Lion Class Hybrid Carrier

[Ocsimano18]

I was reading about the Lion and found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-class_battleship

Hybrid aircraft carrier[edit]

On 8 January 1941, Rear-Admiral Bruce Fraser, Third Sea Lord and Controller of the Navy, asked the DNC to work up a hybrid aircraft carrier based on the Lion-class hull. Two months later, a sketch design was presented for consideration, but it was not well regarded by the participants. This design retained all three main gun turrets and the flight deck was deemed too short to be useful.^[23] A revised version with only the two forward turrets retained was requested and was ready in July. In this design, the displacement ranged from 44,750 long tons (45,470 t) at standard load and 51,000 long tons (52,000 t) at deep load. The design's dimensions included a waterline length of 800 feet (243.8 m), a beam of 115 feet (35.1 m) and a draught of 29 feet 6 inches (8.99 m). The flight deck was 500 feet (152.4 m) long and had a width of 73 feet (22.3 m). The machinery was unchanged, but another 600 long tons (610 t) of oil increased her endurance to 14,750 nautical miles (27,320 km; 16,970 mi) at 10 knots. The hybrid's armament consisted of six 16-inch guns in two triple turrets, sixteen 5.25-inch guns and eight octuple 2-pounder mounts. Twelve fighters and two torpedo bombers could be carried. The Director of Naval Gunnery's assessment was that "The functions and requirements of carriers and of surface gun platforms are entirely incompatible ... the conceptions of these designs ... is evidently the result of an unresolved contest between a conscious acceptance of aircraft and a subconscious desire for a 1914 Fleet ... these abortions are the results of a psychological maladjustment. The necessary readjustments should result from a proper re-analysis of the whole question, what would be a balanced fleet in 1945, 1950 or 1955?"^[24] The design was rejected.^[25]

 

I expect WG to get this design into the game, sooner or later.

[lovelacebeer]

I’m sure such a ship will come out as a premium  at some point. 

[Procrastes]

I have a private bet running as to when we will see the hybrid submarine/aircraft carrier, the I-400, in the game. Combining the two most toxic elements in World of Warships, it will stand as a symbol of Wargaming's dedicated efforts to destroy their own game.

 

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine

 

 

 

[Nagine]

36 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I have a private bet running as to when we will see the hybrid submarine/aircraft carrier, the I-400, in the game. Combining the two most toxic elements in World of Warships, it will stand as a symbol of Wargaming's dedicated efforts to destroy their own game.

 

Yeah, those scary Ise planes will surely crush tier X AA into oblivion :)

[Tanaka_15]

43 minutes ago, Nagine said:

 

Yeah, those scary Ise planes will surely crush tier X AA into oblivion :)

In wg world? Yeah. BTW what you even mean by "AA"?

[Miragetank90]

''The Director of Naval Gunnery's assessment was that "The functions and requirements of carriers and of surface gun platforms are entirely incompatible ... the conceptions of these designs ... is evidently the result of an unresolved contest between a conscious acceptance of aircraft and a subconscious desire for a 1914 Fleet ... these abortions are the results of a psychological maladjustment. The necessary readjustments should result from a proper re-analysis of the whole question, what would be a balanced fleet in 1945, 1950 or 1955?"[24] The design was rejected.''

 

 

 

[Procrastes]

2 hours ago, Nagine said:

Yeah, those scary Ise planes will surely crush tier X AA into oblivion :)

For what it's worth, I don't think the I-400 in and of itself will be much of a problem. Like most other hybrids, it will probably earn its living by performing its twin duties very badly. Anyone who has been witness to the sad spectacle of an Ise battleship/carrier parking itself behind an island close to the map border and spending the entire battle launching a small number of insignificant plane sorties at an indifferent enemy, will know what I'm talking about.

 

No, I will regard the I-400 as a symbol. It will stand as an icon of bad design choices, in history as well as in this game. A beacon to highlight gimmicks at the expense of gameplay quality, empty phrases in lieu of two-way communication, and the near-complete disregard for player feedback that started with the CV rework and has seen its clearest exponent yet in the submarine project.

 

Unless Wargaming decides to give the I-400 the ability to use its planes to scout for itself while submerged - which, mind you, is something I wouldn't put entirely past them - I don't see it ever becoming more than a passing nuisance compared to its pure-bred cousins.

[BLUB__BLUB]

11 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Like most other hybrids, it will probably earn its living by performing its twin duties very badly. Anyone who has been witness to the sad spectacle of an Ise battleship/carrier parking itself behind an island close to the map border and spending the entire battle launching a small number of insignificant plane sorties at an indifferent enemy, will know what I'm talking about.

Maybe you'd care to elaborate... I dunno what you mean, and I am thorougly potato.

 

Solo WR:

 

Div-2 is somehow kinda crud. I think mostly because usually T8 uptiered. 

 

Div-3 though...

[RuruushuVuiBuritania]

3 hours ago, Procrastes said:

I have a private bet running as to when we will see the hybrid submarine/aircraft carrier, the I-400, in the game. Combining the two most toxic elements in World of Warships, it will stand as a symbol of Wargaming's dedicated efforts to destroy their own game.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine

 

 

 

You have already won. There was a significant period of time where you could find the I-401 in the tech tree using the extended tech tree mod.

[Procrastes]

35 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Maybe you'd care to elaborate... I dunno what you mean, and I am thorougly potato.

Spoiler

35 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Solo WR:

 

Div-2 is somehow kinda crud. I think mostly because usually T8 uptiered. 

 

Div-3 though...

 

Impressive stats! 

(Compared to mine, and considering that you call yourself a potato, I hesitate to speculate on what sort of turnip that would make me...! )

 

You ask me to elaborate? Well, I'm not saying that you can't do well in a hybrid ship in WoWs. On the contrary, that tier IX one in the US Navy, the Kearsarge, is by most accounts quite strong if played properly. But the number of players that will be able to use these hybrid ships to their full potential is probably rather small - and if you fail to put that potential to use, I suspect that the hybrid capabilities are going to be more of a distraction than an asset. The situation with the Ise that I described in my previous post is the best example I can provide out of my own experience, and I freely admit that don't have any statistics available to back up my observations. 

 

If I should sum up my personal experiences of these hybrid ships so far, I'd say that I've just never felt their presence as anything much to take note of. I wish I could say the same about CV:s and subs.

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Impressive stats! 

(Compared to mine, and considering that you call yourself a potato, I hesitate to speculate on what sort of turnip that would make me...! )

Thanks, but your stats are better than mine - your general average is around 3% better than mine, actually. 

I just seem to like some ships and hate others (and they hate me back as well). My average is crud. 

 

4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

You ask me to elaborate? Well, I'm not saying that you can't do well in a hybrid ship in WoWs. On the contrary, that tier IX one in the US Navy, the Kearsarge, is by most accounts quite strong if played properly. But the number of players that will be able to use these hybrid ships to their full potential is probably rather small - and if you fail to put that potential to use, I suspect that the hybrid capabilities are going to be more of a distraction than an asset. The situation with the Ise that I described in my previous post is the best example I can provide out of my own experience, and I freely admit that don't have any statistics available to back up my observations. 

Yes, it is up to the player to make the best use of it. I dunno about the others though. I always calculate ships vs beer. 

Ise definitely gives me similar enjoyment as her price in beer. I doubt if Tone (twice as much cash) would do that. 
Maybe someday I'll get myself a Kearsarge, so far I'm not really impressed  by what I have seen though... 

 

4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

If I should sum up my personal experiences of these hybrid ships so far, I'd say that I've just never felt their presence as anything much to take note of. I wish I could say the same about CV:s and subs.

You'll notice for sure if you meet me in Ise. 

I'll use the guns, as should, because it is a BB. Many cruisers have been DEF-blapped... accuracy is good.

Bow in it can tank BBs same as any other. The problem for them is I can also dump them from the side (and I will). 

It has 8 torps... which can also be a "nice anti-DD wall of skill''... as many of them found out in T6 CB.

Since I do play CV as well, I know how to do it... this thing is rather OP. If you can't shoot it, torp it.

You also provide spotting for your teammates. Quite apparently you'll need two as only the one can't farm hard enough...

 

 

[Nagine]

3 hours ago, Tanaka_15 said:

In wg world? Yeah. BTW what you even mean by "AA"?

It is also know as stat "Avg. planes destroyed" and it seems some Tier X ships are quite adequate at it. So maybe there is some hope even against those flying Ise monsters...

 

Gouden Leeuw

10

5.2

[Tanaka_15]

1 minute ago, Nagine said:

It is also know as stat "Avg. planes destroyed" and it seems some Tier X ships are quite adequate at it. So maybe there is some hope even against those flying Ise monsters...

 

Gouden Leeuw

10

5.2

aah you mean the pif paff that do exactly nothing. Well it deas pif paff most of the ships. Im still unsure what for but looks kinda cool. 

[Nagine]

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

For what it's worth, I don't think the I-400 in and of itself will be much of a problem. Like most other hybrids, it will probably earn its living by performing its twin duties very badly. Anyone who has been witness to the sad spectacle of an Ise battleship/carrier parking itself behind an island close to the map border and spending the entire battle launching a small number of insignificant plane sorties at an indifferent enemy, will know what I'm talking about.

 

No, I will regard the I-400 as a symbol.

 

I wonder what any ship with island ignoring radar and other random protective gimmick symbolizes? The camper's idol?

I understand the toxicity of current implementation of CVs. But current hybrids or even submarines are just a variety and a potential way to break 20 km camper spots. So I'm all for a dynamic gameplay that is not reliant on memorized Youtube camping spots.

[Nagine]

6 minutes ago, Tanaka_15 said:

aah you mean the pif paff that do exactly nothing. Well it deas pif paff most of the ships. Im still unsure what for but looks kinda cool. 

Hm, if that pif paff destroys something and earns XP is it really nothing? And it seems that nothingness is better at Tier X than in Tier 6. Strange...

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, Nagine said:

Hm, if that pif paff destroys something and earns XP is it really nothing? And it seems that nothingness is better at Tier X than in Tier 6. Strange...

The problem there (as you may or may not know) is as follows:

- Yes AA shoots some planes, however it is ineffective due to:

1. DPS (continuous) damage affecting the LAST plane... not the ones that are attacking...
2. FLAK, being "steered"by the CV-player (it calculates the "straight projected route, like a b0t);

3. FLAK, when a plane gets shot down, it magically gets replaced by "one from above" (unless they are all dead, but well, last plane... see 1) 

 

As such, yes you can shoot down planes but it will not stop or even negate an attack. At least not the first drop.
And when the attrition (amount of plane kills) is not high enough, the CV can do such a "first attack" all the time. 

He might lose 2 torpedo-planes, but he carries on with the rockets, then the bombers, and after that those 2 planes have re-spawned.
He will then still have a full  squad. Plane loss doesn't mean a thing, as long as it is "bearable".  

[Nagine]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The problem there (as you may or may not know) is as follows:

- Yes AA shoots some planes, however it is ineffective due to:

1. DPS (continuous) damage affecting the LAST plane... not the ones that are attacking...
2. FLAK, being "steered"by the CV-player (it calculates the "straight projected route, like a b0t);

3. FLAK, when a plane gets shot down, it magically gets replaced by "one from above" (unless they are all dead, but well, last plane... see 1) 

 

As such, yes you can shoot down planes but it will not stop or even negate an attack. At least not the first drop.
And when the attrition (amount of plane kills) is not high enough, the CV can do such a "first attack" all the time. 

He might lose 2 torpedo-planes, but he carries on with the rockets, then the bombers, and after that those 2 planes have re-spawned.
He will then still have a full  squad. Plane loss doesn't mean a thing, as long as it is "bearable".  

Are you just repeating the description of AA effects on the SAME tier aircraft, without considering that Ise planes are Tier 6? Current AA is bad, but it is not useless and can fully stop 4 tiers lower air attack (especially that has Ise planes' torp spread). It seems Tone isn't wrecking havoc at tier 8 with the same planes.

[SkollUlfr]

iirc, part of what sunk kaga was her damage control was hamstrung by her compartment layout being that of a cruiser.

combining that with rn ships being a bunch of port queens prone to being "hooded", im sure some solace could be taken by players facing this ship, if it was suitably prone to flash fires and magazine detonations.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Nagine said:

Are you just repeating the description of AA effects on the SAME tier aircraft, without considering that Ise planes are Tier 6? Current AA is bad, but it is not useless and can fully stop 4 tiers lower air attack (especially that has Ise planes' torp spread). It seems Tone isn't wrecking havoc at tier 8 with the same planes.

I have no problems faildivving Ise into T9... as I do with Ark Royal, and Ryujo. 
Take a divmate with a T7, then go to battle. Sometimes you get T9. It is NOT a problem. 

 

The effects ARE the same, that means FLAK is avoidable, so is DPS.

Manoeuvre smart to stay out of FLAK. Drop before you enter DPS. 

Eh and yes Ise has 8 torps... you can not get them all into a cruiser, if that cruiser is standing still. 

However, once they are "fully aimed" you can turn the planes and they'll STAY fully aimed (or converged).

You can definitely get them ALL into a moving BB... or CA... no problems there. 

Also it doesn't matter if you lose all planes after a drop... you ALWAYS get new ones. 

 

I do not have Tone (as it is more than double the price). But I do not think the problem is the planes.

The main problem with Tone for me would be the same as any cruiser: it is blappable. 

Ise you just put bow-in when you fly the planes... engage auto-pilot, put speed to 25%.

Not much will happen, maybe a fire. Tone = BLAP (I have done it... with Ise... Tone at 18km... load AP... K-BOOM).

You will also have to get much closer with Tone to work the guns (15.7km vs 21.4km range). 

 

BTW when I faildiv Ark Royal to T9... those are T4 planes... 

I find Ise planes rather sturdy. They're better than those of Kaga (which is T8). 

Kaga (torpedo) planes: 1600 HP, rest has less. Ise torpedo planes: 1820HP. 

 

[Nagine]

4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I have no problems faildivving Ise into T9... as I do with Ark Royal, and Ryujo. 
Take a divmate with a T7, then go to battle. Sometimes you get T9. It is NOT a problem. 

 

The effects ARE the same, that means FLAK is avoidable, so is DPS.

Manoeuvre smart to stay out of FLAK. Drop before you enter DPS. 

Eh and yes Ise has 8 torps... you can not get them all into a cruiser, if that cruiser is standing still. 

However, once they are "fully aimed" you can turn the planes and they'll STAY fully aimed (or converged).

You can definitely get them ALL into a moving BB... or CA... no problems there. 

Also it doesn't matter if you lose all planes after a drop... you ALWAYS get new ones. 

 

I do not have Tone (as it is more than double the price). But I do not think the problem is the planes.

The main problem with Tone for me would be the same as any cruiser: it is blappable. 

Ise you just put bow-in when you fly the planes... engage auto-pilot, put speed to 25%.

Not much will happen, maybe a fire. Tone = BLAP (I have done it... with Ise... Tone at 18km... load AP... K-BOOM).

You will also have to get much closer with Tone to work the guns (15.7km vs 21.4km range). 

 

BTW when I faildiv Ark Royal to T9... those are T4 planes... 

I find Ise planes rather sturdy. They're better than those of Kaga (which is T8). 

Kaga (torpedo) planes: 1600 HP, rest has less. Ise torpedo planes: 1820HP. 

 

If those hybrid planes are so good and AA is so useless (so, essentially a free unlimited damage), why neither Tone nor Ise players are using them as main damage dealers? Are there no islands for Tone to hide behind or border lines for Ise to scratch on?

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Nagine said:

If those hybrid planes are so good and AA is so useless (so, essentially a free unlimited damage), why neither Tone nor Ise players are using them as main damage dealers? Are there no islands for Tone to hide behind or border lines for Ise to scratch on?

I don't know why. Half my damage in Ise comes from the planes, usually. And it is more reliable than the damage from the guns. 

BTW you do not need to hide at map border with Ise. I go the same as in a normal BB, just more nose-in. It will not get blapped.

Tone would be a different thing, that will need to hide behind/beside an island as most cruisers do. 

[Nagine]

4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I don't know why. Half my damage in Ise comes from the planes, usually. 

Event in Tier 9 games you mentioned? So what are the total damage in these games?

[WWDragon]

6 hours ago, Ocsimano18 said:

... these abortions are the results of a psychological maladjustment. 

 

[WWDragon]

5 hours ago, Procrastes said:

I have a private bet running as to when we will see the hybrid submarine/aircraft carrier, the I-400, in the game.

Japan had the Type B1, AM Type and the Sentoku Type (I-400,I-401 and I-402).

Overall 25 were build (20 Type B1, 2 AM Type and the 3 Sentoku), as much people like go over the I-400 the IJN did had submarines with floatplanes since 1938 when I-15 started being build, you dont need a crystal ball to see the Tier VI, VII and X submarine tree just like I dont need it to see this kind of low effort Karma farming responses.

[Tanaka_15]

1 hour ago, Nagine said:

Hm, if that pif paff destroys something and earns XP is it really nothing? And it seems that nothingness is better at Tier X than in Tier 6. Strange...

@BLUB__BLUB answerd you. AA dont work no matter what tier we are speaking about. So in t10 you have more pif paff and cv get the dmg in t6 you have less pif paff and cv get the dmg.