Sumbarine counterplay.

[NewHorizons_1]

On 4/26/2022 at 9:50 PM, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

I'll want a copy of 'Submarine Counterplay', thank you.

I suspect the envelope, it was scribbled upon the back of, has slipped between the floorboards at WG's headquarters.

[Nit0]

7 hours ago, Ubertron_X said:

Actually I found that finding an mostly stationary, unsuspecting target that does not at least have hydro to be very scarce (even BBs and there are a lot of Germans around). Which is why I see most of my torps launched from 6km or more. I freely admit that I have not yet the art of shotgunning yet, however if you do so your target absolutely needs to die else you will very probably find yourself within 2km assured hydro detection very soon.

Most of the people commenting here have no experience shotgunning either, or experience playing submarine at all, or they have tried and  perform like crap, but still write as if they are experts on the matter.

 

It's a lot of stuff that should be changed about submarines, personally I think the game don't need a new class, but hey ho, it's not our decision. I have played submarines now, about 50 game's or so. I'm no expert, I average about 50k damage at tier 8, but I do better than most of the other players writing here, because they (those I have checked stats on) have zero submarine games, or have yet to do a 100k dmg game in one (even though they claim it's easy to shotgun battleships left and right). 

I think the best you can do is to play submarine (and all other classes), that way you are better prepared when facing one in battle.

[Mcfly666]

What we're seeing now is sunk-cost fallacy in action, they're doing a 'special-operation' with subs. If only the world could band-together, pool their resources and give them a bloody good slap.

 

submarines I mean.  

[Panocek]

8 hours ago, Adm_Lindemann said:

Yeah... although no one asked them to do it.

Boss asked, that should be enough for an answer 

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 8 Stunden, Deckeru_Maiku sagte:

Yeah, send me more potato T4 CV players to have fun with in Yubari/Orion... Especially seems to act as a potato controlled planes magnet, considering I recently downed 28 planes in a battle without getting sunk by those two (!) CVs going after me exclusively until I sunk one of them and watched the other getting sunk a minute later by a teammate...

So.. maybe playing T4 in something else than in a CV might be a better advise?!?

[Figment]

I still don't get what's so hard about combatting subs. I've only been sunk 4 times by them and kill about 7 a day. :/ I do notice other people IGNORE subs so I can kill more for free exp, but really, is it THAT hard for you to device a strategy?

 

 

I dunno, maybe it's because I've played infiltrator (cloaker) for 6 years in PlanetSide 1 where stealth stalking was my second nature? I used to be really good at locating enemy infiltrators without the use of Dark Light (basically infrared night vision) by simply shotgunning or 'nading the spots I'd hide if I even sniffed the presence of an enemy infil (usually corners and along walls opposite to the fastest route so people wouldn't bump into them). I'd spot the slightest shimmer since I'd be so used to watching my own shimmer and minimizing it (I went as far as to tap crouch 80m corridors past enemies which would minimize the shimmer of movement - only to get plasma 'naded by allies trying to get in the same door and spamming area of effect weapons at the enemies holding the corridor. Hooray for friendly fire...).

 

NOTE: if there's anything I've learned as an infiltrator in PlanetSide it's that people prefer a straight line to get from A to B. NO MATTER WHAT THREATS ARE IN BETWEEN. They'll run as infantry into fields of sentry turrets, tanks and aircraft, guns blazing. Me? I sneaked around, but that was time consuming and people want action NOW, no matter how frustrated they got of it for being blown away, they'd never try something else. Same for enemy players, I used to know half the enemy teams by name and playstyle and these people would hardly ever change their trick ponies. I don't think most knew just how predictable they were as certain types of players. The kind of objectives they prefered, the type of weapon deployed, the lack of creativity once they learned something worked for them. The same is true for players in WoWs, but you can predict more by ship (and skill, but I don't monitor that and I don't monitor individuals in this game as you don't come across the same ones constantly in randoms - though I've used observation of prefered locations in late night ranked games against people I played with and against with fun results as hunter DD).

 

For me playing subs gives me a good sense of their movement patterns and gives me a huge edge when taking them on, asking myself questions:
 

- Where would I go to flee?

- What would I do when spotted?

- Where did it start off/was it last seen and how far could it have gotten since?

- Which of my allies would be its primary target?

- Can I make myself the primary target by looking clueless about it, without giving it a proper lead and thus invite it to get ever closer till it is within hydro range / has to turn a corner and run into a waiting me while it's at a bad angle?

- What are the escape options and which one would give me positional (dis)advantages later on?

- Which of my allies have ASW within range if I'd spot it now?

- How long would I be exposed if I rush to expose it now?

- Which movement options create further problems down the road if dive time runs out?

- How much dive time would it have remaining and can I press it to completely run out of dive time?

- How do you flee and minimize getting back in position to uphold a high DPS?

- What speed can this sub make? (Don't engage it if you can't keep up, cut it off or ambush it - so let it close the distance to you by forcing it to come aim around an island!).

- What was the last known speed and orientation of the sub?

- How long till the next ASW drop?

- Do I use one ASW deliberately a bit to a side to drive the sub to the other side?

- Do I have line of sight on it with any main weapons?

- Can I force the sub down with torps and/or HE without getting shot at? (Note: subs dive if they see torps in their vicinity - they'll almost never hit, but they do consume their dive time and every second of dive time counts).

- If not, where can I do this (safely)?

- What is the field of vision of the sub in terms of situational awareness and what lead would he need to get torps on me?

- If I approach the sub, what angle will his torps have with respect to me?

- Can I make it to halfway the sub without requiring repairs?

- How can I optimize my hydro usage to expose the sub?

- Are there any routes that get me close to the sub where I can use terrain to kill any guided torps / avoid proper leading?

- If he's hunting me, where will he try to ambush me?

- If he thinks I'm unaware of his presence, which island's side would he use to get to me as fast as possible?

etc.

 

 

If you're any good as a saboteur player (stealth DD in particular), you can read into sub captain thinking for the most part already intuitively.

 

When I read people's responses in threads like this, they act as if a submarine that dives evaporates into thin air and can't be tracked anymore and could suddenly be anywhere. That's just not true. If you or an ally spotted a sub once, or even its torpedoes, you have so much intel over their location you should be able to derive a counterstrategy. I think many of you are too keen on using and traversing sections of wide open water. I know many players fear going to the middle of the map period due to fear of crossfires and because subs often start there, but it's actually one of the safest places to be as there's usualy some islands around you can use to minimize both crossfires and submarine leading angles. Especially if you win the DD duels there you can make a big impact there and create a relatively safe region to engage the sub in (of course, depends on whether it has radar cruiser support).

 

And yes, non-pinged sub- torpedoes fired from close range are the best strategy for a submarine and unfortunately WG made it so you can fire these from below periscope depth. Nevertheless they've hardly ever made meunable to deal with that.

 

Still, some of you continue to claim that you can't kill subs with ships with poor ASW, such as Dutch cruisers in particular. But I've killed so many with Gouden Leeuw already, it's not even funny when people claim they have no defense against subs. Hell, even the Dutch air strike netted me a lot of periscope depth subs. Why? Because they don't actually have time to dive or run away like with other air strikes which sink after arriving.

 

 

 

I challenge you all to think more about anti-sub warfare and stop whining about "yes but what if it's an unicum". If it's an unicum, he'd kill you in anything if you fear unicums. But my advise is to just kill the unicum.

[Yedwy]

17 minutes ago, Figment said:

I challenge you all to think more about anti-sub warfare and stop whining about "yes but what if it's an unicum". If it's an unicum, he'd kill you in anything if you fear unicums. But my advise is to just kill the unicum.

I dont fear unicums and I have no problem beating them in surface combat given my ship is adequate for the task, I killed (and was killed at othet times ofc) by many a good player and some streamers as well but subs and cvs are a different matter

[Figment]

47 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

I dont fear unicums and I have no problem beating them in surface combat given my ship is adequate for the task, I killed (and was killed at othet times ofc) by many a good player and some streamers as well but subs and cvs are a different matter

How often have you been killed by a sub since their introduction?

 

 

For me, FOUR times. Total. I'm sure you're a better player than me, so shouldn't that make you wonder?

 

 

And I don't avoid them, I actively go out of my way to take them on. I mean, I should be more prone to getting killed as I technically should be engaging them more often than others. And I do it with Dutch cruisers constantly, the type of ship that you lot keep saying has no capacity to fight subs.

 

Below was the first four matches of a day where I encountered subs. And that's without the spotting damage and subsequent allied kills I created with my actions on three other subs.

 

I mean, I don't need to take anyone serious who says they can't take on subs with a Dutch cruiser, because they're clearly just as crap as a 43%er in normal combat when it comes to sub hunting.

 

 

NB: Below was done with a Lion in open water, dealing with BOTH subs attacking me at the same time, half the time being in a crossfire.

PS: the replays.

 

20221111_102543_PHSC109-Johan-de-Witt_14_Atlantic.wowsreplay
20221111_105824_PHSC110-Gouden-Leeuw_52_Britain.wowsreplay
20221111_113951_PHSC110-Gouden-Leeuw_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay
20221118_223658_PBSB109-Lion_42_Neighbors.wowsreplay

And don't call this anecdotal evidence, because as you can see by the dates, this is structurally how I play against subs match after match. It's not even funny how predictable sub players are and their skill level is completely irrelevant.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

You sound a bit like me. Be careful with that :D

[Figment]

7 minutes ago, AtaIante said:

You sound a bit like me. Be careful with that :D

People just don't want to hear they're crap at something, especially if they're pretty good at other things. This thread is just one giant case of self-reinforcing Dunning-Kruger. :/

[Yedwy]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

How often have you been killed by a sub since their introduction?

Killed? Not 2 often but plauged and forced to abandon position to either hunt them or flee from them quite often and if a good player is in it you can do little as a surface ship

[WorthyOpponent]

After seeing this topic countless times and 61 replies later I just realized the title is "sumbarine" and not "submarine"

[Figment]

46 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Killed? Not 2 often but plauged and forced to abandon position to either hunt them or flee from them quite often

So what you are saying is you actually have no actual problematic issues other than some sense of entitlement to be left alone to play as you always have?

 

Why shouldn’t it force you to move? Why shouldn’t it make you flee or abandon a position you held? If a DD stealth torps or spots you, do you sit still? No.

Quote

and if a good player is in it you can do little as a surface ship

Except exposing or killing them and ensuring they don’t have good angles on you… Exactly like with other sub players.

 

Sorry, but that’s just not true no matter how often you repeat it. Might work for propaganda but ad nauseum repeating of a lie of convenience is not evidence of anything.

 

Again, if what you say would be true I’d have died more than four times to subs and none of those four times would have been down to me making mistakes. They all were down to me. It can’t be the case that I never encountered a good sub player. I’ve killed sub players with 80% WR on that sub over hundreds of matches. So clearly your statement is false.

 

What is true is that the majority of players has no ffing clue how to hunt or support hunting a sub, or even respknd to or deal with subs on their flank in the first place (making flanks implode without good reason) and this is why unicum sub players exist: clueless players allow sub players to have an unnecessarily large impact on the match result.

 

 

If you allow a sub to take you on on its terms you are at fault, period. Because you control everything about the engagement, often even including their weapons.

[humpty_1]

the stupid white marker needs to be visible for longer you sere it zoom its gone.lol

[NewHorizons_1]

23 hours ago, CapnGebs said:

Time to dust off the old T4 ships in port :)

Time to dust off Mass Effect.

[Figment]

8 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Time to dust off Mass Effect.

I recommend Return to Monkey IslandTM.

[Figment]

10 minutes ago, humpty_1 said:

the stupid white marker needs to be visible for longer you sere it zoom its gone.lol

But then people would aim for that and the sub would be gone even longer.

 

I'd prefer it that at periscope depth a sub would slowly but surely lose concealment value in the vicinity of enemy ships (at <6-7km distance "eventually the wake and periscope are spotted") up to 80% of surface spotting distance and that their torp range was shorter (max 8-10km) so ASW is more often in proper range of them. And of course, subs shouldn't target surface ships from below periscope depth. And at periscope depth torpedoes should be deep water torpedoes.

 

These fixes should make subs more than fine in terms of concealment play.

[Yedwy]

18 minutes ago, Figment said:

But then people would aim for that and the sub would be gone even longer.

 

I'd prefer it that at periscope depth a sub would slowly but surely lose concealment value in the vicinity of enemy ships (at <6-7km distance "eventually the wake and periscope are spotted") up to 80% of surface spotting distance and that their torp range was shorter (max 8-10km) so ASW is more often in proper range of them. And of course, subs shouldn't target surface ships from below periscope depth. And at periscope depth torpedoes should be deep water torpedoes.

 

These fixes should make subs more than fine in terms of concealment play.

Sounds as an improvement to current situation but WG doesnt care, they are convinced all this is fine

[Figment]

6 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Sounds as an improvement to current situation but WG doesnt care, they are convinced all this is fine

They just look at the spreadsheets and there a certain amount of average damage, death rate, hit rate, etc. is considered fine. And from that perspective it probably is fair and balanced. I mean, there are ships that deal a lot more damage and have more impact. There are ample ways to deal with subs, but you must be able to come up with a plan that suits the various potential situations and quite frankly most players don’t have that ability. Or don’t want to develop it.

 

Problem is the interaction experience with a poorly educated playerbase in terms of awareness and creativity. The perception that subs are risk free is only partially true - if the sub is a passive scout.
 

Not every sub can do shotgunning well, certainly not from any angle and target. Getting to the optimal angle for that takes mostly as time, patience and dive time management. It is not always possible to get somewhere undetected with limited speed, range, the clock ticking

 and dive time, but the perception amongst the rest of the players often is it is. There are however ways to get spotted by unnoticed threats (aircraft, radar, hydro, being surfaced, staying at periscope depth near enemies and not noticing DDs nearby (they do get extra concealment vs subs) and then there is blind fire ASW, which if used correctly can be very deadly.

 

Still, there should be more tension and adrenaline in the gameplay and both players - no matter how average - must have the idea that it took some effort, setting a limited or more risky/dangerous high risk/high reward attack window helps.

 

A good player would likely still catch them off guard, which is of course, the point of a sub. The amount of time one needs and thus how exposed people become should make the difference between a good and bad player though and it should be a bit harder.

[Pukovnik7]

11 hours ago, Figment said:

How often have you been killed by a sub since their introduction?

 

And again you miss the point. It isn't just about how good sub is at killing stuff. It is how good it is at shaping a battlefield.

When sub is present, destroyers cannot contest the cap properly because they will get permaspotted and killed. Smoke is useless because you'll get pinged and torpedoed. This:

1 hour ago, Figment said:

if the sub is a passive scout

is precisely where submarines are most dangerous at. Sure, homing torpedoes are annoying as hell. But it is the submarine's ability to spot with impunity that is the main issue with the [edited] class.

[Figment]

28 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

And again you miss the point. It isn't just about how good sub is at killing stuff. It is how good it is at shaping a battlefield.

No, the point made here was very specific on a personal, tactical level. Give me a sub as enemy and any ship I have will simultaneously shape the battlefield more due to player quality over the local enemy players (on the whole), while likely I’ll end up killing that sub (or subs) too, since nobody else can be bothered to even consider developing a safe way to kill them.

 

 

Generally though they’re not. Far from it. In a densely packed field they’re a mere nuisance. They however can be if you make the enemy sub into that by your own actions that amplify the sub’s power.

 

People let them by scurrying off, dispersing and staying far from allies and head to the open, deep ends of the map, ultimately due to falsely attributing subs with excessive killing power. A thing which they don’t have if you play ships properly.

 

Which people don’t, that’s simply on them, no matter how much they project their failure on the scapegoat that the sub is.

28 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

When sub is present, destroyers cannot contest the cap properly because they will get permaspotted and killed.

This isn’t true.

 

First off, contesting a cap can be done beyond rushing in to cap. Like with a Marceau, you first clear the area, then cap. A sub being present and outspotting you is no different from facing an enemy DD with a DD that is outspotted.

 

There are plenty of ways to get around this. Ignore the sub at first, stay out of its range and targeting and it’ll have to reposition. Which usually means it gets closer. If you’re a captain worth any salt you’ll be able to engage the sub at a distance where your spotting difference doesn’t matter because the sub is close enough to be detected and approached and overwhelmed.

 

And if you have any decent allies, those who don’t just run off, you can map-ping the area where the sub is ( you can use the spotted indicator for by poking your ship’s nose or rear around an island corner and see when you get detected torped at and hopefully pinged and request blind fire ASW till someone hits something once you get a bit of an idea where it is. And then it should be dead very fast

 

I usually do this myself with close support BBs and cruisers while engaging enemies as normal and pushing the cap and enemies back at the same time.

28 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Smoke is useless because you'll get pinged and torpedoed.

It’s not useless, but you clearly sit in open water without an escape plan, which is excessively dumb for a good player faced with a known mechanic. Why aren’t you employing this near an island so you can run any torps after getting pinged into local terrain?

 

Smoke is very useful because you can force the sub to attempt multiple pings and get a bearing on its direction and location, which you can relay to your allies.

28 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Sure, homing torpedoes are annoying as hell.

Easy as pie to dodge laughable pieces of uselessness you mean. It is basically an open invitation of “I’m here, come kill me”.

 

The ping gives you an angle to avoid (never rush straight at a ping, zig zag and circle such that you can turn into the torps and slow doen so they always pass by your nose), meanwhile make the sub turn on the spot or while backing up slowly, allowing you to get closer and reduce the spots it could be. It becomes more stationary and if he is targeting you the escape route becomes unclear to it.

 

If approaching is too hard, don’t. Just spam HE/SAP or even AP at its likely location, while you’re near an island that can block any torping attempt. Knowing the island is next to or half in front of your ship limits both the angle at which a sub is a threat and determines the minimal angle it should have with respect to you and the island, giving you a high degree of potential area to eliminate from the potential places it can be. You know approximately how far it can be based on the torpspread, its range and some other characteristics.

28 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

This:

is precisely where submarines are most dangerous at. […]

But it is the submarine's ability to spot with impunity that is the main issue with the [edited] class.

I can spot with impunity with a lot more ships. Hell, Gouden Leeuw nets me more average spotting damage than my average sub outing. And deals more damage with air strikes alone. If I don’t want to be seen, I’m not.

 

Subs who just spot are a niche nuisance. I’ve done 150K spotting in a sub, but that’s just one BB worth of spotting. I generally do more in a Gearing. If you don’t make it work for a spotting. Reason is a DD is much easier to relocate, while still useful, while subs tend to quickly fall behind.

[Figment]

Just netted another sub kill. Stock Shiru. Nice hard hitting, well balanced ASW spread, bit like two X patterns and two drops. Sub was dead in a single volley. Killed 3 other ships as well, 93K damage total, won the game. So clearly I was completely neutered throughout the match, just like you lot would be (apparently).

 

Actually, it was...

 

Oh and their sub ended last on their team. So OP (and this was a slightly above average player as well) and our sub did okayish, with a less than stellar player. Weird huh, how these OP ships keep ending up with arbitrary results. Almost as if they have limitations and are very situational.

 

 

But alas, I should not be able to counter it! Right. Sorry! Forgot it again. How dare I go after oil leaks, jump it from behind an island chain in the middle of the map I used as a buffer and potential escape routes in case of ping and let it come close enough and even detected (egads it happens) and then jump over to slaughter it. As usual. It's almost... as if there was a plan to do something against that type of class... How would you call that... Counterstrike? Counterpart? Shopping counter?

 

20221201_002959_PJSD207-Shiratsuyu_41_Conquest.wowsreplay

[Pukovnik7]

10 hours ago, Figment said:

First off, contesting a cap can be done beyond rushing in to cap. Like with a Marceau, you first clear the area, then cap. A sub being present and outspotting you is no different from facing an enemy DD with a DD that is outspotted.

 

It is significantly different. I play gunboat destroyers and I generally don't have any issues hunting down and killing torpedo boat destroyers. Why? Because a) they know they cannot win a gunfight against me, b) they cannot make themselves invulnerable to either my guns or torpedoes, c) they generally don't have the concealment necessary to stay in the cap while being chased. So I basically wait a bit for the support to catch in and then go in and contest.

 

Submarine? They a) can win a fight against a destroyer because they can attack from range whereas destroyer cannot, b) can make itself invulnerable by diving and c) has far better concealment than even torpedo destroyers when surfaced. So unless submarine significantly misplays, ambushing it is impossible, and unlike torpedo destroyers I find I am not enough of a threat to keep submarine away simply by placing myself between it and the ships I am screening. And submarine can submerge, which means that I cannot simply maneuver to push it into position where I will be able to spot and kill it, the way I can do it with torpedo destroyers.

 

So yes, bolded part is completely innacurate.

10 hours ago, Figment said:

There are plenty of ways to get around this. Ignore the sub at first, stay out of its range and targeting and it’ll have to reposition. Which usually means it gets closer. If you’re a captain worth any salt you’ll be able to engage the sub at a distance where your spotting difference doesn’t matter because the sub is close enough to be detected and approached and overwhelmed.

 

Uh... you mean, two kilometers? Because submarine can dive literally whenever. And see above about the lack of ranged options against submarines on destroyers.

 

And even submerged submarine is generally fast enough to see you coming and escape.

10 hours ago, Figment said:

It’s not useless, but you clearly sit in open water without an escape plan, which is excessively dumb for a good player faced with a known mechanic. Why aren’t you employing this near an island so you can run any torps after getting pinged into local terrain?

 

Smoke is very useful because you can force the sub to attempt multiple pings and get a bearing on its direction and location, which you can relay to your allies.

Smoke is basically a replacement for islands. If there is an island close enough to do what you are suggesting, then you don't need smokescreen at all, unless you are in a carrier game. And no, I never sit inside a smokescreen, unless a carrier is present. Smoke is best used to break line of sight to get away - but against submarine, even that is of limited utility. And if you have both carriers and submarines in the game... yeah. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

And as I said, not all maps have good islands.

10 hours ago, Figment said:

Easy as pie to dodge laughable pieces of uselessness you mean. It is basically an open invitation of “I’m here, come kill me”.

 

I said annoying, not dangerous. Yes, they are easy to dodge, but pings are bloody annoying.

 

Also, you keep forgetting that this is not about "destroyer vs submarine" in a vacuum. Even just dodging torpedoes can be extremely dangerous when you are being spotted by the sub.

 

In the end, submarines are just another tool to keep people camping at the backline.

10 hours ago, Figment said:

The ping gives you an angle to avoid (never rush straight at a ping, zig zag and circle such that you can turn into the torps and slow doen so they always pass by your nose), meanwhile make the sub turn on the spot or while backing up slowly, allowing you to get closer and reduce the spots it could be. It becomes more stationary and if he is targeting you the escape route becomes unclear to it.

 

And again, I do all of that when possible. Generally, I approach submarine at an angle or in a spiral, precisely so that I don't get a bunch of torps to the nose.

 

But see above: it is never about submarine alone. If submarine couldn't share its spotting data with other ships, then it would be no problem. But since it can...

10 hours ago, Figment said:

If approaching is too hard, don’t. Just spam HE/SAP or even AP at its likely location, while you’re near an island that can block any torping attempt. Knowing the island is next to or half in front of your ship limits both the angle at which a sub is a threat and determines the minimal angle it should have with respect to you and the island, giving you a high degree of potential area to eliminate from the potential places it can be. You know approximately how far it can be based on the torpspread, its range and some other characteristics.

Quote

I have done that, and it usually doesn't work at killing the sub, just at keeping it away. And if I am limited to being near an island, I cannot properly spot or kill enemy destroyers, which just shows that measuring submarine's influence by damage numbers and how easy it is to kill in some conditions is load of garbage.

11 hours ago, Figment said:

I can spot with impunity with a lot more ships. Hell, Gouden Leeuw nets me more average spotting damage than my average sub outing. And deals more damage with air strikes alone. If I don’t want to be seen, I’m not.

 

Oh, don't start me on Dutch cruisers. You know, saying "this pile of crap doesn't stink as much as that other pile of crap" does nothing to prove that other pile isn't actually a pile of crap.

[Ubertron_X]

1 hour ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Submarine? .... c) has far better concealment than even torpedo destroyers when surfaced.

Last time I looked submarine surface concealment at T8 to T10 was in between 5.6km to 6km and there are at least 15 destroyers at T8 to T11 that can match or beat the lower value (many of them are torpedo destroyers indeed) and a total of 47 destroyers that can match or beat the upper value.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

[lup3s]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:59 AM, Figment said:

I do notice other people IGNORE subs

^ this

 

Sub gets spotted and you see no or limited ASW going in; often because (too) many players have a very limited situational awareness.

And then DK kicks in: as they fail to see their own shortcomings, they're being convinced the fault doesn't lie with them but with the enemy (player or ship).