Submarine extended suggestions after 200+ games

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Hello Forum.

 

Inspired by @Nagine s topic which is sadly not taken all to seriously I decided to create this one as it will cover my thought's of what might be necessary to get submarines more in line with the current gameplay. I said in the other topic that I would need to play more games in subs first but decided after a few tests in training room and information received from El2aZer that they are currently broken and not as careful of an evaluation as I at first thought. So Let me begin summarizing my personal ideas.

First, why do I think I would be qualified to give any suggestions?

• I played more than 200 battles with submarines after they were introduced into randoms with an average win-rate of around 65% between all tiers. At the same time I tested torp / homing torp interaction with - against all classes in training room and in the battles in which I played surface ships against subs I gained extensive experience with good success against submarines and consistent results against them.

 

 1,  Survive-ability and Diveduration - depletion and Submarine speed

 

Health

Submarines gained a lot of health since the last testing. This needs to be reduced by at least 25% again. It has been a good move but overdone. In the previous test when a submarine got spotted and if in the wrong spot at that time it could get oneshot by depth charge drops from all over the place and we have all seen pictures of the minimap littered with anti sub planes as soon as one got spotted completely devastating it. While this is fun for many players who really dislike submarines it clearly produced the need for WG to buff the subs health and well... they overdid it. It is very difficult now to kill a submarine and even with precise drops of a DD which is really hard to achieve in random battle conditions they might still survive and get away or even retaliate. A submarine that receives a precise drop of depth charges by a DD player deserves to be sunk and therefore less health is needed.

 

Depth charges

The aoe effective range of depth charges has been increased, however the further away the submarine is from the shock-wave, even when hit it happens to do no(little damage. It creates a permaflood and oil to appear on the surface but the oil is barely trackable for ships without antisub planes and the flooding damage is very low and easily ignored. So I propose to increase the alpha of all anti sub armaments by at least 20%, increase the flood duration and remove the damage reduction by distance in relation to the shock-wave. A successful hit with those planes is not easy. A battleship or even cruiser has to worry about more things than suddenly in the middle of a battle to switch to a whole other view (planes), correctly track and lead the submarine, predict it's movements only to be rewarded with little or no damage done with barely any inconvenience for the submarine. Increase the frequency of oil slicks appearing on the water surface to make it easier to track the subs movement.

Let every cruiser have access to anti submarine planes. It is impossible to counteract a submarine that happens to be on the part of the map with mostly light cruiser presence and for some reasons even some heavy cruisers LACK anti sub planes. This is not balanced or acceptable as those flanks are completely helpless and in the mercy of the sub players mistakes. I noticed that especially in parts of the map where there was a heavy presence of cruisers who had no planes available that in a submarine I had most of the control and scare away the whole enemy into retreating positions all by myself and my presence allowing my team to comfortably get the cap and map control and with that alone win the game. Despite me doing little damage against these running and kiting ships the game was decided by that move alone and that is simply because the risk of these cruisers trying to spot/locate and sail over my position to drop depth charges wasn't just a risk, it was a suicide move with little accomplished.

I wanted to add the suggestion that even DDs should be able to use anti sub planes but I decided against it as it would saturate the map with planes outside of their original purpose as they are sadly used already by players who probably don't understand the meaning of those planes I guess.

 

Battery duration/ depletion and Submarine speed/detection

The battery life of submarines has been reduced significantly and balanced out by increasing the recharge rate and decreasing the loss of battery life under certain conditions like the sub being spotted while under water causes the subs battery to drain faster. I feel this completely missed the point of how it could work much smoother and make it more fair for surface ships to get submarines to surface or even prevent them from surfacing and diving instantly. This will be a lengthy explanation.

Increase the battery duration back to old levels (around 10 minutes for t10 subs with specific modules / captain skills) BUT change this:

 

• Submarines before attempting to dive need at least 10 seconds of preparation time. This will make it more risky and difficult for subs to make shotgun attacks against enemy ships as it increases their risk of remaining in active Hydro/radar or under CV plane spotting. Submarines can not simply dive on a whim, they need to fill their ballast tanks with water to decrease buoyancy to make them sink smoothly. This needs to be represented in the game NOT for historical reasons but for balance reasons. As it currently is is that subs can dive way to easy as soon as they are spotted or in danger easily escaping it. A 10 second preparation timer increases the risk and punishes careless submarines as it should be. During these 10 seconds it is possible for main guns of surface ships to significantly damage the submarine and to make following plane strikes more accurate. This is only fair as we give the submarines the ability to stay underwater for longer back. Submarines are subs and should stay submerged for most of the battle and not as they currently are alternating between surfaced and diving like a dolphin literally dodging shells/planes and depthcharges easily.

 

• Submarines speed in t6 and t8 both on surface and underwater is fine. I will not ask for changes to those submarines speed but in this section I will give suggestions on how to make submarines more easily detectable depending on their speed and in-cooperate solution of dive depletion! I will use t10 submarines as an example and the developers should be able to relate this back down the tiers accordingly. DDs and light cruisers should get the passive "trait/ability" to detect submarines via passive sonar. Submarines in WW2 if running on their Diesel engines were absurdly loud. There is not a chance those submarines were not heard. One could argue that it's only natural with all the battle noises around to not hear submarines but this game is not supposed to be historical for balance reasons and never will be so while we should try to keep some resemblance here it is necessary for balance reasons to make DDs and light cruisers able to detect those submarines! Here is how this should work in my opinion to make it fair for both lightcruiser/DDs and submarines but significantly more difficult for the latter. If a t10 submarine goes at full speed (in t10 this is around 30kts+ under water) they will automatically get picked up by DDs / light cruisers passive sonar in a 6km radius around them (varying according to different nations and subs if you will), not detected by shown on the minimap similar to how radar works. Make it so the submarine is shown precisely on the minimap for 10~ seconds before it is fully revealed if it keeps the speed up. However make it so the submarine can stop this from happening by slowing down to half speed. If the submarine reaches half speed before the detection timer of 10seconds is completed then it will escape detection! If the submarine however has been picked up before reaching half speed the submarine CAN NOT escape detection without leaving the 6km detection zone or using a potential new consumeable called "silent running" which completely stops the submarine for around 30 seconds but prevents any detection methods from picking it up. It also stuns the submarine for that duration making it blind, unable to ping, fire torps or use consumeables. This will significantly improve the ability of surface ships to detect and counter the usually fast submarines under water and make subs play more carefully as they can't risk going half speed for most of the game. Remember, 10 minutes of dive time at 30kts is effectively only 5minutes at 15kts of travel distance! Submarines can not outrun DDs anymore with this and even lightcruises can catch up to them! Now to top it of... remove the assured hydro detection of submarines within 2km distance in favor of Hydro picking up any sub going faster than 1/4 speed in it's vicinity. For balance reasons hydro needs to be treated the same way as explained above. Detect the submarine on the minimap first for 10seconds and give it a chance to slow down/escape detection.  This will effectively hinder the submarines movements quite a bit and remember it won't be able to surface or go fast meaning it loses battery life while not really being able to accomplish much. A hydro with this gains much more worth against subs and makes it far easier to keep them predictable and in check.

 

• Submarines maneuverability should affect battery depletion! This is something I really would like to see happen as it will greatly alter how the submarine maneuvers under water and affect how much it can spam to surface/dive. While underwater the submarine uses electric engines to run silently and can not engage their diesel because of detection reasons. However depending on their speed and maneuvers and force required to do them the battery depletion should increase. We need to however give subs an alternative, battery saving but less efficient way to maneuver under water too to counteract this. So make it like the following: Tapping "F" for rising begins pumping out the ballast to increase buoyancy making the submarine rise slowly. Tapping it twice in a row quickly engages the rudders too which should increase the battery consumption by 1 per second until the move is complete. Tapping "C" for diving should pump more water into the ballast to decrease buoyancy making it sink slowly. Tapping it twice in a row quickly engages the rudders too " " "With this a submarine player can't just dive up and down as he pleases without a tradeoff and this also directly counteracts the increased battery life. Fair right? The same thing for speed. Make submarines who go full speed under water engage more battery power increasing the battery depletion by 0.5 per second. There are captain skills available which a player can choose to decrease these additional costs so I think it's very reasonable to ask submarines to pay a price for being swift underwater while not under Hydro/passive sonar. It helps prevent situations where in late game a single sub player just stays underwater for 3minutes wasting everyone's time. The less efficient option in this case and battery saving option would be simply by going 3/4 speed. 3/4 speed should not use additional battery life and makes it easier for subs to reach 1/2 speed if detected by passive sonar/ hydro

 

2, Pings, torps and homing

 

So I'm nearly done now. Let's quickly talk about pings. Pings should continue working as they currently do. With all the changes I asked for above the pings become much more reasonable and fair as there is now plenty to make life for subs much more difficult. However the homing needs to change in one way only, let me elaborate before you tell me how OP it is supposed to be and I agree, it is OP but only against one ship and that is DDs. The homing torps track way to well on DDs. It's next to impossible to escape homing torpedoes if you don't either run straight away and turn at the very last second or go straight towards the torp and again, turn at the very last second. I tested dodging these torps in training room against BOT submarines, especially against Balao class and i needed to play my DD in a very particular way to not get obliterated by these torps. Even if I managed to reach the submarine and release depth charges once I got "behind" the submarine and tried to turn and follow it the back launchers simply oneshot me as these torps just home in way to well. So its practically impossible to engage these subs in a training room where there is only me and the submarine. Now imagine this scenario in random battles with the submarines team actively shooting the DD player on top of homing torpedos. It needs to be fixed. How much the homing needs to be decreased to I can't tell, this is the developers job but DDs are supposed to counter submarines more effectively and it's practically impossible to imagine this happening in random battles in their current homing state. I managed to kill multiple subs with precise depth charge drops against careless sub players in randoms however that involved said players to not pay attention / be unfamiliar. A bot however who has undivided attention for me showed me how little was possible for a DD in such a scenario where the DD should be the one having the upper hand.

 

The homing against cruisers and BBs seems fair. Those are and should be the intended targets for submarines. I have tested dodging torps in both those classes and it's easily doable by both kiting away, turning away, charging in and turning. Stationary ships should be punished by those torps by remaining still for to long. But while maneuvering it's most times very easy to dodge the homing torps which are easily spotted so no changes need to be applied.

 

Shotgunning with the changes I suggested above will also not be a thing anymore so we don't need to talk about this.

 

 

 

And with this I reached the end of my suggestions for now. Again thanks to @Nagine for inspiring me to make this topic and share my suggestions. Now I don't say it it can only work this way or that this must be the true solution. It's what I believe would help make subs fit into the game more and make it more fair for their intended counters to be able to actually effectively counter them. Submarines obviously "underperform" because the playerbase already struggles to make OP carriers work on average so buffing them is NOT the way foward. At the moment the skill ceiling is once again massive and the ceiling for some players is as far away as the sun in relation to earth it seems. We need to make it so submarines are hard but rewarding to play and fair for other classes too. I believe my above changes make it still possible to excel in subs for skilled individuals as they do in other ship classes while not making it impossible to counter subs by applying realistic and fair restrictions to submarines allowing the natural flow of the game as it currently is to continue.

 

 

Thank you for reading and your patience

 

 

 

 

[CV_SUB_Report_Blacklist]

removing sub much easier to do :)

[Panocek]

How dare you posting constructive feedback

 

1 hour ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Depth charges

The aoe effective range of depth charges has been increased, however the further away the submarine is from the shock-wave, even when hit it happens to do no(little damage. It creates a permaflood and oil to appear on the surface but the oil is barely trackable for ships without antisub planes and the flooding damage is very low and easily ignored. So I propose to increase the alpha of all anti sub armaments by at least 20%, increase the flood duration and remove the damage reduction by distance in relation to the shock-wave. A successful hit with those planes is not easy. A battleship or even cruiser has to worry about more things than suddenly in the middle of a battle to switch to a whole other view (planes), correctly track and lead the submarine, predict it's movements only to be rewarded with little or no damage done with barely any inconvenience for the submarine. Increase the frequency of oil slicks appearing on the water surface to make it easier to track the subs movement.

What needs to be done is balancing depth charges themselves. As of now you have MASSIVE gap in damage between them. Grozovoi have 12x2400 package, Daring have 16x5000, one feels like dropping empty vodka bottles into the ocean, other feels like "press G for GG". Either you have lots of weak depth charges, or few potent ones.

 

Oil slicks could use UI indication + voice cue "enemy sub was hit, its losing oil", black spots on dark sea aren't easiest to notice.

 

1 hour ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

DDs and light cruisers should get the passive "trait/ability" to detect submarines via passive sonar.

We had that, was removed. And it would be closest to "balanced", because if you have Hydro DD, subs are basically guaranteed kill unless it had teammates to the rescue. Without Hydro and especially for destroyers not known for their concealment, you're basically wandering and dropping charges blind

[Bland_42]

For what it's worth, my 2 cents:

 

- give the pings only to tier X subs

so low tiers will be a bit more a "training zone" for a players, without blindly rely on the homing of torps

 

- make the subs a little slower (5-10 kts less) underwater than surfaced

because if a sub accelerate in straight line I think a DD could not engage fast enough to not being sunked by the enemy team (the DD will be perma-spotted by running sub)

 

- torps reload time on subs need to be more similar to that on DDs of same tier and nation

not a single reason for that to be otherwise

 

- the ping need a cooldown and to show the exact location of the subs on the mini-map

to stop players to keep pinging everyone everywhere, only for the depletion of damage control

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

2 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Hello Forum.

 

Inspired by @Nagine s topic which is sadly not taken all to seriously I decided to create this one as it will cover my thought's of what might be necessary to get submarines more in line with the current gameplay. I said in the other topic that I would need to play more games in subs first but decided after a few tests in training room and information received from El2aZer that they are currently broken and not as careful of an evaluation as I at first thought. So Let me begin summarizing my personal ideas.

First, why do I think I would be qualified to give any suggestions?

• I played more than 200 battles with submarines after they were introduced into randoms with an average win-rate of around 65% between all tiers. At the same time I tested torp / homing torp interaction with - against all classes in training room and in the battles in which I played surface ships against subs I gained extensive experience with good success against submarines and consistent results against them.

 

 1,  Survive-ability and Diveduration - depletion and Submarine speed

 

Health

Submarines gained a lot of health since the last testing. This needs to be reduced by at least 25% again. It has been a good move but overdone. In the previous test when a submarine got spotted and if in the wrong spot at that time it could get oneshot by depth charge drops from all over the place and we have all seen pictures of the minimap littered with anti sub planes as soon as one got spotted completely devastating it. While this is fun for many players who really dislike submarines it clearly produced the need for WG to buff the subs health and well... they overdid it. It is very difficult now to kill a submarine and even with precise drops of a DD which is really hard to achieve in random battle conditions they might still survive and get away or even retaliate. A submarine that receives a precise drop of depth charges by a DD player deserves to be sunk and therefore less health is needed.

 

Depth charges

The aoe effective range of depth charges has been increased, however the further away the submarine is from the shock-wave, even when hit it happens to do no(little damage. It creates a permaflood and oil to appear on the surface but the oil is barely trackable for ships without antisub planes and the flooding damage is very low and easily ignored. So I propose to increase the alpha of all anti sub armaments by at least 20%, increase the flood duration and remove the damage reduction by distance in relation to the shock-wave. A successful hit with those planes is not easy. A battleship or even cruiser has to worry about more things than suddenly in the middle of a battle to switch to a whole other view (planes), correctly track and lead the submarine, predict it's movements only to be rewarded with little or no damage done with barely any inconvenience for the submarine. Increase the frequency of oil slicks appearing on the water surface to make it easier to track the subs movement.

Let every cruiser have access to anti submarine planes. It is impossible to counteract a submarine that happens to be on the part of the map with mostly light cruiser presence and for some reasons even some heavy cruisers LACK anti sub planes. This is not balanced or acceptable as those flanks are completely helpless and in the mercy of the sub players mistakes. I noticed that especially in parts of the map where there was a heavy presence of cruisers who had no planes available that in a submarine I had most of the control and scare away the whole enemy into retreating positions all by myself and my presence allowing my team to comfortably get the cap and map control and with that alone win the game. Despite me doing little damage against these running and kiting ships the game was decided by that move alone and that is simply because the risk of these cruisers trying to spot/locate and sail over my position to drop depth charges wasn't just a risk, it was a suicide move with little accomplished.

I wanted to add the suggestion that even DDs should be able to use anti sub planes but I decided against it as it would saturate the map with planes outside of their original purpose as they are sadly used already by players who probably don't understand the meaning of those planes I guess.

 

Battery duration/ depletion and Submarine speed/detection

The battery life of submarines has been reduced significantly and balanced out by increasing the recharge rate and decreasing the loss of battery life under certain conditions like the sub being spotted while under water causes the subs battery to drain faster. I feel this completely missed the point of how it could work much smoother and make it more fair for surface ships to get submarines to surface or even prevent them from surfacing and diving instantly. This will be a lengthy explanation.

Increase the battery duration back to old levels (around 10 minutes for t10 subs with specific modules / captain skills) BUT change this:

 

• Submarines before attempting to dive need at least 10 seconds of preparation time. This will make it more risky and difficult for subs to make shotgun attacks against enemy ships as it increases their risk of remaining in active Hydro/radar or under CV plane spotting. Submarines can not simply dive on a whim, they need to fill their ballast tanks with water to decrease buoyancy to make them sink smoothly. This needs to be represented in the game NOT for historical reasons but for balance reasons. As it currently is is that subs can dive way to easy as soon as they are spotted or in danger easily escaping it. A 10 second preparation timer increases the risk and punishes careless submarines as it should be. During these 10 seconds it is possible for main guns of surface ships to significantly damage the submarine and to make following plane strikes more accurate. This is only fair as we give the submarines the ability to stay underwater for longer back. Submarines are subs and should stay submerged for most of the battle and not as they currently are alternating between surfaced and diving like a dolphin literally dodging shells/planes and depthcharges easily.

 

• Submarines speed in t6 and t8 both on surface and underwater is fine. I will not ask for changes to those submarines speed but in this section I will give suggestions on how to make submarines more easily detectable depending on their speed and in-cooperate solution of dive depletion! I will use t10 submarines as an example and the developers should be able to relate this back down the tiers accordingly. DDs and light cruisers should get the passive "trait/ability" to detect submarines via passive sonar. Submarines in WW2 if running on their Diesel engines were absurdly loud. There is not a chance those submarines were not heard. One could argue that it's only natural with all the battle noises around to not hear submarines but this game is not supposed to be historical for balance reasons and never will be so while we should try to keep some resemblance here it is necessary for balance reasons to make DDs and light cruisers able to detect those submarines! Here is how this should work in my opinion to make it fair for both lightcruiser/DDs and submarines but significantly more difficult for the latter. If a t10 submarine goes at full speed (in t10 this is around 30kts+ under water) they will automatically get picked up by DDs / light cruisers passive sonar in a 6km radius around them (varying according to different nations and subs if you will), not detected by shown on the minimap similar to how radar works. Make it so the submarine is shown precisely on the minimap for 10~ seconds before it is fully revealed if it keeps the speed up. However make it so the submarine can stop this from happening by slowing down to half speed. If the submarine reaches half speed before the detection timer of 10seconds is completed then it will escape detection! If the submarine however has been picked up before reaching half speed the submarine CAN NOT escape detection without leaving the 6km detection zone or using a potential new consumeable called "silent running" which completely stops the submarine for around 30 seconds but prevents any detection methods from picking it up. It also stuns the submarine for that duration making it blind, unable to ping, fire torps or use consumeables. This will significantly improve the ability of surface ships to detect and counter the usually fast submarines under water and make subs play more carefully as they can't risk going half speed for most of the game. Remember, 10 minutes of dive time at 30kts is effectively only 5minutes at 15kts of travel distance! Submarines can not outrun DDs anymore with this and even lightcruises can catch up to them! Now to top it of... remove the assured hydro detection of submarines within 2km distance in favor of Hydro picking up any sub going faster than 1/4 speed in it's vicinity. For balance reasons hydro needs to be treated the same way as explained above. Detect the submarine on the minimap first for 10seconds and give it a chance to slow down/escape detection.  This will effectively hinder the submarines movements quite a bit and remember it won't be able to surface or go fast meaning it loses battery life while not really being able to accomplish much. A hydro with this gains much more worth against subs and makes it far easier to keep them predictable and in check.

 

• Submarines maneuverability should affect battery depletion! This is something I really would like to see happen as it will greatly alter how the submarine maneuvers under water and affect how much it can spam to surface/dive. While underwater the submarine uses electric engines to run silently and can not engage their diesel because of detection reasons. However depending on their speed and maneuvers and force required to do them the battery depletion should increase. We need to however give subs an alternative, battery saving but less efficient way to maneuver under water too to counteract this. So make it like the following: Tapping "F" for rising begins pumping out the ballast to increase buoyancy making the submarine rise slowly. Tapping it twice in a row quickly engages the rudders too which should increase the battery consumption by 1 per second until the move is complete. Tapping "C" for diving should pump more water into the ballast to decrease buoyancy making it sink slowly. Tapping it twice in a row quickly engages the rudders too " " "With this a submarine player can't just dive up and down as he pleases without a tradeoff and this also directly counteracts the increased battery life. Fair right? The same thing for speed. Make submarines who go full speed under water engage more battery power increasing the battery depletion by 0.5 per second. There are captain skills available which a player can choose to decrease these additional costs so I think it's very reasonable to ask submarines to pay a price for being swift underwater while not under Hydro/passive sonar. It helps prevent situations where in late game a single sub player just stays underwater for 3minutes wasting everyone's time. The less efficient option in this case and battery saving option would be simply by going 3/4 speed. 3/4 speed should not use additional battery life and makes it easier for subs to reach 1/2 speed if detected by passive sonar/ hydro

 

2, Pings, torps and homing

 

So I'm nearly done now. Let's quickly talk about pings. Pings should continue working as they currently do. With all the changes I asked for above the pings become much more reasonable and fair as there is now plenty to make life for subs much more difficult. However the homing needs to change in one way only, let me elaborate before you tell me how OP it is supposed to be and I agree, it is OP but only against one ship and that is DDs. The homing torps track way to well on DDs. It's next to impossible to escape homing torpedoes if you don't either run straight away and turn at the very last second or go straight towards the torp and again, turn at the very last second. I tested dodging these torps in training room against BOT submarines, especially against Balao class and i needed to play my DD in a very particular way to not get obliterated by these torps. Even if I managed to reach the submarine and release depth charges once I got "behind" the submarine and tried to turn and follow it the back launchers simply oneshot me as these torps just home in way to well. So its practically impossible to engage these subs in a training room where there is only me and the submarine. Now imagine this scenario in random battles with the submarines team actively shooting the DD player on top of homing torpedos. It needs to be fixed. How much the homing needs to be decreased to I can't tell, this is the developers job but DDs are supposed to counter submarines more effectively and it's practically impossible to imagine this happening in random battles in their current homing state. I managed to kill multiple subs with precise depth charge drops against careless sub players in randoms however that involved said players to not pay attention / be unfamiliar. A bot however who has undivided attention for me showed me how little was possible for a DD in such a scenario where the DD should be the one having the upper hand.

 

The homing against cruisers and BBs seems fair. Those are and should be the intended targets for submarines. I have tested dodging torps in both those classes and it's easily doable by both kiting away, turning away, charging in and turning. Stationary ships should be punished by those torps by remaining still for to long. But while maneuvering it's most times very easy to dodge the homing torps which are easily spotted so no changes need to be applied.

 

Shotgunning with the changes I suggested above will also not be a thing anymore so we don't need to talk about this.

 

 

 

And with this I reached the end of my suggestions for now. Again thanks to @Nagine for inspiring me to make this topic and share my suggestions. Now I don't say it it can only work this way or that this must be the true solution. It's what I believe would help make subs fit into the game more and make it more fair for their intended counters to be able to actually effectively counter them. Submarines obviously "underperform" because the playerbase already struggles to make OP carriers work on average so buffing them is NOT the way foward. At the moment the skill ceiling is once again massive and the ceiling for some players is as far away as the sun in relation to earth it seems. We need to make it so submarines are hard but rewarding to play and fair for other classes too. I believe my above changes make it still possible to excel in subs for skilled individuals as they do in other ship classes while not making it impossible to counter subs by applying realistic and fair restrictions to submarines allowing the natural flow of the game as it currently is to continue.

 

 

Thank you for reading and your patience

 

 

 

 

Dude, I honestly appreciate the effort you put into this, but you are trying to polish a turd. It can't be done.

 

Subs are not battle implements. They are ambush weapons.  Subs in WoWs is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. And since the playerbase IS the hole, it's actually bound to hurt, a LOT. At least CV's DID take part in surface battles, although they were also the reason for battles becoming obsolete. Trying to fit subs into this game is the dumbest thing since the game was published. I HATE CV's but just removing the spotting mechanics would be a major improvement. For subs,there is no such redemption possible. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

54 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

For subs,there is no such redemption possible

It's not about what is possible but rather what WG is doing and as it stands they are going to implement those subs no matter how often you repeat that it's futile. So you have three choices until that happens. You either try to give suggestions as to how to make the gameplay at least somewhat more enjoyable as to what we have now, you ignore the whole thing and play the game or you quit after they are implemented.

 

You can see for yourself what happened with CVs after the rework three years ago. Players complained without ever stopping and now we have SuperCVs. It's going to be the same for subs. And as it was with CVs barely enough players will quit playing.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

Just now, Yuu5Eleven said:

It's not about what is possible but rather what WG is doing and as it stands they are going to implement those subs no matter how often you repeat that it's futile. So you have three choices until that happens. You either try to give suggestions as to how to make the gameplay at least somewhat more enjoyable as to what we have now, you ignore the whole thing and play the game or you quit after they are implemented.

 

You can see for yourself what happened with CVs after the rework three years ago. Players complained without ever stopping and now we have SuperCVs. It's going to be the same for subs. And as it was with CVs barely enough players will quit playing.

You are not seriously claiming that offering suggestions will make WG change whatever course they had in mind?

What you're saying is like "We're being held hostage and they're never gonna let us go, but we might have some influence on the manner of our execution." I'm not interested, and not just because I don't believe it. I also don't care what they're doing with subs. All I - and everyone - can do is decide whether WG is going too far with making this game more frustrating than it's worth, and draw my conclusions accordingly.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

2 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

You are not seriously claiming that offering suggestions will make WG change whatever course they had in mind?

I am because WG clearly reacted to some of the suggestions. You can deny it however much you want but it's a fact. Just because they don't do it exactly to the last detail as you or others imagine it doesn't mean they didn't change subs from the first test to this one. I bet you don't even understand any of the differences between the testing now and the previous one as far as I can see all you do is talk badly of the whole thing while being completely uninformed. I actually pointed out the effect of the changes in my big opening post too, they are rather significant. How can you possibly deny that happened when it's something you can experience yourself. Well you probably can't relate because you likely did no in depth testing or spend any thoughts on how any of this works. So why do you think you can say that what I suggest doesn't matter?

 

You don't put any work into suggesting anything, understanding how it works, understanding the changes made but believe you can dismiss other players experiences and even outright try to lie about facts? Sorry but you deserve every bit of unenjoyable sub gameplay you receive with their implementation

[tocqueville8]

2 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Submarines gained a lot of health since the last testing. This needs to be reduced by at least 25% again. It has been a good move but overdone. In the previous test when a submarine got spotted and if in the wrong spot at that time it could get oneshot by depth charge drops from all over the place and we have all seen pictures of the minimap littered with anti sub planes as soon as one got spotted completely devastating it. While this is fun for many players who really dislike submarines it clearly produced the need for WG to buff the subs health and well... they overdid it.

 

It's not that I dislike submarines, it's that getting Dev Struck or focused on when in a bad position is the fate of all other classes in the game.

 

The last time a Veneto showed broadside to my North Carolina under 8 km, she got Dev Struck. Ditto the second-to-last time.

DDs that sit broadside in the cap get Dev Struck by torps, and those that overextend get shot to bits by 4-5 ships combined.

Cruisers can get citadeled through the nose (happened to me recently in the Sejong vs an Incomparable: I was reasonably far and wiggling, but he got me ).

 

Unless they run out of batteries or they get torped by other subs (but with a max of 2 per team, their encounters are fairly rare), subs are too hard to sink quickly imho.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

3 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

 

It's not that I dislike submarines, it's that getting Dev Struck or focused on when in a bad position is the fate of all other classes in the game.

 

The last time a Veneto showed broadside to my North Carolina under 8 km, she got Dev Struck. Ditto the second-to-last time.

DDs that sit broadside in the cap get Dev Struck by torps, and those that overextend get shot to bits by 4-5 ships combined.

Cruisers can get citadeled through the nose (happened to me recently in the Sejong vs an Incomparable: I was reasonably far and wiggling, but he got me ).

 

Unless they run out of batteries or they get torped by other subs (but with a max of 2 per team, their encounters are fairly rare), subs are too hard to sink quickly imho.

 

I agreee completely, what do you think about my suggestion of removing the aoe damage limiter and the increase in alpha strike and giving all cruisers access to the planes? Combined with my newly suggested detection methods this should punish subs far more easily.

[CptnSamuel]

Just remove them alltogether. I've had about 5 games today where i was in a ship, getting focussed by a sub. And there was absolutely nothing i could to against it, the only possibility was running away. But it kept following me. I couldent see it, there were no teammates spotting, i couldent shoot it. All i could do is undergo it coming for my [edited]. Zero counterplay. Wth!

[tocqueville8]

34 minutes ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

I agreee completely, what do you think about my suggestion of removing the aoe damage limiter and the increase in alpha strike and giving all cruisers access to the planes? Combined with my newly suggested detection methods this should punish subs far more easily.

 

I believe I made similar suggestions on the other thread, so that's all fine by me. I made 11 in total, though some were more about the introduction of subs than their mechanics.

 

I think the delay before submerging again, and possibly a delay for the sub in spotting around when emerging, are a great idea to limit shotgunning, which is very annoying.

 

As for some of your other points, I think the detection function is alredy too complicated to make it also depend on the sub's speed.

I mean, one could say of the Speed Boost consumable that if you don't use it by going at full speed all the time, it should last longer. Or that a smokescreen should dissipate more slowly if you lay all the puffs in the same place, standing still. It's reasonable, but also more complicated.

 

My point is that this is already a very complex game with a mostly casual userbase, so I'd keep it simple.

In this respect, the consumable system was a very good idea: DDs have N smokes, with X activation time, Y dissipation time, Z cooldown. Those numbers can be buffed a bit, but the point is that once you use a charge, you live with it, and you might be wasting it. Likewise, subs should have to make a decision on when to submerge, and live with it for a minute or two.

 

I guess I'm not being very helpful with these generic responses to your detailed post, so I'll stop right here 

[Ronchabale]

Just get rid of them

[Yosha_AtaIante]

14 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

My point is that this is already a very complex game with a mostly casual userbase, so I'd keep it simple.

I understand this and I thought about it a lot but with simple design subs will always stay broken. WG needs to take the plunge and make them harder to play otherwise there is no way I could see them being implemented in a healthy way. Players who are truly interested in playing them will then educate themselves. The ones who try them once and notice they are to difficult will still play the game and the other classes but at least it will be a healthier game. WG won't attract many sub players this way but it's the same for CVs and thats just the fate of such niche classes

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

1 hour ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

You don't put any work into suggesting anything, understanding how it works, understanding the changes made but believe you can dismiss other players experiences and even outright try to lie about facts? Sorry but you deserve every bit of unenjoyable sub gameplay you receive with their implementation

You strawman much? I've never seen anyone put so many words in someone else's mouth. Kinda disgusting.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

2 hours ago, PsychoClownfish said:

You are not seriously claiming that offering suggestions will make WG change whatever course they had in mind?

 

2 minutes ago, PsychoClownfish said:

You strawman much? I've never seen anyone put so many words in someone else's mouth. Kinda disgusting.

There it is quite easy for everyone to see. That and your past post history that is all over the place. You are putting those words out everywhere by yourself and the way you talk about subs and WG.

[tocqueville8]

31 minutes ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

I understand this and I thought about it a lot but with simple design subs will always stay broken.

 

My main gripes are with:

 

1) the durability of subs

2) the maximum time they can continuously spend underwater (which encourages disruptive, quasi-griefing plays like submerging before the caps and teleporting to the enemy CV or backline BBs)

3) the minimum time they can spend underwater, or on the surface.

 

Your suggestions are fine regarding #1 and #3, but I'm perplexed by the idea of increasing the battery to 10 minutes.

 

5 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Remember, 10 minutes of dive time at 30kts is effectively only 5minutes at 15kts of travel distance!

 

And I'm not sure I understand this one.

 

10 minutes at 30 kts is 5 minutes at 15 kts? Isn't it the other way around? I'm confused...

Which distance, more or less, should a T10 sub be able to travel while continuously underwater? What's the tradeoff between submarsion time and submersion speed, if any? Thanks.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

7 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

10 minutes at 30 kts is 5 minutes at 15 kts? Isn't it the other way around? I'm confused...

Which distance, more or less, should a T10 sub be able to travel while continuously underwater?

read carefully again (sorry if this comes over the wrong way no idea how to say it differently) of how I think to balance that out the detection of the sub will be much easier if it goes fast underwater therefore while it can remain underwater for longer it needs to move slow as to not be detected and easily killed) I solved this buff by bringing it downsides as if you dont increase the underwater duration the downsides I add would outright kill the class

In the old testing t10 subs could dive for 10minutes with 30kts.

In my suggestion they can dive for 10minutes but need to reduce speed significantly as to not be detected covering only half the distance in those 10min. Therefore they dive for long but barely cover ground

[tocqueville8]

1 minute ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

read carefully again (sorry if this comes over the wrong way no idea how to say it differently) of how I think to balance that out the detection of the sub will be much easier if it goes fast underwater therefore while it can remain underwater for longer it needs to move slow as to not be detected and easily killed) I solved this buff by bringing it downsides as if you dont increase the underwater duration the downsides I add would outright kill the class

 

But what if the issue isn't being hydroed (that's what you mean by "passive sonar", right?), but rather with using submersion to avoid detection by airplane, radar or just RPF?

What's the tradeoff then, what keeps subs from going 10 minutes at full speed underwater then?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 minute ago, tocqueville8 said:

What's the tradeoff then, what keeps subs from going 10 minutes at full speed underwater then?

getting within 6km of any DD / lightcruiser. They will be where the sub wants to pass for example and they dont need hydro active to detect the sub. They will always be able to detect it without hydro as per class as a new trait if the sub goes above 1/2 speed

[Yosha_AtaIante]

5 hours ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Make it so the submarine is shown precisely on the minimap for 10~ seconds before it is fully revealed if it keeps the speed up.

 

[tocqueville8]

2 minutes ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

getting within 6km of any DD / lightcruiser. They will be where the sub wants to pass for example and they dont need hydro active to detect the sub. They will always be able to detect it without hydro as per class as a new trait.

 

That's a pretty good idea, though it could still be a bit OP depending on the matchmaker, especially in the late game.

 

Still, I guess it could always be balanced in testing by adjusting the sub's max speed...

[lup3s]

Constructive feedback regarding Subs ? *checks date* April 1st was some days ago ... 

 

I like your post and your suggestions; good read - I agree with most of what you wrote.

I do think the oil spots make it already easy enough to track a sub underwater.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

4 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

 

That's a pretty good idea, though it could still be a bit OP depending on the matchmaker, especially in the late game.

 

Still, I guess it could always be balanced in testing by adjusting the sub's max speed...

Exactly, these are suggestions after all, it doesn't all need to be exactly as I say

[The_Angry_Admiral]

Anyone notice how long it takes planes to drop depth charges now compared the speed of a sub?