Separation of economic bonuses from camos and signals

[invicta2012]

On 4/22/2022 at 10:30 AM, BanzaiPiluso said:

I don't understand anything of what the explained. Why do they always make things so confusing? Is it the translation from Russian?

It is a little bit confusing. But they are *trying* to be thorough and not send the community into a collective conniption. 

 

Basically they are separating in-game aesthetics from in-game economics, and using this to re-work the game's economy.

 

Based on the what they've said, in the post-rebalance world, players who used to run just a camo + a basic signal in a game will get more Credits, XP, Free XP and Captain XP per game in the new system. However the days of signal-stacking for massive results from single matches look as if they are coming to a close. They are also removing the -4% dispersion buff (which most camos used to give) from the game, which comes across as an attempt to put Deadeye back into the game when no-one's looking. I'm not in favour of this last one, tbh. I think cruisers and DDs will feel that nerf quite heavily.

[FooFaFie]

I'm hoping this will lead us to the ability of making our own skins for our ships. Skins that everybody can see in the game. 

 

The wannabe artist in me has to be set free.

[Hades_warrior]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:35 PM, HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS said:

Permanent Camouflages.

"Post-battle service cost reduction bonus is replaced with credits bonus: for each 2% of the service cost reduction you get +1% credits instead." (Anyone mind doing the maths if this is better or worse?)

Im sure this is worse. And reason to less play TX ships...

We have -50% for service cost now, with that 1% instead we will have +25% credits which is not good enough amount of credits per battle to cover repair cost.

 

[Dazza4x4]

15 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Im sure this is worse. And reason to less play TX ships...

We have -50% for service cost now, with that 1% instead we will have +25% credits which is not good enough amount of credits per battle to cover repair cost.

 

Another way to try and chase pve players into random battles

[Bald_Rookie]

1 hour ago, Hades_warrior said:

Im sure this is worse. And reason to less play TX ships...

We have -50% for service cost now, with that 1% instead we will have +25% credits which is not good enough amount of credits per battle to cover repair cost.

It is. Atleast for tech tree t10.

Did a test run in randoms, and had an bad game that also was a defeat.

A bad (defeat) Random game in T10 Gearing, with wows premium time and perma camo.
Base service cost of T10 - 180 000 cr, after change 150 000 cr.
Clan base has full (- 15%) reduction on service costs.
I didn’t put any credits earning signals on.

Credits earnings Now

Recieved 159 083cr
Modifiers: Type 20 perma-camo ( +20 % ) 31 817cr

Spent (with base costs - 180 000 cr)
Service -65 % (clan-bonus - 15% + T10 perma camo - 50%) - 63 000cr
Ammo -20 820 cr

Total earnings + 107 080 cr

After change the credits earnings (if i understand it correctly)  would have been..

Recieved 159 083 cr
Modifiers:
"Converted Type 20 bonus" ( +20 % ) + 31 817 cr
Pema camo service costs changed to credit-income (-50% ==> + 25 %) +39 771 cr

Spent (with base service cost of T10 - 150 000 cr)
Service -15 % (clan-bonus - 15%) - 127 500 cr
Ammo -20 820 cr

Total +42 580 credits

So with the new system you still would have made an profit in this bad game, but it would have been 64 500 cr less than now.
And it's worse if you don't belong to a clan with good bonuses.

Regards.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

2 hours ago, Bald_Rookie said:

It is. Atleast for tech tree t10.

Did a test run in randoms, and had an bad game that also was a defeat.

A bad (defeat) Random game in T10 Gearing, with wows premium time and perma camo.
Base service cost of T10 - 180 000 cr, after change 150 000 cr.
Clan base has full (- 15%) reduction on service costs.
I didn’t put any credits earning signals on.

Credits earnings Now

Recieved 159 083cr
Modifiers: Type 20 perma-camo ( +20 % ) 31 817cr

Spent (with base costs - 180 000 cr)
Service -65 % (clan-bonus - 15% + T10 perma camo - 50%) - 63 000cr
Ammo -20 820 cr

Total earnings + 107 080 cr

After change the credits earnings (if i understand it correctly)  would have been..

Recieved 159 083 cr
Modifiers:
"Converted Type 20 bonus" ( +20 % ) + 31 817 cr
Pema camo service costs changed to credit-income (-50% ==> + 25 %) +39 771 cr

Spent (with base service cost of T10 - 150 000 cr)
Service -15 % (clan-bonus - 15%) - 127 500 cr
Ammo -20 820 cr

Total +42 580 credits

So with the new system you still would have made an profit in this bad game, but it would have been 64 500 cr less than now.
And it's worse if you don't belong to a clan with good bonuses.

Regards.

As expected. The sound you're hearing is the sharpening of harpoons. May the whales process this information at their own discretion.

 

[300ConfirmedKills]

Vor 2 Stunden, Bald_Rookie sagte:

It is. Atleast for tech tree t10.

Did a test run in randoms, and had an bad game that also was a defeat.

A bad (defeat) Random game in T10 Gearing, with wows premium time and perma camo.
Base service cost of T10 - 180 000 cr, after change 150 000 cr.
Clan base has full (- 15%) reduction on service costs.
I didn’t put any credits earning signals on.

Credits earnings Now

Recieved 159 083cr
Modifiers: Type 20 perma-camo ( +20 % ) 31 817cr

Spent (with base costs - 180 000 cr)
Service -65 % (clan-bonus - 15% + T10 perma camo - 50%) - 63 000cr
Ammo -20 820 cr

Total earnings + 107 080 cr

After change the credits earnings (if i understand it correctly)  would have been..

Recieved 159 083 cr
Modifiers:
"Converted Type 20 bonus" ( +20 % ) + 31 817 cr
Pema camo service costs changed to credit-income (-50% ==> + 25 %) +39 771 cr

Spent (with base service cost of T10 - 150 000 cr)
Service -15 % (clan-bonus - 15%) - 127 500 cr
Ammo -20 820 cr

Total +42 580 credits

So with the new system you still would have made an profit in this bad game, but it would have been 64 500 cr less than now.
And it's worse if you don't belong to a clan with good bonuses.

Regards.

A step in the right direction. People shouldn't be breaking even at TX with bad games.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

35 minutes ago, 300ConfirmedKills said:

A step in the right direction. People shouldn't be breaking even at TX with bad games.

If you're not breaking even with a premium acc then it will be exponentially harder to do so for FTP players. And this scales massively. Be careful what you wish for.

[Bald_Rookie]

2 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

If you're not breaking even with a premium acc then it will be exponentially harder to do so for FTP players. And this scales massively. Be careful what you wish for.

Yupp

Same Gearing game without premium account, but with T10 perma-camo and -15% clan bonus on service costs

 

Now + 43 446 cr
After change - 21 054
So without premium time, the game "goes negative" when the change comes.

 

"No impact on the credit income"....

 

[ThePurpleSmurf]

3 minutes ago, Bald_Rookie said:

Yupp

Same Gearing game without premium account, but with T10 perma-camo and -15% clan bonus on service costs

 

Now + 43 446 cr
After change - 21 054
So without premium time, the game "goes negative" when the change comes.

 

"No impact on the credit income"....

 

 

Sorry, but this was either a mediocre Co-op game or a very bad game in general. 100k credits in a Gearing is like doing nothing and dying in the first 3 minutes of the game. Not really a "proof" that the new system will break the bank of anyone.

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

Regardless, the economy has been my least concern when it came to what should be fixed.

[KratosTheUnforgiving]

We all known WG are going to screw it all up and con us out of something until found out, their history of lying, deceit, being unable to do simple maths and border line illegal actions.

[Bald_Rookie]

46 minutes ago, ThePurpleSmurf said:

Sorry, but this was either a mediocre Co-op game or a very bad game in general. 100k credits in a Gearing is like doing nothing and dying in the first 3 minutes of the game. Not really a "proof" that the new system will break the bank of anyone.

Yupp

As i stated earlier:

6 hours ago, Bald_Rookie said:

Did a test run in randoms, and had an bad game that also was a defeat.

It was more of an statement that the Credit income is gona be affected in a negative way.

Even if i had played an (for me) "great game", and got (let's say) 500 k credits before modifiers and service costs

then (with prem time, perma camo and clan bonus) i would currently had made 516 180 kredits.

But with the new system "only" 451 680 credits.

So this change affects even good games negatively.

And yupp: Its "only" 64 500 credits difference, but their statement " Instead of lowering the service cost, permanent camouflages give a credit bonus that makes it so that the average income is either unchanged or increased" isn't really correct.

...if my calculations are correct

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 7 Stunden, Bald_Rookie sagte:

 

 

So with the new system you still would have made an profit in this bad game, but it would have been 64 500 cr less than now.

I get a slightly different result:

Service cost reduction 50% = ~50k credits

Income increase is 25% of ~160k = ~40k.

Difference roughly 10k credits.

That's on a bad game. On a good game you will earn more than now.

Above is wrong. See my next message.

[Bald_Rookie]

10 minutes ago, Johnny_Moneto said:

I get a slightly different result:

Yupp. You are correct. Thx for noticing.

My "Spreadsheet" was incorrect

On a great game you actually gain credits with the new system (my example with 500 k==> gain 60 500 credits)

And on a crap game you loose some (but not much, i.e. 24 729 k).

 

 

Thx again @Johnny_Moneto and

 

 

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 2 Stunden, Bald_Rookie sagte:

Yupp. You are correct. Thx for noticing.

My "Spreadsheet" was incorrect

On a great game you actually gain credits with the new system (my example with 500 k==> gain 60 500 credits)

And on a crap game you loose some (but not much, i.e. 24 729 k).

 

 

Thx again @Johnny_Moneto and

 

 

I also made a mistake.

A normal T10 w/o camo has 180k service costs. Current permaflage reduction: 50% = 90k

90k * 4 = 360k.

That's the amount of credits you need to earn before modifiers to get the same result.

 

Edit: ...and I just saw that they will reduce service costs for tier10 to 150k, which leads to you needing 240k credit income.

 

For a tech tree T9 ship it's 96k credits to break even.

 

Edit: Service costs for tier will be reduced by 5k, so it will be 91k for the break even.

Gee. Hope I didn't overlook more.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:02 PM, Yedwy said:

I think we need to have the option to refund all our permaflages for full doubloon cost for starters, then we can talk more

[BanzaiPiluso]

21 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

se. They are also removing the -4% dispersion buff (which most camos used to give) from the game, which comes across as an attempt to put Deadeye back into the game when no-one's looking. I'm not in favour of this last one, tbh. I think cruisers and DDs will feel that nerf quite heavily.

Thanks for that. much appreciated.

I see, that last bit sounds bad indeed.

[Panocek]

22 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

They are also removing the -4% dispersion buff (which most camos used to give) from the game, which comes across as an attempt to put Deadeye back into the game when no-one's looking. I'm not in favour of this last one, tbh. I think cruisers and DDs will feel that nerf quite heavily.

Yes and no. More accurate guns also means bigger change to put entire salvo into the water when aim is off or target JustDodgesTM. Especially once "news of accuracy buff" gets out to the random folk, They will snipe harder, after all "guns got more accurate so why get closer"

16 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

If you're not breaking even with a premium acc then it will be exponentially harder to do so for FTP players. And this scales massively. Be careful what you wish for.

Keep in mind in "World of Tanks" model turning point where average baddies can't sustain themselves is tier 8 without premium account. On T10, you need to have actually good game to not-bleed-credits-like-a-stuck-pig.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Keep in mind in "World of Tanks" model turning point where average baddies can't sustain themselves is tier 8 without premium account. On T10, you need to have actually good game to not-bleed-credits-like-a-stuck-pig.

I am keenly aware of this. A side product of this economy is increased pressure to do well (read: Deal damage) at the credit grinding tiers. In this instance your team becomes a hindrance, winning is an afterthought and the gaming experience becomes more toxic and full of pressure. It is this moment gaming turns into working. And I dread this change for this exact reason.

[invicta2012]

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

Yes and no. More accurate guns also means bigger change to put entire salvo into the water when aim is off or target JustDodgesTM. Especially once "news of accuracy buff" gets out to the random folk, They will snipe harder, after all "guns got more accurate so why get closer"

Because your secondaries are 4% more accurate than they were last week? That's the bit I'm most worried about, really. All these high tier Secondary monsters getting a buff. 

[Onsterfelijke]

On 4/22/2022 at 10:02 AM, invicta2012 said:

 

 

According to the detailed explanation:

 

"Permanent Camouflages.

When the change comes out, you will get permanent bonuses with the best available values of your permanent camouflages for a particular ship.

Any bonuses worse than the standard ones for a Tier are upgraded to them.
Post-battle service cost reduction bonus is replaced with credits bonus: for each 2% of the service cost reduction you get +1% credits instead.
If a camouflage did not have a bonus to free XP, or commander XP, but had a bonus to XP, then you will receive not only a bonus to XP, but also bonuses to other types of XP.

This is done for the reason that now bonuses to different XP types are not related to each other."

 

So if you have all three permacamos for Graf Spee, for example (War Paint, National, Type 10), you should be able to pick the visuals of any of them while always receiving the best possible Economic bonuses from the three (which is National - Credits +35%, XP + 100%). You would also get the global benefit of the new system (so +5% credits,  +100% to Commander XP and Free XP, and your +35% current credit bonus would be uprated to the next Tier in the new camo system, so would become +40%). 

 

 

Not sure it's time for that yet. It looks as if there's a general boost to mid level economic earning abilities but something of a nerf to the more extreme ones where people stack multiple flags.

 

 

Thanks that is more more clear for me!

[Onsterfelijke]

21 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Because your secondaries are 4% more accurate than they were last week? That's the bit I'm most worried about, really. All these high tier Secondary monsters getting a buff. 

And your also spotted sooner i know everyone has that problem but DD have the most problems with this.

[Verblonde]

4 hours ago, Onsterfelijke said:

your also spotted sooner

I recall reading that, under the new system, the reduction in spotting distance will become baked into the ships' spotting distances? Is that not the case?

[Yedwy]

3 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I recall reading that, under the new system, the reduction in spotting distance will become baked into the ships' spotting distances? Is that not the case?

Yeah until the next "we need to standardize spotting ranges across the board" rework of the rework that was a rework of the original spotting mechanic...