Sumbarine counterplay.

[El2aZeR]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:56 AM, Cuddly_Spider said:

Submerged subs are slow as hell and the splash damage area of a depth charge, as far as I know, is 800m *radius*.

 

Let me repeat, 800m RADIUS.

 

A single depth charge (not an entire bombing run, but one single barrel) covers an area of 2km^2.

 

If you just get *touched* by that blast it knocks out modules most of the time, which can render the sub harmless.

 

Submarines can be countered. You're just not doing it right.

 

This is wrong. Ship dropped depth charges have an 800m radius. Air dropped ones however have a mere 375m and will only cause damage within 300m.

Subs can only temporarily lose their torps or their ping. Engine and rudder can only be lost to torpedo strikes which you should not take outside of sub vs sub engagements anyway. Permanent loss of armaments does not occur.

 

Please educate yourself on the game's mechanics before commenting on them.

[Figment]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Engine and rudder can only be lost to torpedo strikes

Thought those modules can get damaged by regular shells and ASW as well. Lost those regularly as a sub (especially depth rudder seems very fragile) without being hit by torps.

 

Flooding, fires etc. can also be deadly, since repairs are often limited, and you don't want to leak oil (regular occurance) due to being very visible and trackable.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Figment said:

Thought those modules can get damaged by regular shells and ASW as well. Lost those regularly as a sub (especially depth rudder seems very fragile) without being hit by torps.

 

Flooding, fires etc. can also be deadly, since repairs are often limited, and you don't want to leak oil (regular occurance) due to being very visible and trackable.

 

If so it is an incredibly rare occurrence. I've spent time testing it in the training room multiple times and never lost engine nor rudder to any kind of shell nor ASW damage the AI inflicted on me. In fact I can only think of two instances in which I did during my entire time playing subs both testing and post release, both of which involved torps. This is why the Last Stand skill is a noob trap.

(Tested only using German subs, didn't bother with US ones as they are comprehensively worse in almost every relevant metric.)

 

Flooding actually deals very little damage funnily enough (9.9% of max HP without modifiers which is the 2nd best out of all classes, almost the same as cruisers/DDs with 10%). Fires are devastating (30% of max HP without modifiers) but I found those to be rather uncommon and when they occur just spend a DCP charge on it.

I can think of only a few instances in which I used all my DCP charges (yes, I use superintendent) and this is without too much thought into when to use it. All of those battles went well into the lategame. Frankly when this nerf happened it seemed rather placebo to me like almost all sub nerfs and this is still my perception today. Given that this is a class with hilariously overpowered stealth and vision control capabilities, 4 charges is more than plenty.

I found oil spills to be almost a complete non issue. Not only are the intervals fairly long, making it rather easy to juke, most of the time enemy players will be too busy dealing with other stuff to watch empty water.

[Pukovnik7]

12 hours ago, Figment said:

Question? Why would they need speed? They got range. All they need is range over you and a sub getting spotted in an area. :/ I've killed about 3 subs with Kongo, 5 with US T4 BBs, a couple with the new Brits and a couple more with Russian and Italian low tiers and I rarely play any of those... Position close to the front is important, doing the spotting yourself is not really the goal. Noticing chokepoints and its targets however is. Providing close support to DDs is as well.

 

Speed is important because a fast ship could force the submarine into position where it will be spotted. I do that often when hunting torpedo destroyers - they are stealthier than gunboats I tend to play, so I need to use the terrain and map borders to keep them away and maybe even spot and kill them. Engine boost is an excellent tool.

 

Of course, submarine does have the advantage of being able to submerge, but it can still be proximity spotted unless it goes to maximum depth.

 

And I don't know why, but while playing subs and cruisers I have had several games where it was only battleships, cruisers, a couple of submarines and maybe a CV or two. No destroyers. So while I agree that spotting by myself is not usually important in a battleship or even a cruiser, it can be in some cases.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

Situationally agreed, but that depends on the sub in question as well. Some have 6.4+ surface detection, so that's not the same. Dive and evade is dependent on having an escape route as well. It's not a foregone conclusion you can get away if the sub hunter catches you with your pants down and the airborne ASW in the area is alert. Those ships you mention above CAN devastate you with 4 + ASW strikes with ease as only a few need to hit.

Agreed.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

Agreed on the ASW that it's commonly evaded for light damage only, if it's improperly lead and the sub is not actively spotted at any point, they're not a big threat. Not irrelevant, if you force multi-pings the direction becomes known. Hence I don't drop on the first swirl as it gives no sense of orientation. If torps come from a different direction than the ping this gives a sense of direction though.

 

Agreed, though I commonly change heading and maybe even speed after each ping precisely for that reason. There were also situations where I'd launch torpedoes dumbfire, like a destroyer, or launch them dumbfire and only ping when they approached the target.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

However, with changes I propose in terms of range of torps, deep water torps, reduction of situational awareness and decreasing concealment over time within the vicinity of ships, you wouldn't need to be an expert sub hunter to deal with subs. People like Deckeru always read over those posts, being the biased people they are. He doesn't comprehend I'm not advocating for subs as is, but the premise of subs and the overhyping that the status quo is completely impossible to deal with, which it is not. As I've frequently said though, it's too hard for the less situational aware, it's frequently counter intuitive on how you play against them if you have next to no experience with them and DDs in particular are too vulnerable.

 

The changes I propose should also increase adrenaline rush from cat and mouse, I'd have vulnerable ballast tanks, chance of hull breaches from compression at max depth (especially when damaged) and oxygen tank damage.

Agreed. I do think those would be good changes.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

From most poor players yes, as said before, people don't learn to think like a sub and the swirl is seen as a target to fire at directly, which means most will miss as they don't even try to lead. You'll do better in the future knowing what you do yourself to avoid drops.

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Agreed, though many ships have only two drops and since submarine can move in essentially four directions (straight forward, left, right, reverse) getting a drop is essentially a gamble.

 

I often drop ASW airstrike behind the ping though as I have noticed many submarine players tend to slowly reverse while pinging.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

That's true for DDs as well, they just do it better IMO as they have better situational awareness, lateral torp drop options and IMO better maneouvrability.

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Agreed, though I will note that destroyer torpedoes - due to having to be launched from longer range - are more likely to be thrown off by simply zig-zagging.

 

Hence why I think submarines should have only unguided torpedoes and use submerged stealth to compensate for small number of launches.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

Yeah people are dumb, who knew? The fun thing is they stay in open water too, where you can keep pinging them with ease... If they used islands you can't actually lead the ping on them and even if you'd hit them, the torps would hit the island. Very sad the level of thought people put into these things.

Quote

 

Yeah, staying in open water is definitely a problem. I'd still say we need more maps like New Dawn, Neighbors and Land of Fire, as lack of cover on many maps teaches people to stay in the open water and far in the rear.

12 hours ago, Figment said:

The psychological warfare is only effective if the player is unaware of the sub's actual capacity to strike and they're therefore easily spooked. The ping is not an important weapon against me, instead, it provides me with the intel I need to counter. But yes, pinging targets you're not going to strike may cause premature repairs. But HE is no different to these players in that respect. If people press R too early, they'll do this in any circumstance against any threat. :/

 

I blame WG for not providing good instructions and tips in the loading screen for a lot of this insufficient basic knowledge.

Rather than instructions and tips, I'd say we need tutorial. It seems WG did introduce tutorial map? Not sure how good it is.

 

And rather than forcing repairs, it seems pinged ships regularly turn away, speeding towards the border in fear. Personally, I tend to turn in, but even so unless I am in a destroyer, pings are rather unsettling.

13 hours ago, Figment said:

Both are corrrect. DDs can do the same thing, only do more damage and more spotting damage on average. They too have psychological deterrence, though less as people are more familiar with them. Subs will become less scary over time as people learn to deal with them, so that effect will diminish. For now, there's a lot of needless and senseless fear that makes players do stupid things. :/ Thing is, a DD that broke a flank can continue to support another flank. Subs rarely can. Hence DDs are the better unit IMO.

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Yeah, they are. Though I did find a submarine easier to play than a DD.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

23 hours ago, Figment said:

And yet not the answer I gave. But then you're incapable of reading and context comprehension for years now.

At least for once you manage to keep a post short and simple.

And that answer of your's... well.. let the people in this thread decide on my tldr: about it...

[Corocotta15]

Subs destroy the game. Is the only thing I know for sure. And is not a question of dmg.

[Figment]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Speed is important because a fast ship could force the submarine into position where it will be spotted. I do that often when hunting torpedo destroyers - they are stealthier than gunboats I tend to play, so I need to use the terrain and map borders to keep them away and maybe even spot and kill them. Engine boost is an excellent tool.

Sure, if you need to do the detecting yourself, but it's a team game, so I don't expect slow moving ships to be the prime threat to subs  in terms of detecting them - it happens though. I've done it with the Kongo and US ships against subs trying to shotgun me, not realising I gave them no room to maneouvre so they bumped into islands and had to come up at bad angles. :3

 

As is though, BBs are the prime damage dealers with air strikes. Which can be troubling for various gameplay reasons. Mainly that most BBs aren't in the location they ought to be when a sub is detected (due to BB sniper syndrome) and therefore there's a skewed link between spotters and BBs.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

And I don't know why, but while playing subs and cruisers I have had several games where it was only battleships, cruisers, a couple of submarines and maybe a CV or two. No destroyers. So while I agree that spotting by myself is not usually important in a battleship or even a cruiser, it can be in some cases.

It can be and I've done so plenty, mostly you must lure the sub to you in those situations. Speed is less important if you need to cover less distance to reach spotting range after all. But as is, most my BB kills on subs are reacting to the spotting of others or attacks on others by subs.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Agreed.

Agreed, though I commonly change heading and maybe even speed after each ping precisely for that reason. There were also situations where I'd launch torpedoes dumbfire, like a destroyer, or launch them dumbfire and only ping when they approached the target.

That's generally good practice for a sub.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Agreed. I do think those would be good changes.

I'd even say mandatory... Unfortunately WG as is does not seem to see the need for such changes due to spreadsheet logic and that puts subs in the situation where they're not a huge threat, but experienced as a huge annoyance that "interferes" with and disruption of regular combat (for people who did not adapt their play and have a hard time with improvising/creating new strategies and learn new tools).

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Agreed, though many ships have only two drops and since submarine can move in essentially four directions (straight forward, left, right, reverse) getting a drop is essentially a gamble.

 

I often drop ASW airstrike behind the ping though as I have noticed many submarine players tend to slowly reverse while pinging.

Many sub players want to keep their nose on target and fear getting too close, so reverse is a pretty save bet. The other high chance is a full speed circle (not only to get butt torps on target, perpendicular movement to the ping and end up realigning for the next volley). Hence forcing a second ping ought to provide a lot of intel.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Agreed, though I will note that destroyer torpedoes - due to having to be launched from longer range - are more likely to be thrown off by simply zig-zagging.

There's a bit of a trade-off here, overall I think the damage output of having combined arms favours DDs and the damage per torp also favours DDs.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Hence why I think submarines should have only unguided torpedoes and use submerged stealth to compensate for small number of launches.

Generally unguided torps are better for stealth. It depends on whether you want the sub to give away its position to make countermeasures more likely to succeed.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Yeah, staying in open water is definitely a problem. I'd still say we need more maps like New Dawn, Neighbors and Land of Fire, as lack of cover on many maps teaches people to stay in the open water and far in the rear.

And since people steer and fire at the same time a lot of people don't like islands as they'll bump into them due to focusing too much on firing and too little on looking where they go. This is in part a multi-tasking skill thing.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Rather than instructions and tips, I'd say we need tutorial. It seems WG did introduce tutorial map? Not sure how good it is.

Never seen it afaik, so no idea. But tutorial missions are easily ignored, loading screens are not optional however. So combining the two would be great.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

And rather than forcing repairs, it seems pinged ships regularly turn away, speeding towards the border in fear. Personally, I tend to turn in, but even so unless I am in a destroyer, pings are rather unsettling.

Agree. Turning in is generally better unless you're giving it more broadside as turning into it will give you a higher exposing chance and range over the sub (possibly forcing it to surface near you). Turning away can help with a dodge, but it solves nothing else with the sub problem unless you can find cover or randomly hit the sub with ASW.

On 12/11/2022 at 1:56 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

Yeah, they are. Though I did find a submarine easier to play than a DD.

That's IMO mostly due to the opposition's actions and your own actions being fairly limited in scope and thererfore less complex decisionmaking is required as is. It doesn't need to be like that however. In my vision subs would be high skilled requiring sneak attackers with patience, impeccable timing and multiple onboard mechanics management/risk trade-off decision making skills as well as requiring certain psychological manipulation skills to get away from enemies.

[Cuddly_Spider]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:57 AM, El2aZeR said:

 

This is wrong. Ship dropped depth charges have an 800m radius. Air dropped ones however have a mere 375m and will only cause damage within 300m.

 

"Mere".

On 12/11/2022 at 1:57 AM, El2aZeR said:

Subs can only temporarily lose their torps or their ping. Engine and rudder can only be lost to torpedo strikes which you should not take outside of sub vs sub engagements anyway. Permanent loss of armaments does not occur. 

 

Of course. I never said "permanent" anywhere, did I? But if you're dueling with an enemy then removing their means to fight back for even 15 seconds or so should be helpful.

 

On 12/11/2022 at 1:57 AM, El2aZeR said:

Please educate yourself on the game's mechanics before commenting on them.

If there was a nice little explainer somewhere that detailed this stuff then I'd take a look, there isn't so I can't really be bothered getting that involved. I'm not really an avid follower of this game anyway - it's only subs that brought me back to it.

[Figment]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:03 AM, El2aZeR said:

If so it is an incredibly rare occurrence. I've spent time testing it in the training room multiple times and never lost engine nor rudder to any kind of shell nor ASW damage the AI inflicted on me.

Not sure where the AI aims though? Don't you get different results from facing players?

On 12/11/2022 at 7:03 AM, El2aZeR said:

(Tested only using German subs, didn't bother with US ones as they are comprehensively worse in almost every relevant metric.)

Could be the secondary gun module on the German sub picks up some damage? I'm not sure how the models create different interaction chances from splash or if the hitboxes are significantly different, but there are some differences in the model I'd agree.

On 12/11/2022 at 7:03 AM, El2aZeR said:

Flooding actually deals very little damage funnily enough (9.9% of max HP without modifiers which is the 2nd best out of all classes, almost the same as cruisers/DDs with 10%). Fires are devastating (30% of max HP without modifiers) but I found those to be rather uncommon and when they occur just spend a DCP charge on it.

I've killed quite a few subs with floodings though, especially if they just fixed the oil leaks. I find those very easy to use btw to get a sense of speed and direction, but it's indeed possible people don't pay close enough attention to them especially in the thick of battle or if they don't know that they even exist.

For sub vs sub combat, it's funny if you can ping them and they repair on the first torp.

On 12/11/2022 at 7:03 AM, El2aZeR said:

I can think of only a few instances in which I used all my DCP charges (yes, I use superintendent) and this is without too much thought into when to use it. All of those battles went well into the lategame. Frankly when this nerf happened it seemed rather placebo to me like almost all sub nerfs and this is still my perception today. Given that this is a class with hilariously overpowered stealth and vision control capabilities, 4 charges is more than plenty.

I think you're right there, 2 charges with a 3rd ought to be enough to force some complicated management choices on subs. But I mean, Russian BBs rarely need to use all their DCPs too.

On 12/11/2022 at 7:03 AM, El2aZeR said:

I found oil spills to be almost a complete non issue. Not only are the intervals fairly long, making it rather easy to juke, most of the time enemy players will be too busy dealing with other stuff to watch empty water.

As said, this might be true, but then again I think this might simply be something as learning to drive stick, once you know what to look for it becomes second nature to scan the surface for such signs if you know a sub has been engaged. But it definitely takes attention and people need to be able to create time to spend that attention. That's like with the swirl, it's often gone before people had a chance to look.

[Figment]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:49 PM, Deckeru_Maiku said:

At least for once you manage to keep a post short and simple.

And that answer of your's... well.. let the people in this thread decide on my tldr: about it...

You probably haven't even noticed what proposals for changes I've made because you instantly TLDR space out at the notion of someone not irrationally hating on subs.

I sometimes wonder how people who TLDR have the attentionspan to feed themselves.

[MoveZig]

My last 3 matches (Cachalot) were me going into a cap at the start of the match (staying behind the DD because not enough surface concealment vs. DDs and U-69), the DD getting killed, the flank being overrun and me being unable to relocate due to 27-knot speed at best or hide for long due to low dive capacity. Maybe it's different on the high tiers or Germans, but Cachalot feels like it needs to be on a strong flank.

[Hirohito]

4 hours ago, MoveZig said:

My last 3 matches (Cachalot) were me going into a cap at the start of the match (staying behind the DD because not enough surface concealment vs. DDs and U-69), the DD getting killed, the flank being overrun and me being unable to relocate due to 27-knot speed at best or hide for long due to low dive capacity. Maybe it's different on the high tiers or Germans, but Cachalot feels like it needs to be on a strong flank.

You don't really get outspotted in a sub vs a DD, except in some extreme niche cases, and.
And even if he bumps into your concealment range, you can dip down to periscope depth to nullify that advantage, and if he shoots he is at risk of being spotted for 20 seconds, which hurts him a lot more than it hurts you.
The other sub is irrelevant early on, as he cant hydrophone you until several minutes have passed in the game anyway.

[MoveZig]

1 minute ago, Hirohito said:

You don't really get outspotted in a sub vs a DD, except in some extreme niche cases

Plenty of DDs at t5-8 that have better than 6.4kms. But the rest is fair enough.

[lafeel]

Mostly I just go places I know they aren't.

[Hirohito]

3 minutes ago, MoveZig said:

Plenty of DDs at t5-8 that have better than 6.4kms. But the rest is fair enough.

My bad, for some reason I was thinking about the 5,9 km of Balao.

 

[El2aZeR]

7 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

"Mere".

Of course. I never said "permanent" anywhere, did I? But if you're dueling with an enemy then removing their means to fight back for even 15 seconds or so should be helpful.

 

If there was a nice little explainer somewhere that detailed this stuff then I'd take a look, there isn't so I can't really be bothered getting that involved. I'm not really an avid follower of this game anyway - it's only subs that brought me back to it.

 

Yes, mere. As in the enemy sub can easily outmaneuver it. 300m is literally nothing in this game thanks to speed compression.

 

This requires the sub to be spotted first and foremost. Given their extreme stealth capabilities this is already a stretch. Even if you do however DCP immunity period is long enough that they will get all their torps off. I'm also fairly certain shell fire cannot disable the tubes, though I'm not completely sure on that one.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did get a tube disabled just now in testing, but it required a direct hit which cannot happen if the sub is not surfaced.

 

There isn't. You gain this stuff by experience.

 

5 hours ago, Figment said:

Not sure where the AI aims though? Don't you get different results from facing players?

 

Could be the secondary gun module on the German sub picks up some damage? I'm not sure how the models create different interaction chances from splash or if the hitboxes are significantly different, but there are some differences in the model I'd agree.

 

I've killed quite a few subs with floodings though, especially if they just fixed the oil leaks. I find those very easy to use btw to get a sense of speed and direction, but it's indeed possible people don't pay close enough attention to them especially in the thick of battle or if they don't know that they even exist.

For sub vs sub combat, it's funny if you can ping them and they repair on the first torp.

 

I think you're right there, 2 charges with a 3rd ought to be enough to force some complicated management choices on subs. But I mean, Russian BBs rarely need to use all their DCPs too.

 

As said, this might be true, but then again I think this might simply be something as learning to drive stick, once you know what to look for it becomes second nature to scan the surface for such signs if you know a sub has been engaged. But it definitely takes attention and people need to be able to create time to spend that attention. That's like with the swirl, it's often gone before people had a chance to look.

 

I went with several Nevsky's or Hinden's to avoid DC air strikes along with a CV to spot me from long range so that shell dispersion made me take hits everywhere. Never did it break the engines nor the rudder. I've never lost them in randoms either except again in those two or three instances where I took a torp.

 

Never happened on the U-2501 either and it doesn't have a secondary gun. I might repeat the test on the US subs though and see what I can find.

It would be outright comical if US subs were vulnerable to losing their modules whereas German ones could not.

EDIT: Tested with Cachalot several times. Neither engine nor rudder was lost even once.

 

I didn't say subs cannot die to flooding, I said floodings themselves deal very little damage and as such often aren't that valuable in fighting subs.

 

Indeed. Or when they never DCP the ping at all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I always believed RU BBs should also lose one of their DCP charges tbh as that is supposed to be a weakness yet rarely is.

 

This would be fairly easily solved if oil spills got a visual indicator like torps tbh.

[Figment]

52 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I went with several Nevsky's or Hinden's to avoid DC air strikes along with a CV to spot me from long range so that shell dispersion made me take hits everywhere. Never did it break the engines nor the rudder. I've never lost them in randoms either except again in those two or three instances where I took a torp.

Weird, lost multiple modules and quite sure it was down to either depth charges or HE. Then again, not sure if I was surfaced at the time and whether the origin / radius of the explosion matters on where the hit registers.

 

Since the hitboxes for subs seem to be bigger than the sub to make it easier to count as misses may count as hits, I wonder if certain hitboxes absorb more than you would expect from the visual proximity to a module.

 

I’m very curious to learn more about these experiments though. Appreciate you making this effort and trying to find out more about the indepth mechanics. Don’t think many people tried to figure this out yet.

 

Has your elevator rudder not been hit either? This seemed to be one of my more frequent repairs when a module did get damaged. Unless detected at the time or stuck on ascending/descending near hydro, hardly a concern though.

52 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I didn't say subs cannot die to flooding, I said floodings themselves deal very little damage and as such often aren't that valuable in fighting subs.

I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. :) Just that the brunt of depth charge attacks (and HE strikes from Dutch cruisers) are often enough to deal so much damage a flood can finish it off. I presume they repaired too fast a little earlier to stop leaks or some such and couldn’t stop the flooding.

52 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

This would be fairly easily solved if oil spills got a visual indicator like torps tbh.

The visual indicators could do with some work. I wouldn’t mind spotted swirls giving more info on the sub’s orientation at the time.

 

Though practically I think pings in this system should not be allowed to be done in any orientation other than between torpedo angles.

 

I’d prefer pings to be 360 scope for mere situational awareness (have sonic torpedoes home in on engine sounds rather than pings, so you can just shut down your engine to stop the homing) and having those pings create directional info and ultimately triangulations between allied enemy ships that caught the ping for a map spotting after a couple pings.

[The_Norwood]

On 4/26/2022 at 2:23 AM, SodaBubbles said:

 

That's ridiculous. i do not envy the mods having to shoulder the task of explaining how wonderful this transcendentally stupid mechanic is.

 

So glad I have never played griefer ships against humans. I couldn't do that to another person.

Hits the nail  on the head, you'd have to be an absolute horror show of a person to even want to play that, or CVs in their current incarnation. Just screams out "I have no skill and want a win button!".

I really hope i never run into somebody irl who says they play subs or CVs, not 100% sure they wold leave that encounter with all their limbs.

[El2aZeR]

58 minutes ago, Figment said:

Weird, lost multiple modules and quite sure it was down to either depth charges or HE. Then again, not sure if I was surfaced at the time and whether the origin / radius of the explosion matters on where the hit registers.

 

Since the hitboxes for subs seem to be bigger than the sub to make it easier to count as misses may count as hits, I wonder if certain hitboxes absorb more than you would expect from the visual proximity to a module.

 

I’m very curious to learn more about these experiments though. Appreciate you making this effort and trying to find out more about the indepth mechanics. Don’t think many people tried to figure this out yet.

 

Has your elevator rudder not been hit either? This seemed to be one of my more frequent repairs when a module did get damaged. Unless detected at the time or stuck on ascending/descending near hydro, hardly a concern though.

 

I tried both surfaced and periscope depth. Module damage never occurred.

 

Frankly I didn't even know depth control could be disabled. That has literally never happened to me both in testing and after release.

 

59 minutes ago, Figment said:

Just that the brunt of depth charge attacks (and HE strikes from Dutch cruisers) are often enough to deal so much damage a flood can finish it off. I presume they repaired too fast a little earlier to stop leaks or some such and couldn’t stop the flooding.

 

I found that if you maneuver correctly after being briefly spotted it is pretty easy to evade most, if not all DC damage, as such even if you take a flooding it is of little concern. If you're continuously spotted however and players are able to make adjustments damage is unavoidable, so a flooding after you break contact may very well finish you off. This practically only ever happens if the enemy sub is in your area and lights you up though.

[Cuddly_Spider]

On 12/13/2022 at 9:10 PM, Figment said:

I’m very curious to learn more about these experiments though. Appreciate you making this effort and trying to find out more about the indepth mechanics. Don’t think many people tried to figure this out yet.

 

There are a few snippets of info lying around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It really isn't difficult to take on subs, and given their fragility they're hardly as terrifying as people are making out.

[El2aZeR]

8 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

It really isn't difficult to take on subs, and given their fragility they're hardly as terrifying as people are making out.

 

The picture you posted is only for ship dropped depth charges which have the natural disadvantage of requiring you to get right on top of a sub to kill it, affording said sub the opportunity to kill you in return. The AoE of air dropped ones isn't even half that.

And while we're at it, see that small red circle? That's the only area where your depth charges will deal full damage. Outside of that it gets reduced to 33%, meaning that for example Gearing depth charges deal 5100 inside the red circle but only 1683 inside the yellow one. This is among the better ones, Halland ones meanwhile as another example deal a mere 2k damage inside red and 660 damage in the yellow circle. It is entirely feasible for a same tier sub to just outright tank the depth charges of certain DDs as a result.

 

As for the video, If the sub had a brain the Cossack would have died or at least gotten crippled there.

And no, subs are far from fragile. It's just that the average player is too incompetent to play them just like with DDs. Subs are hilariously tanky when played right, far too much given their stealth.

 

While subs aren't nearly as overpowered as some people make them out to be, they are still laughably overpowered.

[Pukovnik7]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Figment said:

Sure, if you need to do the detecting yourself, but it's a team game, so I don't expect slow moving ships to be the prime threat to subs  in terms of detecting them - it happens though. I've done it with the Kongo and US ships against subs trying to shotgun me, not realising I gave them no room to maneouvre so they bumped into islands and had to come up at bad angles. :3

 

As is though, BBs are the prime damage dealers with air strikes. Which can be troubling for various gameplay reasons. Mainly that most BBs aren't in the location they ought to be when a sub is detected (due to BB sniper syndrome) and therefore there's a skewed link between spotters and BBs.

Bolded part is actually what is the main problem I have with submarines... but it made me realize that the main issue with submarine and anti-submarine gameplay may be aircraft carriers. Long version here, since it should be in the CV thread, but the main reason why BBs snipe is because CV threat cannot be countered by angling - and you need room to maneuver. You also need room to maneuver against the submarines, but there islands are actually useful.

 

Still, it is a bit of an issue with submarines as well, though they are vulnerable to islands so...

On 12/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Figment said:

Many sub players want to keep their nose on target and fear getting too close, so reverse is a pretty save bet. The other high chance is a full speed circle (not only to get butt torps on target, perpendicular movement to the ping and end up realigning for the next volley). Hence forcing a second ping ought to provide a lot of intel.

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Thanks.

On 12/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Figment said:

Generally unguided torps are better for stealth. It depends on whether you want the sub to give away its position to make countermeasures more likely to succeed.

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Yeah, but submarine player has ability to do that anyway. When I played a sub for these few games (haven't had time to play WoWS at all last few days), I usually went for unguided torpedoes. Or I'd launch torpedoes and only ping at the last moment, or if I saw I misjudged the aiming.

On 12/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Figment said:

And since people steer and fire at the same time a lot of people don't like islands as they'll bump into them due to focusing too much on firing and too little on looking where they go. This is in part a multi-tasking skill thing.

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Yeah, running into islands was probably what taught me not to stay in the binocular way all the time.

On 12/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Figment said:

That's IMO mostly due to the opposition's actions and your own actions being fairly limited in scope and thererfore less complex decisionmaking is required as is. It doesn't need to be like that however. In my vision subs would be high skilled requiring sneak attackers with patience, impeccable timing and multiple onboard mechanics management/risk trade-off decision making skills as well as requiring certain psychological manipulation skills to get away from enemies.

Agreed.