Constructive criticism of subs thread

[Nagine]

Currently we have two interesting polls running in this forum. One of them shows that more than 95% of players are against subs in their current form:

 

 

However, the other poll shows that only less than 50% of players are against subs no matter what (i.e. just NO):

 

So we have quite a few players that might accept subs under some specific conditions (e.g. only in their special mode). Considering that WG is evil and no matter the playerbase response is likely to implement subs to ALL modes that are available to the other broken class - CV, is there a way to make the pain of subs at least somewhat bearable?

 

For example, how to fix pinging and homing? What could be alternatives for damaging both surface ships and other subs?

If there is a special sub only mode, how to ensure that people would play there? (suggestion of just dumping all subs and reworked maps in some dark mode without any profit opportunities for WG is unlikely to succeed).

 

Note that there is already plenty of threads showing how people hate subs. So WG already knows that. But recent update has shown that WG might actually listen to constructive arguments (homing torpedoes were nerfed after negative statements and suggestions related to that specific mechanic). Thus, there is a chance that WG will listen to other constructive arguments, involving specific solutions instead of the mantra "Subs are evil and must be banned!"

Maybe let's try to influence the game with actual suggestions?

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Great and reasonable topic. I hope you get good responses and we get some workable ideas together. I personally need to play them more first before I can give a good opinion. I feel like judging now with my limited battles played is to early. 

[NewHorizons_1]

Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record I'll add my suggestions from the threads :

• Homing torpedoes should only work against other subs, where conventional torps would be next to useless
• Increase range of CA airstrikes, maybe with the Dutch CAs having an additional ASW airstrike that has the same range as their conventional ones.
• Restore detection of subs at periscope depth with radar
• Decrease hydrophone cooldown so that subs can hunt each other much earlier on.
• Maybe increase detection range at periscope depth with speed, eg wake from periscope

 

 

[albin322]

really hard to hunt subs with dds! fix that

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Just now, albin322 said:

really hard to hunt subs with dds! fix that

Try to elaborate more/ give suggestions in how to fix that

[Tanaka_15]

33 minutes ago, Yuu5Eleven said:

Try to elaborate more/ give suggestions in how to fix that

Make under water sub speed max 10kts. On sufrace fine let them have 35 or even 40 kts but underwater it has to be slow. 

[lovelacebeer]

- I get the point of homing torpedos for sub vs sub combat but IMO they shouldn’t be the primary weapon for use against surface ships. Perhaps it would be worth upping their speed but dropping their damage or just make them unusable on the surface.
 

- The hydrophones range used for sub vs sub action should also probably be extended, also the wait time for it to work at the start of a battle needs reducing.
 

- One area I strongly believe needs addressing is the speeds of submarines, due to the nature of the game subs do need to travel faster than in real life when on the surface, but when submerged subs should be significantly slower than they are now. One of the aspects I love of good submarine games is the silent hunter role carefully getting into position where as in wows it’s more of a yolo rush. Now if that means subs spawn further forward but get more sensible speeds that would be a fairer trade off. 
 

This would also mean trying to depth charge a sub when I’m a DD would be considerable less stupid where the DD takes ages to actually catch up with the sub, subs are already exceedingly stealthy so getting away by going deep is still possible. 

Subs equipped with AA guns should be able to use them, whilst they wouldnt have amazing AA some is better than none. It would also allow WG to sell some of the German AA u boats ( eg U-441/ U flak 1) as a specialist option. 

- Radar should detect subs at periscope depth. 
 

Honestly I doubt these would be sufficient but they might at least help a bit compared to what we have now. Realistically if WG were to do subs right they should really rebuild the game from scratch make WOWS 2.0.0 vastly bigger maps much longer battle times change the spawn points. The problem is they insist on shoehorning them in without doing the necessary work.

 

[NewHorizons_1]

2 hours ago, lovelacebeer said:

The hydrophones range used for sub vs sub action should also probably be extended, also the wait time for it to work at the start of a battle needs reducing.

Indeed. A co-op match can be over before the hydrophone is ready.

[Bear__Necessities]

Playing this game on 3 levels just overloads the players. It's simply a broken concept. It's a arcade game that now expects the average 49% WR player to have to play like a 60% WR unicum to cope. And even the unicums are finding this, challenging to an extent. 

[Nagine]

2 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

Playing this game on 3 levels just overloads the players. It's simply a broken concept. It's a arcade game that now expects the average 49% WR player to have to play like a 60% WR unicum to cope. And even the unicums are finding this, challenging to an extent. 

Maybe you have any suggestions how to alleviate that? For example, there were already good suggestions related to this issue, such as using homing only for other subs (so that unicums could concentrate on dueling among themselves and there would be no panic attacks after a ping-lock on the surface) or decreasing underwater speed, so overloaded players could simply run away. I am sure other also exists.

[Bear__Necessities]

Just now, Nagine said:

Maybe you have any suggestions how to alleviate that? For example, there were already good suggestions related to this issue, such as using homing only for other subs (so that unicums could concentrate on dueling among themselves and there would be no panic attacks after a ping-lock on the surface) or decreasing underwater speed, so overloaded players could simply run away. I am sure other also exists.

Yes, don't add another level of combat that isn't suited to a quick paced low skill arcade game. Simple really. 4 rounds of testing now and still they can't get any semblance of balance OR importantly decent levels of fun. Which is the CV problem all over again. Not fun to play. Not fun to play against. 

[Nagine]

Just now, Bear__Necessities said:

Yes, don't add another level of combat that isn't suited to a quick paced low skill arcade game. Simple really. 4 rounds of testing now and still they can't get any semblance of balance OR importantly decent levels of fun. Which is the CV problem all over again. Not fun to play. Not fun to play against. 

What if not adding subs is not an option? (underwater maps are ready, sub models are ready - kinda doubtful that WG will just throw them all away). What could be a solution to alleviate the load or increase the fun?

[Karasu_Browarszky]

So... 145 % of the players are against the subs. Very Russian figures.

[Bear__Necessities]

2 minutes ago, Nagine said:

What if not adding subs is not an option? (underwater maps are ready, sub models are ready - kinda doubtful that WG will just throw them all away). What could be a solution to alleviate the load or increase the fun?

And that is the question even WG can't answer. Because I don't have one. Clearly nor do they. Hence test number whatever we are on now. I've Tested them at every stage available to players. And I can't find or have been able to work out any decently balanced ideas that add fun. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

6 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

And that is the question even WG can't answer. Because I don't have one. Clearly nor do they. Hence test number whatever we are on now. I've Tested them at every stage available to players. And I can't find or have been able to work out any decently balanced ideas that add fun. 

 

The bottom line seems to be, the subs are either OP or they suck the sediment depending on who's playing them.

[Nagine]

2 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

And that is the question even WG can't answer. Because I don't have one. Clearly nor do they. Hence test number whatever we are on now. I've Tested them at every stage available to players. And I can't find or have been able to work out any decently balanced ideas that add fun. 

The very idea of this thread is to avoid what happened with CVs (there were plenty of player hatred, but little suggestions, so WG just threw in broken CVs). Since subs are not finalized yet, playerbase can actually benefit from generating ideas how to fix the class BEFORE the release.

The date of subs release will be when the pool of ideas (internal or external) will run out, even if the class will still be broken. We can try to avoid that by providing usable ideas.

[Bear__Necessities]

1 minute ago, Nagine said:

but little suggestions

There were a LOT of suggestions. Hell, Well known CV mains and CC's offered their services but WG shut them and shut them down. 

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

2 minutes ago, Nagine said:

The very idea of this thread is to avoid what happened with CVs

The feedback threads were literally melted alltogether so the neverending flow just stops. The main thread still continues, we have a thousand pages across the forums. They did not change anything, nor will they. They want to force these classes into the game no matter what, to extend their broken online world of warfare-whatever and make even more broken premiums to sell. 

[Nagine]

1 minute ago, Bear__Necessities said:

There were a LOT of suggestions. Hell, Well known CV mains and CC's offered their services but WG shut them and shut them down. 

As far as I remember, the forum was dominated by posts that non-RTS rework is not possible, not the actual solutions. By the way, CVs were nerfed somewhat after specific problems were noted (but that happened after the release, not before).

[NewHorizons_1]

4 hours ago, albin322 said:

really hard to hunt subs with dds! fix that

And that's the really hard part to address.

In real life destroyers were a submarine's predator. But that submarine never had a surface fleet to back it up, so the destroyer only had to worry about the submarine.

Most modes (Randoms, co-op etc) in WoWS are roughly modelled around fleet engagements.

But no 20th century navy successfully incorporated submarines into those operations, despite some attempting to do so.

A big problem the destroyer faces is being spotted by the sub and then half of the sub's team unloading on it.

I suppose you could apply the proposed plane spotting change to subs too - any ship detected by a submarine, at periscope depth, cannot spot for its allies but, at most, that ship appears on the mini map.

 

[SkollUlfr]

Quote

Constructive criticism of subs

apart from sonar bullets, subs where in a perfectly functional condition when introduced.

 

Spoiler

it was the mechanics of rest of the game that needed changed for them to not be a disaster

 

18 minutes ago, Nagine said:

The very idea of this thread is to avoid what happened with CVs (there were plenty of player hatred, but little suggestions, so WG just threw in broken CVs). Since subs are not finalized yet, playerbase can actually benefit from generating ideas how to fix the class BEFORE the release.

subs and cv share the fundamental problems. detection mechanics and player agency in counterplay.

until wg accept they are falling down an incident pit, and undertake a complete rebuild of detection, then neither can be fixed.

[Nagine]

5 minutes ago, Von_Pruss said:

The feedback threads were literally melted alltogether so the neverending flow just stops. The main thread still continues, we have a thousand pages across the forums. They did not change anything, nor will they. They want to force these classes into the game no matter what, to extend their broken online world of warfare-whatever and make even more broken premiums to sell. 

That thread is dominated by complaints and requests to stop subs, the last time I checked. This thread undoubtedly will also be ignored as soon as it gets flooded by statements that the only solution is to ban subs.

Nevertheless, specific ideas for improvement can actually be implemented by developers, as opposed to neverending flow of complaints.

Complaining is easy. Solving problems (like upcoming subs) is much more difficult, but still possible.

 

Sadly, now we are spending energy discussing the thread itself instead of trying to provide ideas for salvaging the game.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

2 minutes ago, Nagine said:

That thread is dominated by complaints and requests to stop subs, the last time I checked. This thread undoubtedly will also be ignored as soon as it gets flooded by statements that the only solution is to ban subs.

Nevertheless, specific ideas for improvement can actually be implemented by developers, as opposed to neverending flow of complaints.

Complaining is easy. Solving problems (like upcoming subs) is much more difficult, but still possible.

 

Sadly, now we are spending energy discussing the thread itself instead of trying to provide ideas for salvaging the game.

 

Well, I'm firmly in the lobby that thinks that subs should be in a separate game mode, to some extent because they somehow don't 'belong' in the randoms, and even more so because they don't seem to fit in the randoms due to how the game mechanics work. At best, I suppose, they could work as a variant of DD game play with some of their advantages and disadvantages magnified.

[Nagine]

6 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

it was the mechanics of rest of the game that needed changed for them to not be a disaster

There were already changes (like the increased ASW). Now we even have a situation where DDs are one of the worst sub hunters. So indeed, maybe increased sub spotting abilities of DDs is a high priority issue (as was already suggested by allowing to use Hydrophone or other consumable).

[Nagine]

Just now, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

I'm firmly in the lobby that thinks that subs should be in a separate game mode

That is one of the possible options, but perhaps you also have any thoughts how this mode should look like? There were already suggestions that subs belong to a Convoy mode, but how exactly that should look like? For example, how to avoid 5 ships going after auxiliary ships in Narai ignoring everything else situation? How to ensure that all participating subs would not fight among themselves for the easy targets?