[NA Forum] Several very big threads about "Separation of Economy from Camos" - worth reading!

[Yedwy]

9 minutes ago, HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS said:

I wonder if there will be another "from the bottom of the ocean" camo (which looks nice on Bismarck). 

While I appretiate the jibe its not the same boat, if we ever get the said ship in game least of our worries will be the camo on her… 

[britinmadrid]

53 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

There will be no problem with T6/7 in the new system (or indeed Tier VIII). The scaling becomes much more tricky on Tier IX and X and anyone playing those Tiers consistently and not achieving good combat results is likely to need Premium Time and Premium Ships to keep their economy ticking over. But that's OK.... isn't it?

This is the risk for WG, yes!

 

I was in the Beta (just lucky) and have spent money on Premium vessels and Premium time over the years. Last year that stopped forever with WG having spit on its customers one time too many. I am now free-to-play.

 

If WG makes Tiers IX, X and XI too unattractive to play then people may well migrate back down to mid tiers, thereby reducing profits. Of course, WG will then try to monetize those Tiers but they are on a slippery slope with their special-interest customer base being rather small. Make a fun game and people will give you the money willingly. Make it a grind and they will give you less. I am interested to see what will happen now that the Russian server (neutral/unprofitable) is its own entity while the EU server (cash cow) can flex its financial muscles. Will the pig-headed WG mentality adapt to the needs of the customers?

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

I wonder if there will also be some "rework" of the XP and credit costs to grind/buy ships and modules.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

On 4/25/2022 at 3:38 PM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

So... if someone has account on NA and can contact that guy for e-mail address all would be OK!

 

Anyone possibly knows someone on NA forum that can be contacted or, possibly, some EU forumite has account on NA?

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Adm_Lindemann]

On 4/26/2022 at 1:48 AM, SodaBubbles said:

It's not in-game.

And what's the issue with it?

[Verblonde]

On a related note, this thread may also be worth looking at for some: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254386-psa-special-premium-camo-after-conversion/

 

A selected quote from the OP: "For example. Kii has a type 10 camo, it does things. She also has a Kobayashi camo. It does much better things. (and its credit earning is being buffed from 20% to 45%)

Unless you purchase this camo before the changeover, it will not be possible to purchase or mount the economic abilities of a Kobayashi Permanent Economic Bonus to Kii after the update. Any players who have Kii without the Kobayashi camo will permanently have type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus, and any new Kii sold will also have a type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus. Only a Kii which possesses the Kobayashi before the change is allowed to enjoy this bonus. In essence, improved economic camo is being de-circulated from the new economy.

The same is true of the Eugen commander XP camo, the An Shan camo, the National camo for Graf Spee, of the designer camos for some tier 10 ships, and so on. If it is not the same as the effect of the basic premium camo for that ship, better or worse, the effect will not be available after the update."

[Yedwy]

58 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

On a related note, this thread may also be worth looking at for some: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254386-psa-special-premium-camo-after-conversion/

 

A selected quote from the OP: "For example. Kii has a type 10 camo, it does things. She also has a Kobayashi camo. It does much better things. (and its credit earning is being buffed from 20% to 45%)

Unless you purchase this camo before the changeover, it will not be possible to purchase or mount the economic abilities of a Kobayashi Permanent Economic Bonus to Kii after the update. Any players who have Kii without the Kobayashi camo will permanently have type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus, and any new Kii sold will also have a type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus. Only a Kii which possesses the Kobayashi before the change is allowed to enjoy this bonus. In essence, improved economic camo is being de-circulated from the new economy.

The same is true of the Eugen commander XP camo, the An Shan camo, the National camo for Graf Spee, of the designer camos for some tier 10 ships, and so on. If it is not the same as the effect of the basic premium camo for that ship, better or worse, the effect will not be available after the update."

Nope, I still want the refund for camos, I can pick the select few I want to keep for this reason or the other...

[Andrewbassg]

10 hours ago, Verblonde said:

On a related note, this thread may also be worth looking at for some: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254386-psa-special-premium-camo-after-conversion/

 

A selected quote from the OP: "For example. Kii has a type 10 camo, it does things. She also has a Kobayashi camo. It does much better things. (and its credit earning is being buffed from 20% to 45%)

Unless you purchase this camo before the changeover, it will not be possible to purchase or mount the economic abilities of a Kobayashi Permanent Economic Bonus to Kii after the update. Any players who have Kii without the Kobayashi camo will permanently have type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus, and any new Kii sold will also have a type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus. Only a Kii which possesses the Kobayashi before the change is allowed to enjoy this bonus. In essence, improved economic camo is being de-circulated from the new economy.

The same is true of the Eugen commander XP camo, the An Shan camo, the National camo for Graf Spee, of the designer camos for some tier 10 ships, and so on. If it is not the same as the effect of the basic premium camo for that ship, better or worse, the effect will not be available after the update."

Yep. I was just reading the thread. Still the language used is murky at best and leaves a LOT of room for misinterpretation. If its is deliberate or not.......is debatable.

This change is wholly unnecessary and uncalled for. Flags, signals  and camos were part of naval history and as such earned a rightful place in the game. Removing them...........just strengthen  the departure form historicity replacing it with ....something else.

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

Remember we are all judging this on the current state of game. We do not know what they will come up with next. So we know they will add more super ships, but imagine they add tier 11, 12 etc. and introduce more modern and expensive ships, maybe even super ships of lower tiers as side kicks to the tech tree ones. In any case players will wonder about their progress when all of these shiny conversion bonuses will be used up and new ones will be artificially limited. In the end all speculations do not matter, because we know the main WG motivation. It is not to improve the gameplay.

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

 

1 minute ago, Von_Pruss said:

Remember we are all judging this on the current state of game. We do not know what they will come up with next. 

Maybe vastly increased XP and credit costs to grind/buy ships and modules?

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

2 minutes ago, HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS said:

Maybe vastly increased XP and credit costs to grind/buy ships and modules?

It is all possible. But they will make it seem as if they gave us something in return for it. We are right in the middle of a real core game rework it seems to me.

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

4 minutes ago, Von_Pruss said:

We are right in the middle of a real core game rework it seems to me.

I wish we were, but instead of rectifying all the flaws of the core game, they are just fiddling with the economics - which have always been my least concern. If the gameplay sucks in so many ways, I really could not care less if I get some XP/credits more or less out of it.

[NewHorizons_1]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:41 AM, Leo_Apollo11 said:

"Separation of Economy from Camos: 4% dispersion bonus"

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254276-separation-of-economy-from-camos-4-dispersion-bonus/

 

Quote

@SolitudeFreak asked

Why is the dispersion bonus being removed?

@Ahskance    replied

Technical limitations made it prohibitive to alter every ship/gun in the game to account for this.  As a result, we elected to phase it out.

Yes, it must be soooo hard to not change the combat bonuses in the camouflages 

 

[Seraphice]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:16 PM, SodaBubbles said:

"'Ah, just found that statement in the dev blog, thanks for the reply though. One other thing, and not sure if this is already intended or not, but is there possibility for an in-game calculator for the bonuses? Something that can show you how much credits or xp bonus you can get while selecting whichever bonuses you want to run combined with those always-on baselines?"

Excellent idea!

 

"Good for gun-focused ships, bad for torpedoboats.  My Mutsuki will be more likely to get hit with almost nothing given in return.  Yes she does have two guns, and I do use them when necessary, but c'mon..."

This one too. It's a global nerf to DDs and cruisers, especially. 

 

""Let me make sure I got this right. Today when I need to grind out credits I play Kii/Kobiyashi. To maximise the credits I stack the normal credit flag plus all of the credit Dragon flags. But several of those dragon flags also come with XP/CXP/FXP bonuses that I don’t care about in this case, and are in fact wasted, particularly the XP, since I’m not paying to convert that “wasted” XP over to FXP. 
I think what I’m seeing is that since all of the camo/flag/dragon flags are being split out into their component parts, I can put the credit bonus only onto Kii where I want it, and save the XP bonus for tech tree grinds where it’ll do the most good. If so then this could be a nice improvement. "

 

If this is true, it could be awesome. It might -- dare I say it? -- be a change from WG that is actually good for the game. Color me shocked. 

We have no plans to introduce this into the UI. The spreadsheet calculator we provided serves as a way to compare results from before with the results after.
Gunboat DDs would not actually benefit that much, considering they are spotted and shot at more.
Yes this is true. You can use your credits on your missouri, your fxp bonus in clan battles, and your xp bonus when grinding. That is all possible.

 

 

On 4/25/2022 at 1:45 PM, Montrala said:

In reality this re-work is big nerf across the line, aimed to increase grind. Most of people will not notice it, until they will run out of bonuses they got in exchange for flags and new bonuses will not show up.

 

As to perma camos what is being "traded" is giving away guaranteed saving on battle cost (no matter performance or battle result) for promise of possibly more income if performance and battle result is favorable.

 

Overall model is to make F2P unsustainable and impossible grindy past T6/7 and make premium account to be barely sustainable if there is not real money sinked into bonuses and converting xp.

In any tier below T9 it will be a net positive outcome in terms of economy for almost all players, because the service cost in those tiers is so low.
In T9 and TX games, it should still even out to a net neutral result.
And your last statement is simply false. a majority of players will economically benefit from this system.
 

On 4/25/2022 at 2:48 PM, SodaBubbles said:

 

yeah, there was a guy on NA pointing out he had paid for the camos specifically for the 4% dispersion bonus. 

Obviously they want games to go faster and ships to die quicker, and removing that helps, especially when you multiply by thousands of games. The idea that it was technically impossible is absurd. 

 

 

this is not 'Obviously'  our goal. This is simply part of making camouflages ONLY visual and nothing else. If this has a drastic effect on the duration of games, we will have a look at this.

 

 

On 4/25/2022 at 6:18 PM, Bellegar said:

I just have two questions:

 

1. Why are we bothering with yet another temporary resource? Don't we already have enough of them in the game? 

 

2. How will WG ensure that post battle repair costs will not increase? Example: I press battle, but have a crash to desktop and die before I did anything. I would earn 0 credits, but my 10% decreased repair cost would still eat 10k out of the usual 100k repair bill (numbers are fictional for argument's sake and ease of calculation). How will this work in the future? A 10% credit increase will do nothing to offset this extreme example, as I would still earn 0 credits, but now have to pay the full 100k repair bill. 

 

 

@Sehales @MrConway @Crysantos help pls 

Of course there will be edge cases as the one you mentioned, but in general, in the games where you are actually playing, it should in general be a net positive, as the 10% on the 250k credits you earned is more than than the 20k off the repair costs.
We will be keeping an eye on the economy after this change, and if it turns out that this is really the case for a lot of players, we may end up changing things, depending on the situation.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

[Seraphice]

12 hours ago, Verblonde said:

On a related note, this thread may also be worth looking at for some: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254386-psa-special-premium-camo-after-conversion/

 

A selected quote from the OP: "For example. Kii has a type 10 camo, it does things. She also has a Kobayashi camo. It does much better things. (and its credit earning is being buffed from 20% to 45%)

Unless you purchase this camo before the changeover, it will not be possible to purchase or mount the economic abilities of a Kobayashi Permanent Economic Bonus to Kii after the update. Any players who have Kii without the Kobayashi camo will permanently have type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus, and any new Kii sold will also have a type 10 Permanent Economic Bonus. Only a Kii which possesses the Kobayashi before the change is allowed to enjoy this bonus. In essence, improved economic camo is being de-circulated from the new economy.

The same is true of the Eugen commander XP camo, the An Shan camo, the National camo for Graf Spee, of the designer camos for some tier 10 ships, and so on. If it is not the same as the effect of the basic premium camo for that ship, better or worse, the effect will not be available after the update."

this is correct. For now there are no plans to sell these improved permanent bonuses following the change.

 

 

2 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Yep. I was just reading the thread. Still the language used is murky at best and leaves a LOT of room for misinterpretation. If its is deliberate or not.......is debatable.

This change is wholly unnecessary and uncalled for. Flags, signals  and camos were part of naval history and as such earned a rightful place in the game. Removing them...........just strengthen  the departure form historicity replacing it with ....something else.

There will still be combat signals as a part of retaining this, as well as commemorative flags.
Camos will also not go anywhere, but will be visual only, separated from their bonuses.

There will be more information to come about the exterior separation with additional information. We will also try to provide additional answers to questions.

 

On 4/27/2022 at 8:33 AM, HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS said:

I wonder if there will also be some "rework" of the XP and credit costs to grind/buy ships and modules.

Not planned at least, as the economic change should be net neutral or net positive.

 

7 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

 

Yes, it must be soooo hard to not change the combat bonuses in the camouflages 

 

The idea is that camouflages will be ONLY visual, and nothing else. Whether you are running no camo at all, a basic one, or a special one, it should not have any affect on your ship, be it economically or combat statistic wise.
If we leave this bonus on the camouflages it defeats this purpose, and as Ahskance already mentioned, changing everything is technically just not an option.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

 

[NewHorizons_1]

15 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

The idea is that camouflages will be ONLY visual, and nothing else. Whether you are running no camo at all, a basic one, or a special one, it should not have any affect on your ship, be it economically or combat statistic wise.
If we leave this bonus on the camouflages it defeats this purpose, and as Ahskance already mentioned, changing everything is technically just not an option.

 

My concern here is this

On 4/25/2022 at 12:16 PM, SodaBubbles said:

Good for gun-focused ships, bad for torpedoboats.  My Mutsuki will be more likely to get hit with almost nothing given in return.  Yes she does have two guns, and I do use them when necessary, but c'mon...

So, to be fair is the dispersion** of torpedo spreads going to be reduced as well to compensate for the global gun accuracy buff.

 

** dispersion isn't probably quite the correct term, but there are uneven angles between the trajectories of torpedoes in a salvo.

[BruceRKF]

14 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

this is correct. For now there are no plans to sell these improved permanent bonuses following the change.

 

 

There will still be combat signals as a part of retaining this, as well as commemorative flags.
Camos will also not go anywhere, but will be visual only, separated from their bonuses.

There will be more information to come about the exterior separation with additional information. We will also try to provide additional answers to questions.

 

Not planned at least, as the economic change should be net neutral or net positive.

 

The idea is that camouflages will be ONLY visual, and nothing else. Whether you are running no camo at all, a basic one, or a special one, it should not have any affect on your ship, be it economically or combat statistic wise.
If we leave this bonus on the camouflages it defeats this purpose, and as Ahskance already mentioned, changing everything is technically just not an option.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

 

Just for clarification: the current signals will also be available as purely visuals? I would like that very much, since I can then finally flag my ships - symmetrically - with signals without having to take into account their performance boosts or how many I have left.

[Seraphice]

2 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

 

My concern here is this

So, to be fair is the dispersion** of torpedo spreads going to be reduced as well to compensate for the global gun accuracy buff.

 

** dispersion isn't probably quite the correct term, but there are uneven angles between the trajectories of torpedoes in a salvo.

There are no plans to change torpedo dispersion for now
 

1 minute ago, BruceRKF said:

Just for clarification: the current signals will also be available as purely visuals? I would like that very much, since I can then finally flag my ships - symmetrically - with signals without having to take into account their performance boosts or how many I have left.

Economic/special signals will no longer be available for mounting. Combat signals and memorable flags will remain however.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

18 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

Not planned at least, as the economic change should be net neutral or net positive.

While I appreciate the answer, my concern is that you might not be privy to such plans because they are made by others who might choose to not inform you in advance - so the existence of such plans is a possibility which cannot be excluded just because you don't know of their existence. 

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

8 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

So, to be fair is the dispersion** of torpedo spreads going to be reduced as well to compensate for the global gun accuracy buff.

Shhh, we might get ricocheting or overpenetrating torpedoes if you conjure up any parallels to guns! 

[BruceRKF]

10 minutes ago, Seraphice said:

Economic/special signals will no longer be available for mounting. Combat signals and memorable flags will remain however.

That's what I feared. Any reason why? The signals are already in the game, they masts are there on all the ships, why not let us aesthetically individualise our ships a little more? Could you bring the question up with the people responsible?

[NewHorizons_1]

1 minute ago, HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS said:

Shhh, we might get ricocheting or overpenetrating torpedoes if you conjure up any parallels to guns! 

DD mains:-

Hit to torpedo protection :

Hit to citadel** :

 

** Royal Navy CL & DD captains using single fire torp streams :

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

Just now, NewHorizons_1 said:

DD mains:-

Hit to torpedo protection :

Hit to citadel** :

 

** Royal Navy CL & DD captains using single fire torp streams :

What about HE torpedoes with incendiary warheads? Shimathunderer?

[Gnirf]

6 hours ago, Seraphice said:

We have no plans to introduce this into the UI. The spreadsheet calculator we provided serves as a way to compare results from before with the results after.
Gunboat DDs would not actually benefit that much, considering they are spotted and shot at more.
Yes this is true. You can use your credits on your missouri, your fxp bonus in clan battles, and your xp bonus when grinding. That is all possible.

 

 

In any tier below T9 it will be a net positive outcome in terms of economy for almost all players, because the service cost in those tiers is so low.
In T9 and TX games, it should still even out to a net neutral result.
And your last statement is simply false. a majority of players will economically benefit from this system.
 

this is not 'Obviously'  our goal. This is simply part of making camouflages ONLY visual and nothing else. If this has a drastic effect on the duration of games, we will have a look at this.

 

 

Of course there will be edge cases as the one you mentioned, but in general, in the games where you are actually playing, it should in general be a net positive, as the 10% on the 250k credits you earned is more than than the 20k off the repair costs.
We will be keeping an eye on the economy after this change, and if it turns out that this is really the case for a lot of players, we may end up changing things, depending on the situation.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

Hello, I think that I have browsed through a lot of pages both here and on the NA forum and I seem to recall a slight reduction in standard repair costs on T10 but one thing is that was only as far as I remember the random battle.

For me it is very important the "cost/income " adjustment in coop as I have bought many of the permacamos and premium/special ships for the acceptable results in coop. As the income is so much lower in coop and more dependant on which way the bots go the games with extremely bad results are more common, I have played 20 000 + games in coop and I buy the permacamo for the T10 more or less auto to be able to not think about the economy. As the repair note in coop are relative high compare to the income the buff to income vs the far higher service cost is to my experience very detrimental i.e. the standard service cost must be far more reduced in coop in absolute terms to make it neutral. I hope that this so called neutrality goal does not forget the coop players.  

[Bellegar]

6 hours ago, Seraphice said:

Of course there will be edge cases as the one you mentioned, but in general, in the games where you are actually playing, it should in general be a net positive, as the 10% on the 250k credits you earned is more than than the 20k off the repair costs.
We will be keeping an eye on the economy after this change, and if it turns out that this is really the case for a lot of players, we may end up changing things, depending on the situation.

Fair seas captains!
~Sera

First of all, apologies for forgetting to include you in my little summoning ritual! 

 

Thank you for that answer, but I'm afraid that it only confirms what I suspected. 

I fully understand my example was an extreme (I typically use hyperboles to get my point across, you'll have to forgive me), but it does apply to other less extreme cases. The point I was trying to make is you can't just change a fixed value to a value that depends on battle performance and declare everything will be the same. That's impossible. 

Currently, we can vastly reduce repair costs. A T10 premium camo is -50%. There's a signal flag for another -10%. That's a fairly massive increase in credit earnings. A flat 50% increase to credits earned isn't going to cut it on a 200k game. 

 

As you will be aware, some people here are... sceptical... (and I'm being very generous here!) when WG says things like "we'll monitor and adjust in the future". I want to remain constructive, so I'll leave it at that, but the essence of my posts is that I'm not convinced WG will get that compensation right. 

And I'm not even touching the completely different can of worms Missouri with its special mission is going to be... (I have to both laugh and cry at the "it's technically impossible to give Missouri owners a permanent 'baked in' credit bonus, so you'll get a mission", while now every permanent camo'd ship is getting a permanent credit bonus 'baked in')

 

I realise it's still very early, and I appreciate you yourself won't have a proper answer at this point that would satisfy me. But please consider that I'm just trying to voice my concern here. This is a massive change in the core mechanics of the game's economy, and WG seems to underestimate its implications. This bit is imperative, and cannot be stressed enough: "you can't just change a fixed value to a value that depends on battle performance and declare everything will be the same. That's impossible."