San Diego nerfs - discussion on the NA forum

[Verblonde]

As you've probably seen, San Diego got another nerfing; this resulted in this thread on NA: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254404-more-san-diego-nerfs/

 

Presumably, the Americans care more about this sort of thing because SD is historical, as well as being - y'know - American?

 

Anyway, the reason I mention this (besides it perhaps being of mild interest generally) is that it's interesting to note the - IMO - over-reaction of the WG staff person that locked the thread at the end. Whilst we may not always agree with the people running the EU forum, they generally don't try and flat-out stamp on topics of discussion where WG aren't covering themselves in glory (with trying to lose criticism of CVs etc. in endlessly long single threads to be taken into consideration)...

[SkipperCH]

Vor 11 Minuten, Verblonde sagte:

Anyway, the reason I mention this (besides it perhaps being of mild interest generally) is that it's interesting to note the - IMO - over-reaction of the WG staff person that locked the thread at the end. Whilst we may not always agree with the people running the EU forum, they generally don't try and flat-out stamp on topics of discussion where WG aren't covering themselves in glory (with trying to lose criticism of CVs etc. in endlessly long single threads to be taken into consideration)...

Please do not start a discussion about different ways of moderation, since we would have to shut this down here too.

 

But to stay on topic. San Diego had a whpping 460.000 SAP dpm as a T8 cruiser. This was bound to nerfs. 

[Verblonde]

6 minutes ago, SkipperCH said:

Please do not start a discussion about different ways of moderation, since we would have to shut this down here too.

That would be a trifle ironic, no?

 

As to the matter of SD, I'm more inclined to trust LWM than WG on something like this; that said, I'll wait and see what the final released version looks like - if it sucks and/or isn't fun, I won't buy it, and if it doesn't/is fun I may. It'll be a shame if she does turn out to be pants though - I like the various Atlantas/Juneaus...

[Animalul2012]

Jeez I wonder where all this"it had BIG DPM" thing was when Smolensk was released or thunderer or worcester or harugumo??? San diego is a light cruisers and that makes it automatically questionable,the armor is not there and no big amount of heals will save you when mr BB notices you. Nice Irony locking a thread who talks about a ship "balanced changes" being unreasonable when you released things like smolensk and thunderer into the game and you refuse to substantially nerf the later. Oh well I guess unless is a CV is destined to be mediocre or utter garbage. Why Ckhalov not nerfed yet huh? Mr political boy, you should ban yourself with that avatar of yours, I tought politics were not allowed.

[SkipperCH]

I can't talk about her performance due to NDA reasons - Just repeat what Boggzy revealed. That she is/was over-performing in extremes I haven't seen before.  

[Verblonde]

5 minutes ago, SkipperCH said:

That she is/was over-performing in extremes I haven't seen before.

If that is the case, then fair play - I'd much rather mediocre premiums were released than OP ones (even if the latter are now nerfable), at least if they're fun...

[SkipperCH]

Live testing is definitely needed with any test ship. As you can see all ships, which are in live testing, got changed in some ways. For someone who has no access to the ships prior to their release alterations to their stats can be misleading sometimes. Therefore I wouldn't pay attention to ships in testing, since their data and characteristics can change a lot through their different iterations. The german Elbing line startet out with Hydro short range low dmg torpedos, and no smoke and ended up with smoke, long range high dmg torpedos but no hydro. 

 

If a ship is good or bad or even fun to play we can tell when the NDA gets lifted. But we still are forbidden to provide insight into older testing iterations. 

[VenividiviciNL]

43 minutes ago, SkipperCH said:

Please do not start a discussion about different ways of moderation, since we would have to shut this down here too.

With utmost respect to you, the moderation on EU server is pretty liberal in comparison with the NA server. 

 

I can understand why certain topics are closed very quickly, but the NA forum is throwing bans on forumites without any problem, whereas the EU allows discussions within certain boundaries, especially when you look at game developments by WG.

 

This is all I want to note on this specific part of your reply, for the issue with the SD: we will wait and see how things develop.

 

Have fun and enjoy your day!  

[SkipperCH]

To shortly target the moderation style of the NA forum - I know of their methods. We will try our best here to keep the forums peace and make sure the forums guidelines are respected. further than that we have no interested in escalating things or suppressing opinions. In a perfect world the job we mods are doing here wouldn't even be needed. 

[Andrewbassg]

24 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

If that is the case, then fair play - I'd much rather mediocre premiums were released than OP ones (even if the latter are now nerfable), at least if they're fun...

I think SD overperfomed in one specific area. Dd hunting....

 

Edit: Ah, now that I've read the whole thread I see the point. Well....yes. While I was there, In many ways I tried to support the team's efforts to rebuild the community. Well...things come to a head when the roadmap video came out and I was the first on NA to understand that it meant the removal of stacking.

So.....yeah..

[UnderDuress]

WG’s treatment of SanDiego is still funny to me.

 

Real life: famous for providing fleet AA protection.

WG: let’s make its gimmick deleting DDs and brutalising cruisers by giving it a main battery reload. But let’s not go crazy with AA here, wouldn’t want to kill too many planes.

[Miragetank90]

If San Diego is even a little bit like ''Austin in tier 8'', it will be a good ship. 

And it doesn't need radar. 

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

If that is the case, then fair play - I'd much rather mediocre premiums were released than OP ones (even if the latter are now nerfable), at least if they're fun...

San Diego's set up was always going to be difficult to balance. I can understand the nerfs, really, esp. as she can make use of Heavy HE/SAP without a concealment penalty - that testing version was capable of a 14 gun broadside with 2640 damage per shell, and 36mm pen, on a 5 second reload. Something like 443,000 SAP DPM before the MBRB comes into play.  With 36mm pen.

 

My Bayard would like a word, because she's got half that DPM, even with IFHE - (12 gun broadside, 2200 per HE shell, 37mm pen, 7.5s reload = 211,200 ). Mainz, too - 12 guns, 1700 per shell, 38mm pen, 6s reload = 204,000).

 

(I don't have the maths for this at the moment, but LWM calculates the MBRB affected SAP DPM of testing San Diego to be 441,000, so presumably the potential DPM of testing San Diego + Heavy SAP was at least 485,000. I've looked at my Smolensk, which has Heavy HE, and using the same calculation she has a DPM of 422,400. With 22mm of HE pen (26 with IFHE). And that version of San Diego can see see tier VI. Atlanta, btw, is 326,700)

 

I'm sure San Diego has a lower range than either but if you can work the opportunity, that was a ludicrous potential damage output for any small cruiser to have. 

 

 

[SkipperCH]

Vor 6 Stunden, invicta2012 sagte:

I'm sure San Diego has a lower range than either but if you can work the opportunity, that was a ludicrous potential damage output for any small cruiser to have. 

Since San Diego's range is public I can tell you it's 16km base. 

[Panocek]

7 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

San Diego's set up was always going to be difficult to balance. I can understand the nerfs, really, esp. as she can make use of Heavy HE/SAP without a concealment penalty - that testing version was capable of a 14 gun broadside with 2640 damage per shell, and 36mm pen, on a 5 second reload. Something like 443,000 SAP DPM before the MBRB comes into play.  With 36mm pen.

 

My Bayard would like a word, because she's got half that DPM, even with IFHE - (12 gun broadside, 2200 per HE shell, 37mm pen, 7.5s reload = 211,200 ). Mainz, too - 12 guns, 1700 per shell, 38mm pen, 6s reload = 204,000).

 

(I don't have the maths for this at the moment, but LWM calculates the MBRB affected SAP DPM of testing San Diego to be 441,000, so presumably the potential DPM of testing San Diego + Heavy SAP was at least 485,000. I've looked at my Smolensk, which has Heavy HE, and using the same calculation she has a DPM of 422,400. With 22mm of HE pen (26 with IFHE). And that version of San Diego can see see tier VI. Atlanta, btw, is 326,700)

 

I'm sure San Diego has a lower range than either but if you can work the opportunity, that was a ludicrous potential damage output for any small cruiser to have. 

 

 

Imagine removing gimmick like MBRB or SAP first, that can't be WG

 

Sandy, unlike every other T8 CL and true to Atlanta at T7, is stripped of survivability - 16mm plating if memory serves me right, 89mm citadel, no heal, no smoke, no speed. If defensive options are so thoroughly out the window, it better have some quality dakka then.

[SkipperCH]

Vor 7 Minuten, Panocek sagte:

no heal,

Quote from the devblog:

Zitat

• Added the “Repair Party” consumable, with the following characteristics:
  • Action time: 28 s.
  • Cooldown time: 80s.
  • Number of charges: 3.
  • HP healed per second: 139
  • Citadel damage recovery: 50%

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/308

[mcboernester]

10 hours ago, Verblonde said:

As you've probably seen, San Diego got another nerfing; this resulted in this thread on NA: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254404-more-san-diego-nerfs/

 

Presumably, the Americans care more about this sort of thing because SD is historical, as well as being - y'know - American?

 

Anyway, the reason I mention this (besides it perhaps being of mild interest generally) is that it's interesting to note the - IMO - over-reaction of the WG staff person that locked the thread at the end. Whilst we may not always agree with the people running the EU forum, they generally don't try and flat-out stamp on topics of discussion where WG aren't covering themselves in glory (with trying to lose criticism of CVs etc. in endlessly long single threads to be taken into consideration)...

First off NA is its own little world, therefore placing a complaint on an EU Forum about their moderation will help nobody.

 

Second, why do people even disguss about testships in a super early phase? It's so pointless... Locking this thread was the right call as it will lead nowhere. The only persons that can say if those nerfs are justified are the Testers which obviously still have a NDA on her. 

 

But just a hint -> those are the SAP DPM Values of her compared to Austin. 

 

[Panocek]

2 minutes ago, SkipperCH said:

Quote from the devblog:

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/308

Then I've missed that one.

 

Inb4 next step, AP only Minitaur of sorts to conveniently bypass Heavy HE skill

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, SkipperCH said:

Since San Diego's range is public I can tell you it's 16km base. 

Thanks! I would wonder about how effective SAP would be at that range (we know Atlanta's shells are mortar shells at any distance).

 

49 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

Second, why do people even disguss about testships in a super early phase? It's so pointless... Locking this thread was the right call as it will lead nowhere.

I'm interested in their approach., esp. with San Diego. It's like watching WW1 gunnery practice - they're aiming short, then aiming high, and the target is obviously somewhere in between.  It's a sensible process, but I do wonder why they've gone for 8 and 5 second reloads when they've just released a line of small cruisers with reloads between 6.5 and 5.5.....

 

If they don't like the fuss over testing then maybe WG should revert to the test ship practices we had a while back where concept ships had fake names (Columbia, Giulio Bruto, the Le Terrible analogue etc) rather than announcing a named ship - it would make it so much easier to work on a ship's mechanics without the constant chorus of disappointment because WG's concept ships don't match the player base's view of what the *actual*  ship would be. 

[SkipperCH]

This is WG's approach of open communication. Each and every change is published. And the copy ships like Lappland for example were to test concepts, not to test a ship that would get implemented. And seeing a ship perform well in battle that is an upcoming premium ship might even help sales. 

[Panocek]

28 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Thanks! I would wonder about how effective SAP would be at that range (we know Atlanta's shells are mortar shells at any distance).

Based on datamine, Sandy uses the same shells as Austin and Sherman, with 404 for air drag, thus ballistics should be closer to these than good ol dual purpose mortars.

[Onsterfelijke]

Just easy as it's working in test fase to decrease DPM and increase AA more like the Dutch cruisers amount but WITH flak 5-8 pufs should be enough.

[mcboernester]

30 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

 

I'm interested in their approach., esp. with San Diego. It's like watching WW1 gunnery practice - they're aiming short, then aiming high, and the target is obviously somewhere in between.  It's a sensible process, but I do wonder why they've gone for 8 and 5 second reloads when they've just released a line of small cruisers with reloads between 6.5 and 5.5.....

 

If they don't like the fuss over testing then maybe WG should revert to the test ship practices we had a while back where concept ships had fake names (Columbia, Giulio Bruto, the Le Terrible analogue etc) rather than announcing a named ship - it would make it so much easier to work on a ship's mechanics without the constant chorus of disappointment because WG's concept ships don't match the player base's view of what the *actual*  ship would be. 

Not really offtopic but -> there was a reason that the NDA lift for CCs was shortened to a couple of days a few years ago-> back in the day they could already show very early alterations and ppl constantly kept reeeeing about it like " this is op" or "this is bad" even though those ships where nowhere near release ( for example CQR and Kremlin with Radar, minotaurs first alteration was shooting HE, the AP only Stalingrad... ).  All those things have been changed over the course of their testing, just as they do with newer ships, and one thing that happened here constantly was that players saw a very early vid and where like "oh nice im gonna get this one, seems strong", even though it had already been nerfed to normal levels. 

 

For Sandy it feels exactly the same here, with the difference that all ppl can rely on ATM are patchnotes, so nobody even knows how the ship feels in a normal battle. And while i can see how a unicum can judge it from those stats alone i hardly doubt the broad mass can get somewhat accurate assumptions out of a 0.5 sec reload nerf for example. 

AN ADDITION HERE: https://github.com/WoWs-Builder-Team/WoWs-ShipBuilder   A tool i highly recommend as you can already get the dispersion graphs / ballistics / shell trajectory from it , as well as all the stats. Those screenshots above are from that tool. 

 

What i want to add her as a personal note -> Since I'm part of those test ship players ( or as i got called already, WG Slave :<) until the supership release there hasn't been a ship / line where i said "this is broken".  In fact there has been a lot of balancing to adjust power levels , be it a ship like Weimar who had to be tuned down quite heavily or the 2nd german dd line which had the opposite issue.   Unfortunately the super US can lay havoc after those recent changes / buffs to her Tactical Squads which i personally didn't wittness as i wasn't playing in that time. 

[Seraphice]

Indeed, she was overperforming quite a bit. NDA still binds everyone, but in this case, really, there was no other expectation than a nerf.

Considering the redesign, and quite substantial buff she was given in https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/308

 

In any case you can always refer to boggzy's reply.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

[principat121]

11 hours ago, SkipperCH said:

I can't talk about her performance due to NDA reasons - Just repeat what Boggzy revealed. That she is/was over-performing in extremes I haven't seen before.  

 

8 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

Indeed, she was overperforming quite a bit.

 

You could switch the names from San Diego to Nakhimov and all statements about the ship would be still true and valid. All testers agree that the ship overperforms.

But "somehow" WG treads one ship other than the other...