San Diego nerfs - discussion on the NA forum

[invicta2012]

42 minutes ago, SkipperCH said:

This is WG's approach of open communication. Each and every change is published. And the copy ships like Lappland for example were to test concepts, not to test a ship that would get implemented. And seeing a ship perform well in battle that is an upcoming premium ship might even help sales. 

+1 for the transparency. But I think something is being missed.

 

If you want to take a real world ship and announce it as an upcoming premium, then you have to understand that the player base already has a view on that ship. It's an existing brand. Any company with a decent marketing department would be asking its players about potential new premiums and finding out how they react to certain names and what the expectations are.Then take a concept ship of that type and see if it's fun / effective, before making an announcement about any particular name.

 

San Diego, as a brand, is a Tier VIII Atlanta. A traditional one, that fires HE and AP from DD calibre guns and is quite good at air-defence*. I might want some of the challenges faced by existing Atlanta class ships (ballistics, armour, range) to be looked at but I don't want that core vision for the ship lost. If it turns out that a trad Atlanta at Tier VIII isn't much fun and a surface combat version is better, then that's good - but you can't call it San Diego, it's Tacoma or Albuquerque or Galveston. Insisting that the ship is San Diego even if the testing ship has no relation to their existing concept makes the players cross, and the dev blog transparency makes it worse: players just say "this ship isn't what I wanted", "you don't listen", "you're making it up as you go along" and "we don't like your new design either". It's a world of sour grapes that could be avoided with a bit more care.

 

 

 

[Miragetank90]

1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

If you want to take a real world ship and announce it as an upcoming premium, then you have to understand that the player base already has a view on that ship. It's an existing brand. Any company with a decent marketing department would be asking its players about potential new premiums and finding out how they react to certain names and what the expectations are.Then take a concept ship of that type and see if it's fun / effective, before making an announcement about any particular name.

 

That's time and effort spent to get a confused mess of answers, everyone in the playerbase has their own view on everything and how things ''should'' be in WoWs. 

 

1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

San Diego, as a brand, is a Tier VIII Atlanta. A traditional one, that fires HE and AP from DD calibre guns and is quite good at air-defence*. I might want some of the challenges faced by existing Atlanta class ships (ballistics, armour, range) to be looked at but I don't want that core vision for the ship lost. If it turns out that a trad Atlanta at Tier VIII isn't much fun and a surface combat version is better, then that's good - but you can't call it San Diego, it's Tacoma or Albuquerque or Galveston. Insisting that the ship is San Diego even if the testing ship has no relation to their existing concept makes the players cross, and the dev blog transparency makes it worse: players just say "this ship isn't what I wanted", "you don't listen", "you're making it up as you go along" and "we don't like your new design either". It's a world of sour grapes that could be avoided with a bit more care.

 

That people look at the ship and see the superficial(looks like Atlanta, Atlanta-class, etc), holding on to that and allowing it to shape their expectations is a psychological thing or otherwise lacking experience with ships. 

How do you know that the ''core vision'' was to make it like an Atlanta at tier 8? Maybe it was to make it Austin at tier 8 instead, no? Regardless, why can they no longer call it San Diego because of that, despite it being literally modelled after the ship?

 

In the end it's a naval themed shooter with a historical flavour. If it existed irl the name should match the model but the gameplay quirks should be up to the dev without hamstringing themselves by building the gameplay of a ship around what some would expect. 

 

Myself I definitely do not want a tier 8 Atlanta, nor do I automatically expect SD to be that by ''brand''. And, since I adore Austin, I'm much more receptive to San Diego as it exists now.  

 

 

[Verblonde]

5 hours ago, mcboernester said:

First off NA is its own little world, therefore placing a complaint on an EU Forum about their moderation will help nobody.

Who was complaining?! The first part of my post was intended as compliment to the less heavy-handed approach taken by the EU folk!

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Miragetank90 said:

That's time and effort spent to get a confused mess of answers, everyone in the playerbase has their own view on everything and how things ''should'' be in WoWs. 

It's called market research. And of course you get a spread of answers, just as you would do for any question asked to a decent sample group. But what you do establish is what important segments of your market are thinking, what they value, what they don't like. Most companies know that it is possible to get lost in a data rabbit hole from time to time, but that's usually a better risk to take than not engaging with your customer base and giving them something they don't want. WG *might* be a little guilty of that from time to time.

 

1 hour ago, Miragetank90 said:

That people look at the ship and see the superficial(looks like Atlanta, Atlanta-class, etc), holding on to that and allowing it to shape their expectations is a psychological thing or otherwise lacking experience with ships. 

How do you know that the ''core vision'' was to make it like an Atlanta at tier 8? Maybe it was to make it Austin at tier 8 instead, no? Regardless, why can they no longer call it San Diego because of that, despite it being literally modelled after the ship?

I think verisimilitude is important and certainly forms part of the reason why I like this game, and why I play it. If I have a disconnect between the real world ship and the in-game ship, I tend to avoid playing it. I'm sure there many others who don't care so much (a valid point of view) but I would be disappointed if WG's approach to development went completely speculative. 

 

As for Tier VIII Austin - that's a great idea. Just don't call it San Diego. :)

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

Apart from the range and the heal (which are not insignificant but don't affect dpm directly), how is the San Diego actually stronger than Atlanta? And Atlanta has radar, which is rare and very effective at T7.

I love these glass cannons, and was seriously considering San Diego after they buffed her RoF from 8 to 5 seconds. I can live this small nerf, but I don't want to get hit with another after I get her.

[geschlittert]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:53 PM, Verblonde said:

As you've probably seen, San Diego got another nerfing; this resulted in this thread on NA: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254404-more-san-diego-nerfs/

 

Presumably, the Americans care more about this sort of thing because SD is historical, as well as being - y'know - American? 

 

Anyway, the reason I mention this (besides it perhaps being of mild interest generally) is that it's interesting to note the - IMO - over-reaction of the WG staff person that locked the thread at the end. Whilst we may not always agree with the people running the EU forum, they generally don't try and flat-out stamp on topics of discussion where WG aren't covering themselves in glory (with trying to lose criticism of CVs etc. in endlessly long single threads to be taken into consideration)... 

San diego was completely OP

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

20 minutes ago, geschlittert said:

San diego was completely OP

Bald assertion. You don't know that.

[geschlittert]

1 minute ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Bald assertion. You don't know that.

You sure about that? Unlike someone else i know how to read stats

[SkipperCH]

Vor 13 Minuten, geschlittert sagte:

You sure about that? Unlike someone else i know how to read stats

Stats can be misleading. But since the cat is out of the bag I can confirm her past performance as ludicrous.

[invicta2012]

10 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

how is the San Diego actually stronger than Atlanta?

Her potential DPM was much higher, she didn't need IFHE to damage higher tier ships (because her SAP's base pen is 37mm). They've also changed the shell ballistics so that the shell's don't do the "mortar round" thing that US DD guns usually do. The concept probably needs three, four rounds of testing before it's ready. 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

4 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Her potential DPM was much higher, she didn't need IFHE to damage higher tier ships (because her SAP's base pen is 37mm). They've also changed the shell ballistics so that the shell's don't do the "mortar round" thing that US DD guns usually do. The concept probably needs three, four rounds of testing before it's ready. 

Yeah, I guess we should wait before judging. As for SAP, it has its pros and cons. Atlanta ALWAYS does damage. If you have only SAP and AP (and small caliber guns) you may be SOL in some situations. And the floatiness of Atlanta's guns often work in her favor as you can park right up against islands and your shells still clear the rocks.

[invicta2012]

29 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

Yeah, I guess we should wait before judging. As for SAP, it has its pros and cons. Atlanta ALWAYS does damage. If you have only SAP and AP (and small caliber guns) you may be SOL in some situations. And the floatiness of Atlanta's guns often work in her favor as you can park right up against islands and your shells still clear the rocks.

Completely agree. Obvs. no-one who has played the ship can say why it was OP (because it's under NDA) but I do have the feeling from those stats that when the ship *could* do damage, it did far too much of it, and now they're trying to find the right balance. Hopefully they'll take their time and get it right!

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Completely agree. Obvs. no-one who has played the ship can say why it was OP (because it's under NDA) but I do have the feeling from those stats that when the ship *could* do damage, it did far too much of it, and now they're trying to find the right balance. Hopefully they'll take their time and get it right!

I hope so too. 'Cause I was really looking forward to getting this one.

[Verblonde]

Apologies for mild necro, but Daily Bounce has a review on San Diego up now: https://thedailybounce.net/world-of-warships/world-of-warships-final-review-u-s-tier-viii-premium-cruiser-san-diego/

 

Sounds quite promising after all that; mind you, I'm looking at her from the perspective of Coop play, and - possibly/hopefully - the return of the T8 Ops...

[VenividiviciNL]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:44 PM, SkipperCH said:

I can't talk about her performance due to NDA reasons - Just repeat what Boggzy revealed. That she is/was over-performing in extremes I haven't seen before.  

Okay, but I assume that is in the hands of a more than skilled player (Let say: SailingRobin for example?)

 

In my case it would be more than a possibility that the SD fails like hell and there are more potatoes ingame, so why the fuzz?

 

The mentioning of same lately introduced RU CV's of being OP is more in place from my point of view.

 

For the rest, I do like how you moderate the EU forum: allowing much, only intervening when necessary. Chapeau for that, mate!

[MannequinSkywalker]

15 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Apologies for mild necro, but Daily Bounce has a review on San Diego up now: https://thedailybounce.net/world-of-warships/world-of-warships-final-review-u-s-tier-viii-premium-cruiser-san-diego/

 

Sounds quite promising after all that; mind you, I'm looking at her from the perspective of Coop play, and - possibly/hopefully - the return of the T8 Ops...

Maltese knight also released a video of SD in case you’d like to see gameplay :)

[SodaBubbles]

Looks like San Diego only had one problem: it wasn't Russian.

 

14.8 firing range and no HE. lololololol. Hard pass. Especially since you'll be uptiered 70-75% of the time.

[Muppeteer]

I assume its out of NDA now and I could indeed tell you some tales of why it needed balancing, and btw does it really count as a "nerf" when the ship is still in development? I'll return when its actually live anyway just to be careful.

[Wulf_Ace]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:59 AM, Seraphice said:

Indeed, she was overperforming quite a bit. NDA still binds everyone, but in this case, really, there was no other expectation than a nerf.

Considering the redesign, and quite substantial buff she was given in https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/308

 

In any case you can always refer to boggzy's reply.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

how long Petropavlovsk was overperforming in REAL GAME, not in testing. Before it got some kind of nerf, which I still think they are not big enough.

 

But how LONG did he overperform in the game, how long!

[Wulf_Ace]

12 hours ago, SodaBubbles said:

Looks like San Diego only had one problem: it wasn't Russian.

 

14.8 firing range and no HE. lololololol. Hard pass. Especially since you'll be uptiered 70-75% of the time.

will be fun against tier 10.

 

No.

[Bainsmit_steel]

I will take San Diego it looks interesting...no HE spam for an change...considering the rest well t 10 usually beat t 8 :) or maybe not :)...

[Itwastuesday]

Is there no national gimmick america won't get? They already had radar on cruisers and BB both (and a DD?), improved bounce angle AP cruisers, secondaries bb, smoke cruisers, now SAP on cruisers and DD... Exhaust smoke german hydro american torp BB when?

 

Meanwhile no axis ship gets superheal, radar, improved angle ap, passable AA... There's not even one axis CL line...

[Verblonde]

11 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

There's not even one axis CL line...

Presumably, there'll be a line split for the Germans at some point...? Also, isn't there an IJN CL line split upcoming too?

[Itwastuesday]

1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

Presumably, there'll be a line split for the Germans at some point...? Also, isn't there an IJN CL line split upcoming too?

Cool, haven't heard of such a thing tho. And I'm sure whatever IJN/KM CL will do, an american premium also will right after...

[Verblonde]

12 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Cool, haven't heard of such a thing tho. And I'm sure whatever IJN/KM CL will do, an american premium also will right after...

 

Source: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/waterline-roadmap-update-spring-2022/#fall-2022

 

I think that's the American news site, but it's the first hit I got with Google (probably because of where I live)...