is NO cool gameplay design in place for that. That is where the problem sit with me. It's simply no fun to do so, and I've never had a satisfying sub kill unless I was in a sub as well. It's MEH. There is no excitement, no satisfaction in it for me, nothing.

 

I understand how things work and sure i can learn. This situation would have been different if it had been 1 sub. But 2, in a div from the same clan probably on VOIP is a big risk, so after being a bit baffled a bit at first trying to get my bearing, I chose to make myself as small of a target as possible to be able to maximize the unguided last part of the torpedoes, which basically worked. Once I understood they were bad I either had a choice to turn or hit the map border and abuse borderscraping to dodge even more I chose the latter because it bought me time, and it worked again. We can discuss how turning, eating 2 full alpha volleys, chasing 2 subs of which 1 can simply stay surfaced and spot, ping, guide torp me, while the other can persicope yolo in and shotgun me in the face would have been better, but I'm pretty sure that is just armchair general speak. I did what I thought was best: stay alive, buy time. I half arsed dropping the charges, because I actually didn't fkn care to pixelhunt in a game that's entirely based on interface fights. Again it's poor [edited]design and execution. Half the time I can't see the bloody watersurface clues anyway. So, they lost, I died a unexciting death, the match was over. It was stupid and I felt like I wasted my leisure time better spent on making music, art, my family or actually great games, you know, the ones not focused on making BS by a bunch of failing producers and designers. I just can't bring myself to play this game after I had weeks of actual fun and laughs with the clan. This crap broke my back.

 

Appreciate the long version, keep up the good work. :)