Mines - yay, nay, or simply blancmange?

[Catpain_Lucifurr]

So, would it be fun to add minelaying and minesweeping into the game? Not a new line of otherwise unimpressive ships, this would probably not be any fun at all. But what about adding mines and corresponding countermeasures to a game-mechanically interesting collection of ships?


Historically, lots of different ships could put out mines - and they did. More specialized ships for this job of course emerged, minelayers. To combat the mines everything from firing at them, aerial bombs, sweeping with wires, degaussing ships, and lots more. Specialized ships emerged, minesweepers and minehunters.

 

Example of minelayer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Adventure_(M23)

 

Example of minesweeper:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Abraham_Crijnssen_(1936)

 

Mines were a big deal in WW2, a real and important part of the war effort. The question is, however, would it be fun to implement something like this in the game? Maybe if submarines could run into them? Or would it simply be just as fun and engaging as a blancmange in any event? Example of such listed below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blancmange

 

Click for yay, for nay, or locate some sweetened and flavoured dessert made from gelatinous or starchy ingredients and milk for throwing purposes. Or just answer the poll.

[JohnMac79]

Just stop. We have enough trash in this game without adding more.

[CV_SUB_Report_Blacklist]

whatever will happen to submarines project , continue or discontinue , we need a convalescing for a looong time ...

[AkerJack]

I think that for something like this they need a separate mode, like operations, and specific ships as implementing them in random or ranked would be extremely complicated and complex. So Nay!

[Nagine]

This could be an interesting mechanic, but sadly too many players are overly protective. So if most players run away in terror after noticing a distant torp, imagine the gameplay with the knowledge that SOMEWHERE on map there is a mine or two...

 

EDIT: People keep reading only the first part of my sentence and ignoring the rest, so I am specifying: Mines will increase cowardliness level of a big part of playerbase (despite the actual method of implementation), which in turn will increase camping, which would not add fun to the game

[lovelacebeer]

For operations sure they are a good tool for making players follow a certain route. They were fun in Operation Dynamo for example.
 

I don’t however think they would be a good addition random battles, mind you same could be said of subs so knowing WG don’t rule it out.

[Molly_Delaney]

In a separate game mode; where one team defends and the other attacks.

 

On a much bigger map with a much longer timer. With hidden team lists...

Basically a whole different game...

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, Nagine said:

This could be an interesting mechanic, but sadly too many players are overly protective. So if most players run away in terror after noticing a distant torp, imagine the gameplay with the knowledge that SOMEWHERE on map there is a mine or two... 

I don't think you fully realize what mines are for and how they are used. Mines are a defensive tool to deny access to certain areas. Now try to fully consider that fact. What impact on gameplay would that have ? The only viable mode for mines would be Standard battle where the minelayer can actually work undisturbed on mining a specific area. And that still does not do anything to the outcome of the game because of "no cap kill all" mentality in that game mode ...

 

The only other viable alternative would be air dropped mines and we do NOT want any more CV power and influence in the game. Submarines can be used for mine laying as well, however they are not yet properly implemented anyway....

 

And as a last resort, creating a specialized class to get rid of the mines would just make a class that is good at basically nothing.

 

So no, overall a BAD idea ...

[arcticstorm123]

The Dunkirk mission had minefields and it was a PITA, restricted space to move, noobs wandering into minefields and detonating , no, just NO!!!!!

[Nagine]

20 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

So no, overall a BAD idea ...

 

I am not sure why you quoted me as I also stated that this mechanic is not possible with the current player mentality. Again:

 

22 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Mines are a defensive tool to deny access to certain areas

 

With all-out-defensive players that would be enough to stop movement in the whole map. So yes, this is a BAD idea.

[invicta2012]

9 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

And as a last resort, creating a specialized class to get rid of the mines would just make a class that is good at basically nothing.

I think they're called "Destroyers" and they're very good at most things. Every Royal Navy destroyer from the M Class onwards was capable of laying or sweeping mines (although guns or torpedo tubes might need to be shipped in compensation for the additional weight). 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Mines are a defensive tool to deny access to certain areas. Now try to fully consider that fact. What impact on gameplay would that have ? The only viable mode for mines would be Standard battle where the minelayer can actually work undisturbed on mining a specific area. And that still does not do anything to the outcome of the game because of "no cap kill all" mentality in that game mode ...

So are torpedoes. I'm sure every DD player has sent speculative torpedoes into a cap, or into a channel down which enemy ships are likely to sail.

 

I can see Mines being a very strong surface weapon in deterring pursuits / pushes, if correctly deployed. For balance reasons I wouldn't want them to be permanent, they should be detectable, avoidable through a reduction in speed, and minefields shouldn't be stackable on a map location. WG's reasoning was always that they were too much of a hazard because of the risk of friendly fire - that's gone away, although a friendly ship pushing through a minefield should defuse/remove it. 

 

There could also be ASW mines, too..... that might add a little drama to the dull undersea world we have at the moment. 

 

To be honest it's a real-world mechanic which fits in the game, has possibilities for play and counter play from all classes, and most of the downsides disappeared when friendly fire was removed. Which is clearly why it's being ignored. :)

[Hugh_Ruka]

16 minutes ago, Nagine said:

 

I am not sure why you quoted me as I also stated that this mechanic is not possible with the current player mentality. Again:

 

It is not the player mentality that makes mine not viable. It is the overall idea/heading of the game. Mines simply do not fit into an arcade kind of game. That's why I quoted you. You seem to think that only the players being against mines is an issue why they should not be considered. No, that's not it. Just look at submarines for an example of the same.

[Hugh_Ruka]

14 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

To be honest it's a real-world mechanic which fits in the game, has possibilities for play and counter play from all classes, and most of the downsides disappeared when friendly fire was removed. Which is clearly why it's being ignored. :)

This reminds me of CVs ... counterplay from all classes ... yeah sure ...

[Northern_Nightowl]

I'm outing myself for having voted "yes". This is because an idea on how to implement it just crossed my mind.

 

Imagine that the mechanics of the air strike get recycled. Minelaying would thus be a consumable akin to the ASW air drops. I would even build it in a way to disregard the range and put on the ability to basically mine every watery map square (of course, every ship gets only a severely limited supply of mines. I meant that you wouldn't be limited on where to mine, but strong caps on how much). For balancing purposes (no immediate spawn mining), a longer loading time could be handy.

 

This is a good idea because:

- Back line camping could become a dangerous manoeuvre

- CV movement may be preemptively restricted, so that counterplay moves with torpedoes (Asashio, 20km Shimakazes!) or (even blind fired) big guns at long range get more chances of success

- Mining may be a balancing tool for a play with submarines

- Mining is historically accurate

 

How it could be countered:

- Searches with hydro at somewhat of a range or the Mk.1 eyeball on short ranges.

- Demining of known mines by secondary or AA battery fire (imagine that the concussion of a HE shells detonation does the trick). Balancing: Automatic usage (but switchable, AA off also means demining off), detection penalty up to the presently standard waterborne detection range, success rate below 100% but above 50%.

- Protection by a new consumable to be added akin to repair teams: "degaussing" available up from T6 or T7 on every ship, with success rates in the range of 40 to 75% in reduction of mine triggering (mathematically somewhat similar to the magazine protection module that reduces the detonation chance by 70%).

 

What do you think about this?

 

Regards, Nightowl

[General_Alexus]

There are a few DDs with extreamly long range, hard to detect, slow torpedoes, namely German DDs or US-Black,ect. Thouse torps are already kinda working like mines, ammunition that is 1-2minutes in the area "floating" around and catching unexpected enemies not leaving the area you try to deny. So there is not realy a point in adding extra mines, thouse slow torps are taking the role of them, you wont torp any ship activly with 50knot torps.

[Procrastes]

The battle maps in WoWs are nowhere near big enough to make mines a working proposition. Any ship with a mine-laying capacity would be able to convert large areas of the map into no-go zones, which would destroy the last element of tactical maneuvering that survived the introduction of CV:s. The only ship types that would have access to the full maps would be CV:s, whose planes would fly over the minefields, and submarines, who would dive under them. (And I hope that Wargaming's development department are not reading this, by the way).

 

I vote nay.

[Nagine]

31 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Mines simply do not fit into an arcade kind of game.

 

We already have a form of mines implemented in this game (Sim's crawling mines) and they perfectly work as a TEMPORARY mechanic to reroute enemy. So as an idea/mechanic they have a place in an arcade game (thinking and tactics have a place in an arcade game, after all).

However, their negative impact on overall player behavior/gameplay would definitely remove fun from the game even further.

[Hugh_Ruka]

17 minutes ago, Nagine said:

 

We already have a form of mines implemented in this game (Sim's crawling mines) and they perfectly work as a TEMPORARY mechanic to reroute enemy. So as an idea/mechanic they have a place in an arcade game (thinking and tactics have a place in an arcade game, after all).

However, their negative impact on overall player behavior/gameplay would definitely remove fun from the game even further.

I am at a loss here ... are you joking or are you that dense ? Either we are discussing mines or torpedoes.

 

Mines have only ONE purpose, stop enemy movement through certain areas. They are deployed in stealth or before hostilities start. While DDs dropping mines COULD work, mine sweeping would be an entirely different thing.

 

Seriously try to outline the mechanics in some reasonable detail and not just snarky comments about slow torpedoes .... then we can have a discussion ... as it is now, there's no point.

[Chips_uk]

Yeah why not. I mean, there's plenty of fancy/fantasy stuff added that's horrific, add mines - at least they're historic. Gives them an entire ship line for every nation to get people grinding / spending that cash, more port slots etc. Great idea to pad out the game with more content that no-one will want.

 

They've plenty of variables to play with - homing mines, deep water mines, clusters of mines, air drop mines, a new dedicated counter mine class...  can really screw up balance with that and what could be more fun than navigating aware of invisi mines.

[Nagine]

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I am at a loss here ... are you joking or are you that dense ? Either we are discussing mines or torpedoes.

 

Mines have only ONE purpose, stop enemy movement through certain areas. They are deployed in stealth or before hostilities start. While DDs dropping mines COULD work, mine sweeping would be an entirely different thing.

 

Seriously try to outline the mechanics in some reasonable detail and not just snarky comments about slow torpedoes .... then we can have a discussion ... as it is now, there's no point.

 

You understand that the discussed poll is not about a specific mine mechanic, but about the plausibility or need of mines? This is an arcade game, so mines doesn't have to be a permanent object manually put into place - there are hundreds of different ways how they can be implemented. You were the one who stated that there a limited possibilities to find place for them in an arcade game.

One possibility is to follow slow torps example and simply be an immobile + low-detection torp equivalent = we have a working mechanic that "stops enemy movement through certain areas. They are deployed in stealth or before hostilities start."

 

Working mechanic is an easy part. Player reaction to it is a more complex thing.

[DBM82_KRKA]

4 hours ago, Nagine said:

This could be an interesting mechanic, but sadly too many players are overly protective. So if most players run away in terror after noticing a distant torp, imagine the gameplay with the knowledge that SOMEWHERE on map there is a mine or two... 

Right....let's promote more passive gameplay, more A line camping.....we just don't have enough of that atm 

[Adm_Lindemann]

Actually, this one is a bad idea. I can imagine, that it would work in operations or in a special game mode but I'm afraid that veegee wouldn't resist this temptation and they would implement it in random and competitive. In those modes, there are more than enough shits and broken mechanics, we don't need more.

[invicta2012]

3 hours ago, Procrastes said:

Any ship with a mine-laying capacity would be able to convert large areas of the map into no-go zones, which would destroy the last element of tactical maneuvering that survived the introduction of CV:s.

Only if badly balanced. I certainly wouldn't want to see large scale minefields or permanent ones. It's more the brave, unexpected positioning of a hazard, the sort of thing which happened during the bombardent of the Dardanelles. I don't think it's a game-defining mechanism but as a way of adding additional playstyles to existing ships, I'm very much in favour. WG can't keep on adding ship lines to the game without additional permutations, variations and ways to play. 

[Hugh_Ruka]

2 hours ago, Nagine said:

 

You understand that the discussed poll is not about a specific mine mechanic, but about the plausibility or need of mines? This is an arcade game, so mines doesn't have to be a permanent object manually put into place - there are hundreds of different ways how they can be implemented. You were the one who stated that there a limited possibilities to find place for them in an arcade game.

One possibility is to follow slow torps example and simply be an immobile + low-detection torp equivalent = we have a working mechanic that "stops enemy movement through certain areas. They are deployed in stealth or before hostilities start."

 

Working mechanic is an easy part. Player reaction to it is a more complex thing.

then we are not talking about mines anymore ... you have to match the reality to the game concept somehow, otherwise it will just confuse people and nobody will like it ... or you cannot call it mines ...

[Procrastes]

On 3/24/2022 at 2:35 PM, invicta2012 said:

Only if badly balanced. I certainly wouldn't want to see large scale minefields or permanent ones. It's more the brave, unexpected positioning of a hazard, the sort of thing which happened during the bombardent of the Dardanelles. I don't think it's a game-defining mechanism but as a way of adding additional playstyles to existing ships, I'm very much in favour. WG can't keep on adding ship lines to the game without additional permutations, variations and ways to play. 

I concede that from a purely mechanical perspective, it would be perfectly possible to add a small-scale mine-laying feature with non-permanent mines to the game. As has already been noted in some previous posts, it could be argued that we already have such mines in the game, in the form of some of the more slow-moving torpedoes (those of the USS Black come to mind; they move with all the speed of a typical glacier and hit approximately as hard). For all their apparent likenesses, though, these are not mines - they are torpedoes. They move through an area until they either hit something and explode, or run out of steam and sink/disappear. They work conceptually within the arcade framework while still representing the idea of a torpedo well enough to create the right balance of function and immersion.

 

Mines, while sharing some of the general charcteristics of torpedoes - such as buoyancy and a propensity for exploding on contact - still differ from the latter in that they are predominantly static. Unless somehow freed from their mooring - which is generally done accidentally rather than deliberately - they are basically part of the geography. Although I cannot claim to know that it hasn't happened, I have never heard of sea mines being used as an offensive weapon during an active engagement.* If their WoWs characteristics were to be tweaked enough so that they would function as an offensive weapon within the framework of the game, I suspect that they would come across as being simply "too silly", which in turn would not be good for the game experience as it would hurt the sense of immersion.

 

Having said this, please let me assure you that I do welcome any efforts at brainstorming in order to bring fresh ideas to the game. So both you and @Catpain_Lucifurr get a huge plus for that! Personally, though, I remain sceptical to the idea of having an active mine-laying feature in the World of Warships. Mines are to their very nature static, and I believe that they would make the game more static as well. They might work out as part of some kind of special game mode or scenario, but hardly as a general feature in the game.

 

 

* If this has in fact occurred, please do let me know about it!