Gneisenau. Time for a replacement?

[invicta2012]

I was looking at my port this morning and considering the wide range of German Battleships it contains, and how much I enjoy playing them. I have a PEF, Scharnhorst, Zieten, Odin, Brandenburg, Bismarck, Tirpitz, FdG and Pommern, and could happily have more. They are well-balanced, have unique characteristics and are always fun to play.

 

And then I think of Gneisenau. Which isn't fun to play. (and I ground it out before its dispersion got buffed, when it was very *not* fun to play).

 

And the more I think of it, the more I see it as a total outlier in the German BB line. It doesn't fit between Bayern and Bismarck in the Tech Tree - it's not a sturdy brawler, doesn't have hydro, ends up with a strange/unique secondary armament of 128mm DD guns and as a BC feels like an odd, and rather incompetent duck next to Scharnhorst and Zieten.

 

I'm not too familiar with the history of German BB development but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to replace Gneis with an intermediate Bayern-Bismarck design and push the Gneis off into being a Premium VII BC, perhaps giving her the 10-12km torps from the BC line and some secondary buffs to make her an interesting counterpart to Scharnhorst? 

 

 

[Aragathor]

Looking at Proships it is clear that Gneisenau needs help. It has the second lowest winrate, lowest damage by a far margin, lowest K/D ratio.

 

In the end the ship could get a rework into a coal ship and be replaced by a representative of the L 20e α-class battleship design.

[ColonelPete]

Gneis fits perfectly between Bayern and Bismarck.

What you complain about has nothing to with the ship model, but the ship parameters.

 

The easiest improvement would be a higher Sigma.

[Jethro_Grey]

14 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Gneis fits perfectly between Bayern and Bismarck.

What you complain about has nothing to with the ship model, but the ship parameters.

 

The easiest improvement would be a higher Sigma.

Yep. Guns that can actually hit something would be a massive improvement. 

That's why its not gonna happen, sadly. 

[invicta2012]

19 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Gneis fits perfectly between Bayern and Bismarck.

Chronologically it does, but in playstyle it's always been a bit odd and feels even stranger now that we have the KM BC line which does all the same things, but better. If I take out Zieten (one tier up) I have 406mm guns, better secondaries, better torps.... Gneisenau feels limp in comparison.

 

8 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Yep. Guns that can actually hit something would be a massive improvement. 

That's why its not gonna happen, sadly. 

 

24 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The easiest improvement would be a higher Sigma.

A coal ship with Repulse-style gunnery would be ideal (BC Dispersion, Sigma 2.0). Balancing adjustments might be required as Gneis is a lot more durable than Repulse, but that's what I'm looking for. Just a straightforward fast battleship with good durability would be nice, and something more traditional in the Tech Tree line to replace it. 

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, invicta2012 said:

Chronologically it does, but in playstyle it's always been a bit odd and feels even stranger now that we have the KM BC line which does all the same things, but better. If I take out Zieten (one tier up) I have 406mm guns, better secondaries, better torps.... Gneisenau feels limp in comparison.

She plays quite similar to Bismarck.

And performance can be changed by adjusting the parameters. One does not need a new ship for that.

[Aragathor]

2 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

If I take out Zieten (one tier up) I have 406mm guns, better secondaries, better torps.... Gneisenau feels limp in comparison.

That's why you need to compare it to the same tier.

 

Heinrich has more DPM, but shorter range and worse reload. Higher Alpha though.

Secondaries are comparable, but Heinrich can utilize IFHE to hit even harder.

Torps are better on the Heinrich.

Heinrich has hydro, which is much better than the planes on Gneis. Heinrich's limited DCP can pose a problem.

 

What's the point of Gneisenau again?

[invicta2012]

10 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

What's the point of Gneisenau again?

That is the nub of it, really. Scharnhorst is better at Narai.  Heinrich is too, with care. Hydro is a huge advantage for a ship looking to use Secondaries or Torpedoes. And in Gneis's MM spread, Zieten does the whole fast BB thing better, Repulse does the 6 gun BC better. All Gneisenau ever had going for it was the fact it provided a different playstyle from the traditional hulking monsters of the KM BB Tech Tree line and now with the BC line, that's no longer the novelty it was. 

[triumphgt6]

I agree Gneisenau is weak but most tech trees have the odd turkey in them - I would accept that a buff to accuracy would be reasonable though. Being a British Cruiser player, the Emerald still makes me shudder!

[Haasinger]

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

She plays quite similar to Bismarck.

And performance can be changed by adjusting the parameters. One does not need a new ship for that.

 

She does not.....

Bismarck can shoots cruiser captains out of their life from 18km. Gneisenau cant even reliably hit bb citadels from 7km.

Gneisenau would be fine if secondarys wouldnt suck as they do in random battles. 

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, Haasinger said:

 

She does not.....

Bismarck can shoots cruiser captains out of their life from 18km. Gneisenau cant even reliably hit bb citadels from 7km.

Gneisenau would be fine if secondarys wouldnt suck as they do in random battles. 

Gneisenau and Bismarck have the same dispersion and the same Sigma...

[lafeel]

13 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Gneisenau and Bismarck have the same dispersion and the same Sigma...

Bismarck fakes the impression of being more accurate by having two more gun barrels.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

5 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

I was looking at my port this morning and considering the wide range of German Battleships it contains, and how much I enjoy playing them. I have a PEF, Scharnhorst, Zieten, Odin, Brandenburg, Bismarck, Tirpitz, FdG and Pommern, and could happily have more. They are well-balanced, have unique characteristics and are always fun to play.

 

And then I think of Gneisenau. Which isn't fun to play. (and I ground it out before its dispersion got buffed, when it was very *not* fun to play).

 

And the more I think of it, the more I see it as a total outlier in the German BB line. It doesn't fit between Bayern and Bismarck in the Tech Tree - it's not a sturdy brawler, doesn't have hydro, ends up with a strange/unique secondary armament of 128mm DD guns and as a BC feels like an odd, and rather incompetent duck next to Scharnhorst and Zieten.

 

I'm not too familiar with the history of German BB development but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to replace Gneis with an intermediate Bayern-Bismarck design and push the Gneis off into being a Premium VII BC, perhaps giving her the 10-12km torps from the BC line and some secondary buffs to make her an interesting counterpart to Scharnhorst? 

 

 

All Gneisenau needs to be a joy to play is a serious accuracy buff. Make her into Siegfried and I'd be fine with her. As it stands she's the worst German BB by far, and that is saying something.

[Aragathor]

30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Gneisenau and Bismarck have the same dispersion and the same Sigma...

While the main guns have been mentioned, no one reminded you about the secondaries.

 

Fully specced out Gneisenau only has 9.5 km range on  the secondaries. Bismarck has 11.5 km. That's a massive 2 km difference.

This means that to even think of utilizing the secondary battery Gneisenau must close in. And that hurts.

Gneisenau is a ship that cannot rely on its main guns and has issues performing with the secondaries.

[ColonelPete]

In the last 28 days, the Bismarck, that "shoots cruiser captains out of their life from 18km", has the same winrating as Gneisenau. And Bayern performs worse.

 

https://proships.ru/stat/eu/s/99999-h/><i class=

 

1 minute ago, Aragathor said:

While the main guns have been mentioned, no one reminded you about the secondaries.

 

Fully specced out Gneisenau only has 9.5 km range on  the secondaries. Bismarck has 11.5 km. That's a massive 2 km difference.

This means that to even think of utilizing the secondary battery Gneisenau must close in. And that hurts.

Gneisenau is a ship that cannot rely on its main guns and has issues performing with the secondaries.

The secondary ranges are common knowledge...

 

There is a Tier difference...

And no, Bismarcks secondaries do not much at 10km+. If you want an effect, that helps you on that Tier, you have to get closer too.

[Angry_Penguin18]

Gniesenau is my best performing ship (by WR) for anything with >50 battles. 

 

I think part of the problem is that people try to player her how I used to play my Pommern i.e. try to force the torps...which is fraught with danger. (I took the Pomm before tackling the KM BB line so learnt my lesson there)

[invicta2012]

9 minutes ago, Angry_Penguin18 said:

I think part of the problem is that people try to player her how I used to play my Pommern i.e. try to force the torps...which is fraught with danger

It is, but that's largely because of the terrible main guns. It feels like a ship that's very hard to do anything in other than YOLO. And it's not too good at that,  either.

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

54 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

While the main guns have been mentioned, no one reminded you about the secondaries.

 

Fully specced out Gneisenau only has 9.5 km range on  the secondaries. Bismarck has 11.5 km. That's a massive 2 km difference.

This means that to even think of utilizing the secondary battery Gneisenau must close in. And that hurts.

Gneisenau is a ship that cannot rely on its main guns and has issues performing with the secondaries.

She's a T7. She has arguably the best secondaries at or below her tier. As for relying on her main guns, I could not agree more, which is why giving her the same sigma as Scharnhorst and better dispersion would make her quite enjoyable to play without making her OP. 

[ColonelPete]

19 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

It is, but that's largely because of the terrible main guns. It feels like a ship that's very hard to do anything in other than YOLO. And it's not too good at that,  either.

If you play her like that, then it is no wonder that you have problems with the ship.

As with all close combat ships, it is a matter of timing. Getting close while half+ of the enemy team can shoot at you, is a bad idea. Make sure that only few ships, better one ship, can shoot at you.

[Ryuuteimaru]

German BB line as whole for the most part sucks just about the worst BB at most tiers the whole brawl concept just doesn't work most of the time, Secondaries are not really worth the investment needed to make them semi decent and the armor is more of a handicap than a benefit.

 

The line is old and it's really showing

[invicta2012]

2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

If you play her like that, then it is no wonder that you have problems with the ship.

I don't have problems with the ship, dear Pete-Y. It's just not fun to play, when many other German BBs are.

[imoenbg1]

If you dont have problems with the ship, why are you complaining then?

 

Nobody is forcing you to play her, not in 2022.

 

There is this thing called Free Xp.

[DirtyHeddy]

On 4/2/2022 at 12:22 PM, invicta2012 said:

IAnd then I think of Gneisenau. Which isn't fun to play. (and I ground it out before its dispersion got buffed, when it was very *not* fun to play).

She was fun to play a long time ago. When there was only Tirpitz and Gneisenau which had Torpedoes ...

Her mainguns were always inaccurate, here secondaries quite ok, her AAA was good. But that is long time ago.

But instead of replacement she needs an overhaul.

Adding of hydroacoustics, slight improvement in AAA and secondaries will do

 

[Anthoniusii]

You are looking at the wrong side of the story.

Gneisenau is not a bad ship. You are simply players that you DEMAND a ship TO DO IT ALL by its self with less interfear by you and our personal skills.

The examples in the OP are Over powerd thanks to their long range leathal 2ndaries that do the job FOR YOU instead of relying the ship in your skills as players.

The ships that need changes id the German Battlecruisers that their 2ndaries are way too powerfull to the extend to sink an enemy BB only by themselvs and you are simply watching. If you want such a game then WG should change all ships to automaticaly fire and you willk simply drive them ! That is not a game its a travesty!

[Pukovnik7]

19 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

It is, but that's largely because of the terrible main guns. It feels like a ship that's very hard to do anything in other than YOLO. And it's not too good at that,  either.

She is excellent if you can use islands to force one-on-one close range engagements. Can cause entire enemy's flank to collapse that way.

 

But of course, you need islands for that - otherwise, by the time you can close in for snacks, the game had been decided already.

50 minutes ago, Anthoniusii said:

You are looking at the wrong side of the story.

Gneisenau is not a bad ship. You are simply players that you DEMAND a ship TO DO IT ALL by its self with less interfear by you and our personal skills.

The examples in the OP are Over powerd thanks to their long range leathal 2ndaries that do the job FOR YOU instead of relying the ship in your skills as players.

The ships that need changes id the German Battlecruisers that their 2ndaries are way too powerfull to the extend to sink an enemy BB only by themselvs and you are simply watching. If you want such a game then WG should change all ships to automaticaly fire and you willk simply drive them ! That is not a game its a travesty!

If you think that secondary guns / builds require no skills simply because they shoot automatically, then you need to play secondary battleships more. They are far more demanding tactically, and even when it comes to just shooting secondaries, you are not "simply watching": you have to at very least keep effective angles of your secondaries in mind, and if you rely on secondaries only, then even enemy ship optimized for sniping will beat you.

 

And frankly, ships that rely primarily on technical skills (aiming) are bloody boring. I far prefer using WASD to using my mouse.