Submarines interaction can´t get worse? Now on PTS..

[Figment]

Just now, Andrewbassg said:

That's actually a not half bad point. Still you are missing some key elements, namely 1) They have no clue what role they should fulfill, therefore they cannot design an interaction. 2) it is a classic, bad example of speadsh#t based analysis and decision making. it is always in reaction and never in anticipation. It doesn't matter how much one spread it, it is still sh#t.

As I said elsewhere, to counter such spreadsheet logic in design, you have to make them be able to relate to your issues. These people are not prone to emotional arguments, hence you must demonstrate and provide alternatives, rather than argue with feelings. There's a huge limit to what a spreadsheet can indicate and they're blissfully unaware of it since alpha. One of their problems seems to be they think in optimal interaction scenarios and hardly ever consider abuse or stimulated behaviour.

 

 

Aside of stimulating BBs sitting in the back, think of their Kitakami implementation for instance.

[Nibenay78]

12 minutes ago, Figment said:

They add to the risk, but given they're replacing DDs in the slots, it's not a huge trade-off in comparison.

Not by itself it makes a huge difference, as both are hard to spot, both have massive alfa and both provide spot.

 

However DDs are more interesting.

 

* They fire torps more rarely

* they can't teleport through your space - you usually have a  vague idea where they are (or RPF)

* DDs provide defensive measures for you as a bigger ship (smoke/hydro)

* DDs by their very nature usually end up screening for torps and encountering eachother

* in RTS times they could give quite nice AA with DefAA going. Nowadays it's mostly if you have a Halland or similiar you might become an unappetizing target for the CV

 

[TerryFoxLegendary]

this game is going downhill fast ... I didnt mind superships although somewhat broken ... but the sub experience is the brain child of a total potatoe.

[Figment]

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Not by itself it makes a huge difference, as both are hard to spot, both have massive alfa and both provide spot.

 

However DDs are more interesting.

 

* They fire torps more rarely

* they can't teleport through your space - you usually have a  vague idea where they are (or RPF)

* DDs provide defensive measures for you as a bigger ship (smoke/hydro)

* DDs by their very nature usually end up screening for torps and encountering eachother

* in RTS times they could give quite nice AA with DefAA going. Nowadays it's mostly if you have a Halland or similiar you might become an unappetizing target for the CV

Agreed, those are very nice boons to the DD playstyles, yet the DD is not considered OP and the only thing the subs seem to really be judged for is their alpha strike damage on ships that can't disable double pings.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

21 minutes ago, Figment said:

the only thing the subs seem to really be judged for is their alpha strike damage on ships that can't disable double pings.

You should do more reading and less writing. One of the actual main gripes against subs, if not THE main gripe, is their unmatched stealth and their ability to completely disappear and STAY disappeared for what is in practice an indefinite amount of time. You should watch some videos from superunicums - PQ just posted another - where a sub is completely invisible and gets to annihilate you from point blank. And even IF he screws up and has to surface, it takes a Hindenburg and a Conqueror everything they've got - point blank - to kill him, and that includes stopping defending them from the ships they were actually engaging. They can sneak up on any ship and kill it without warning. No other ship can do that.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

3 hours ago, GeniusMage said:

He's divisive because, while skilled, he's also incredibly toxic.

To you maybe. WG certainly thought so, and that alone makes him a good guy in my book. You, not so much apparently.

AND NONE OF IT MATTERS. The truth is the truth, no matter who speaks it.

[GeniusMage]

Il y a 11 minutes, PsychoClownfish a dit :

To you maybe.

Not to me in particular.

To everyone he stat shamed for years, and there's a lot of people.

To other CCs. Literally the first thing he did after getting kicked out of the CC program was insult another CC on stream (which is also a TOS breach on Twitch).

Probably to other people I'm forgetting.

Il y a 19 minutes, PsychoClownfish a dit :

The truth is the truth, no matter who speaks it.

Man gets salty the moment he clicks "Ready." Makes it hard to separate valid opinions from salt.

Only while in port is he fairly calm.

[Nibenay78]

5 hours ago, Figment said:

Agreed, those are very nice boons to the DD playstyles, yet the DD is not considered OP and the only thing the subs seem to really be judged for is their alpha strike damage on ships that can't disable double pings.

They offer more interesting stuff than subs was my point. Both offensively and defensively. 

 

subs only purpose is to kill others and as they rarely engageother subs, they become like the CVs. not DDs that often "cancel eachother out". They offer nothing to their own team but occational spot, and often not even that. Even at a point blank engagement they can't give support fire if they already shot their torps just before.

[SodaBubbles]

7 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Also a CV on each team.

 

That's insane. It's absolutely nuts that anyone could think that is fun. 

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

10 hours ago, lovelacebeer said:

Im certainly not a fan of homing torps as WOWS has designed them but to be totally fair they did get developed during the war, but the allies quickly developed very effective countermeasures. 
 

Also homing torps did sometimes used to turn around and hunt the u boat that launched them.

Homing Torps in WWII however were passive, not active like int he game.

 

Also, the effective coutner measures in turn reduced ship speed to 10 knots or so, because if they'd go faster, they wouldn't work anymore. (Which could actually be a NICE mechanic, at least for tougher ships. Activate the Foxer and you're immune to pings but your max speed is halved, for example)...

 

And, the germans actualyl developed Torpedoes that would ignore those counter measures, but due to how late they came, they iirc weren't deployed.

 

I also think it's utter garbage that your Damage Con is responsible for removing pings... those guys are overworked already....

[lovelacebeer]

42 minutes ago, GrossadmiralThrawn said:

Homing Torps in WWII however were passive, not active like int he game.

 

Also, the effective coutner measures in turn reduced ship speed to 10 knots or so, because if they'd go faster, they wouldn't work anymore. (Which could actually be a NICE mechanic, at least for tougher ships. Activate the Foxer and you're immune to pings but your max speed is halved, for example)...

 

And, the germans actualyl developed Torpedoes that would ignore those counter measures, but due to how late they came, they iirc weren't deployed.

 

I also think it's utter garbage that your Damage Con is responsible for removing pings... those guys are overworked already....

Very true also when Foxer was being used the ship couldn’t use its own ASDIC. The whole measure - counter measure developments in technology then were really incredible.
 

It’s such a pity WG have vastly over simplified submarine warfare, and at least from my perspective removed the actual fun of playing a submarine or even the thrill of submarine hunting.

[El2aZeR]

8 hours ago, Figment said:

Agreed, those are very nice boons to the DD playstyles, yet the DD is not considered OP and the only thing the subs seem to really be judged for is their alpha strike damage on ships that can't disable double pings.

 

And their ability to ensure that damage with practically no risk to themselves.

And their hilarious survivability.

And how laughably easy it is to do well in them.

And at T10 specifically their foolproofness.

And the fact that they almost completely lack counterplay.

 

If it were only torp alpha nobody would be complaining about subs.

Also I have no idea why you're so fixated on pinging when pinging is not the primary way to engage enemy targets with subs to begin with.

[Figment]

8 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

They offer more interesting stuff than subs was my point. Both offensively and defensively. 

 

subs only purpose is to kill others and as they rarely engageother subs, they become like the CVs. not DDs that often "cancel eachother out". They offer nothing to their own team but occational spot, and often not even that. Even at a point blank engagement they can't give support fire if they already shot their torps just before.

A little unnuanced, but, which makes the subs highly situational. But that isn’t the focus of the complaints. The “cheating aim” striking power from invisibility is considered the bad bit.

 

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

And their ability to ensure that damage with practically no risk to themselves.

Depends on the situation, but many ships have those abilities given circumstance where you can’t easily return fire and risk is really low if not present. Being shot at for full health from across the map is accepted. Being shot at for full health from island cover and out of detection range is accepted.

 

You know, like torpedoes from cruisers and DDs from smoke, or firing HE spam over islands with an Atlanta or Henry.

Your problem cannot be with firing from an undetected situation without being a major hypocrite. Your issue is with what you can do once targeted to detect and return fire or to detect them while they are unaware because of having to get close to it yourself most the time.

 

A sub once discovered can go out in one to two passes of ASW , provided the aim is well. That however, isn’t always the case and I think auto aim correct is part of the problem here as it directs fire to the turret, saturating it, and because depth charges fall at the wrong depth.

 

However. I have noticed that most players are terrible at leading subs. Most launch their ASW at the spot the sub was. Or at the wrong angle away from the spot since their approach vector was off. They don’t look at sub orientation when spotted and possible/likely routes. When you have someone who understands subs throw ASW at you, it can be devastating.

 

However, ASW from air strikes should be a two click action: start-end location of run. Including narrowing the spread by shortening the run. Not just start and auto-orientation from the ship. That would make ASW a lot more effective.

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And their hilarious survivability.

I find that disputable. I think the problem here is a perception issue on how much damage is thought to have been dealt vs how much is dealt and there’s IMO an issue with regards to how the depth charges work atm, where depth charges always explode at a fixed depth, no matter the depth at which the sub was spotted. Many depth charges are simply not aimed well. If they do explode right against the hull (which they rarely do), it deals pretty huge damage. Torpedoes between subs are also a lot of damage.

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And how laughably easy it is to do well in them.

It’s literally you do well, you do next to nothing (maybe kill the opponent sub) or you don’t do anything with these subs. So I have to disagree there.

 

It is far easier to get consistent damage with a Vermont or DD. And more of it. So honestly this is subjective.

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And at T10 specifically their foolproofness.

Eh don’t underestimate the stupidity of people. :P

 

Sorry, but that there’s almost no counterplay is just not true, even for the current bad design (which I don’t agree with either, I just don't like exagerating for an agenda). :/

 

There is a lot you can do to track, herd and repress and kill subs and forcing to the surface. Whether those are the proper ways (I don’t agree they are), is a different matter. But that there is almost no counterplay is a lie and exageration for convenience argumentation and not based in reality. Some people even complained about not being able to find bot subs in coop! I’m really sorry, but that is just downright frustration from one’s own incompetence speaking.

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And the fact that they almost completely lack counterplay.

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If it were only torp alpha nobody would be complaining about subs.

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Also I have no idea why you're so fixated on pinging when pinging is not the primary way to engage enemy targets with subs to begin with.

Because of the large amount of “cheating magic homing torps you cannot escape” complaints.

 

I think you’ve got more of a striking chance firing without a ping though.

 

The whole ping implementation bothers me. For example, you can use ping to make BBs use their repair so others can burn ‘m down.

[invicta2012]

9 hours ago, lovelacebeer said:

Very true also when Foxer was being used the ship couldn’t use its own ASDIC. The whole measure - counter measure developments in technology then were really incredible.
 

It’s such a pity WG have vastly over simplified submarine warfare, and at least from my perspective removed the actual fun of playing a submarine or even the thrill of submarine hunting.

It's also worth saying that by 1943 the British had come up with their own "wolfpack" idea - squadrons of corvettes whose job it was to stake out known submarine transit routes to and from French submarine bases. Caused merry hell, too - HMS Starling's squadron sank fourteen U-boats in a year. There is an interesting sub mini-game/scenario in all that, but it's not something that could ever be in a PVP or PVE game. That type of co-operation is just not really possible. 

 

2 hours ago, Figment said:

A little unnuanced, but, which makes the subs highly situational. But that isn’t the focus of the complaints. The “cheating aim” striking power from invisibility is considered the bad bit.

 It is, but it's also their ability to turn up un-noticed and stick ten torpedoes into the side of an opponent. If a DD does that to you, you'll feel like you've misplayed or been fairly outplayed. With a submarine, you weren't given much of an opportunity to respond (at least not in their current iteration). I've seen the Notser video of him taking a sub through MID on Two Brothers and blapping Tier X cruisers who weren't even aware of a threat. He's probably the most WG friendly CC left and even he thinks it sucks. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

17 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

I've seen the Notser video of him taking a sub through MID on Two Brothers and blapping Tier X cruisers who weren't even aware of a threat. He's probably the most WG friendly CC left and even he thinks it sucks. 

I'm sorry but if those pepega cruisers couldn't see that coming then it's their fault alone. Subs almost always go through the middle. There is always that one guy that goes through the middle. If you play 2brothers not expecting anyone coming through there then you deserve getting punished for it

[lovelacebeer]

1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

It's also worth saying that by 1943 the British had come up with their own "wolfpack" idea - squadrons of corvettes whose job it was to stake out known submarine transit routes to and from French submarine bases. Caused merry hell, too - HMS Starling's squadron sank fourteen U-boats in a year. There is an interesting sub mini-game/scenario in all that, but it's not something that could ever be in a PVP or PVE game. That type of co-operation is just not really possible.  

I loved reading all about the tactics developed by Captain “Johnny” Walker, not to mention all the war games and strategy’s developed by the WRENS of western approaches. 
 

There is so much potential with submarine warfare as a totally separate and properly developed mode. It honestly beggars belief how WG could take everything fun out of submarine game play as well as make ASW an exercise in frustration. 

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

I'm sorry but if those pepega cruisers couldn't see that coming then it's their fault alone. Subs almost always go through the middle. There is always that one guy that goes through the middle. If you play 2brothers not expecting anyone coming through there then you deserve getting punished for it

I don't agree. You can say they should expect it, but what can they do about it? What spots submarines? Notser goes through the potential countermeasures in his video, and what is there? Hydro? Hope the sub misplays and runs out of dive capacity? It's a nonsense.

 

WG needs to put hydrophones back, but with a realistic detection range which reduces the quicker a ship is going (to an effective zero detection range at full speed). This way defending ships have counter play, rather than getting nuked if a sub manages to arrive nearby outside of the defender's hydro window.

 

The way it's current deployed is unbalanced, they've only done it that way to make subs feel like a class capable of dev striking opponents at will rather than something which might require player skill. 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

18 hours ago, GeniusMage said:

Man gets salty the moment he clicks "Ready." Makes it hard to separate valid opinions from salt.

This at least I understand, although I still don't agree. But when he shows on video how subs can maintain a dept at which they are invulnerable and can still attack others, not much interpretation is required. (And this is just one of many examples) And yet people dismiss it because it's Flamu doing the exposing. That's just idiotic behavior.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

1 hour ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

I'm sorry but if those pepega cruisers couldn't see that coming then it's their fault alone. Subs almost always go through the middle. There is always that one guy that goes through the middle. If you play 2brothers not expecting anyone coming through there then you deserve getting punished for it

I once got devstruck by a Balao in Epicenter. This was in the first three minutes, when I was still looking where to position. I was in Hindy with range mod and I was in the back, slightly wide of our spawn. First thing I knew he was there was because a clutch of torps were about to hit me broadside. No idea how he got there, but there he was. I've seen other examples of similar things happening. No screw-up on the side of the cruiser is required.

[Dutchy_2019]

2 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

I once got devstruck by a Balao in Epicenter. This was in the first three minutes, when I was still looking where to position. I was in Hindy with range mod and I was in the back, slightly wide of our spawn. First thing I knew he was there was because a clutch of torps were about to hit me broadside. No idea how he got there, but there he was. I've seen other examples of similar things happening. No screw-up on the side of the cruiser is required.

 

 

Because of their pretty much unlimited "Oh f****!" escape button, they can rush forward from the very start of the game with their speed without pretty much ANY risk. On the rare occasion they get caught, they dive and are safe, able to continue on their merry way. Add in stupidly fast homing torps, and there you go.

 

People here mention how submarines are slow. That argument is EXTREMELY deceptive. for two reasons:

 

(1): The "Oh f***!" dive escape allows them much more to move at full speed continuously, with virtually no risk where for other classes such behaviour is complete suicide (see the numerous jokes about DDs charging in and getting caught out).

(2): When being chased down, the speed difference is still small enough that it will take a very long time to get into effective depth charge range, while the surface ship is being exposed to the enemy, while still spotted by the submarine. 

(3): Somehow the projection of the subs location while being at periscope depth still feels off, making gun fire fairly ineffective. 

 

And before people argue that other classes also have "Oh f****!" button (smoke screens), that is a completely false comparison for a number of reasons:

 

(1): Smoke screens are LIMITED resources, unlike diving, which if played smartly, is practically unlimited.

(2): Smoke screens are mostly on LONG cooldowns, and if they are not, they do not last long. Unline the diving of submarines.

(3): Most smoke screens cannot be deployed at full speed, where diving can.

(4): Smoke screens to be effective force on most occasions players to sit still or move extremely slowly. Diving in a subamrine does not.

 

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

11 hours ago, Figment said:

Your problem cannot be with firing from an undetected situation without being a major hypocrite.

 

Except that is a hilariously dishonest narrative. A ship firing from cover or smoke requires external spotting, otherwise it is forced to take a direct engagement. Torpedoes fired from stealth are easily defeated, hence why they are allowed to be fired from stealth to begin with. If they were reliable, as they are with subs, then they'd be overpowered.

 

11 hours ago, Figment said:

When you have someone who understands subs throw ASW at you, it can be devastating.

 

Hardly. It is hilariously easy to juke out ASW due to their long approach times. This ironically means that if the enemy aims correctly, they're going to miss even more.

 

11 hours ago, Figment said:

I find that disputable.

 

Then you simply aren't playing subs correctly. T10 subs can easily survive half the team attempting to kill them with DC air strikes. In fact they can even survive several direct passes from DDs.

Lower tier subs are generally more punishing to mistakes in that regard due to their much slower underwater speeds, but they can still minimize damage by utilizing their far superior maneuverability.

 

11 hours ago, Figment said:

So honestly this is subjective.

 

It is not. Sub play is incredibly easy to the point where novices with a basic understanding of sub mechanics can rack up in excess of 200k damage consistently without prior playing experience. Literally the only way you don't end up with high damage totals is if your team rolls over the enemy faster than you can arrive at the scene (or you target ships that simply don't have high HP).

 

The objective requirements to do well in subs are very few, very easy to understand and apply.

 

11 hours ago, Figment said:

Eh don’t underestimate the stupidity of people.

 

I am well aware that even as easy as subs are they are still beyond the capabilities of the average player. It's both highly amusing and very sad.

 

11 hours ago, Figment said:

There is a lot you can do to track, herd and repress and kill subs and forcing to the surface.

 

Frankly while playing subs there are only 2 ways I found that reliably counters subs aside from relying on the enemy sub player to simply be dumb.

1. Force the sub to dive, then have a friendly sub spot it with the hydrophone consumable and engage, preferably with friendly support.

2. Have a hydro DD keep the sub spotted but DO NOT depth charge it as that is suicide, then let several other ships kill it with air strikes.

 

Naturally both are extremely situational at best.

 

Assuming the sub player actually knows what they're doing. attempting to hydro a sub with a cruiser is straight up suicide. Attempting to depth charge it is suicide. Radar can be defeated by a sub by simply diving to periscope depth and wait it out which does not take very long. Attempting to guess where it is with air strikes is at best unreliable. Often the first indicator you have that a sub is in the area are unavoidable torpedoes fired at point blank range heading straight to your ship. And even better, if you're spotted by something else subs don't even need to be on the surface to attack you, making them practically invulnerable and enabling them to literally camp you to death.

 

11 hours ago, Figment said:

The whole ping implementation bothers me. For example, you can use ping to make BBs use their repair so others can burn ‘m down.

 

This I will agree on. The ping mechanic is self defeating and a very poor attempt by WG to make what is a classic stealth assassin class, which does not belong in the game due to various reasons, stop being a stealth assassin class. Frankly WG seems to have no clue as to what the design direction for subs is supposed to be in the first place.

And this is what they have to show for after 2 years of public testing. Just one gigantic failure after another.

 

[Andrewbassg]

7 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

I'm sorry but if those pepega cruisers couldn't see that coming then it's their fault alone. Subs almost always go through the middle. There is always that one guy that goes through the middle. If you play 2brothers not expecting anyone coming through there then you deserve getting punished for it

 

 

Yo....

[OldSchoolFrankie]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:09 PM, Nibenay78 said:

I think I wet myself..

 

I feel there should be an option between "not interesting" and "i'm not sure"!!!

 

 

 

This time only hand-picked players received the survey? I can't remember which update I didn't get a poll for, but when it comes to submarines.

Somehow again typical for WG.

[Asatori]

They don't even provide a possible answer that really describes the size of the clusterFck that subs are. 

 

[Nibenay78]

3 hours ago, OldSchoolFrankie said:

This time only hand-picked players received the survey? I can't remember which update I didn't get a poll for, but when it comes to submarines.

Somehow again typical for WG.

I have no idea, these pop up occationally for me. I can guarantee it's not because of my serious answers.

 

WG: Did you like the new Swiss battleships introduced in 0.25.1?

Me: They are ok, but rework CVs really ruin the game.