Schlieffen made to push or not?

[RamboCras]

Hi,

 

I love secondary BBs. Love pushing! I was devastated as the secondaries were nerved, my first 2 games are always Mass and Tirp. So when the secondaries were fixed a bit, YAY. In the old days, you could TRUST your secondaries to finish off a DD as you would focus on another ship... we are not there yet.. but much better than before

 

 

Then the Schlieffen came out... with secondaries you can trust. People say it has cruiser accuracy, well... I think my gunners missed that training. The secondaries are GREAT, the health pool is not. I f you push and there is like a smoked DD and another BB there... you burn and die. Basically, guns, armour, health sucks and secondaries are awesome, the torps are nice with 13.5km but their support is more a bonus than reliability.

 

How can you create a BB for pushing (finally!!) but not the armour to survive or even sustain (for a reasonable time) the push?  

 

 

My current gameplay is play in the back till the end game.. and then move up... :-( I would love it to be a little more tanky so your role in the beginning would be more active.

 

 

[Vbeest]

18 minutes ago, RamboCras said:

Hi,

 

I love secondary BBs. Love pushing! I was devastated as the secondaries were nerved, my first 2 games are always Mass and Tirp. So when the secondaries were fixed a bit, YAY. In the old days, you could TRUST your secondaries to finish off a DD as you would focus on another ship... we are not there yet.. but much better than before

 

 

Then the Schlieffen came out... with secondaries you can trust. People say it has cruiser accuracy, well... I think my gunners missed that training. The secondaries are GREAT, the health pool is not. I f you push and there is like a smoked DD and another BB there... you burn and die. Basically, guns, armour, health sucks and secondaries are awesome, the torps are nice with 13.5km but their support is more a bonus than reliability.

 

How can you create a BB for pushing (finally!!) but not the armour to survive or even sustain (for a reasonable time) the push?  

 

 

My current gameplay is play in the back till the end game.. and then move up... :-( I would love it to be a little more tanky so your role in the beginning would be more active.

 

 

You got the point - Schlieffen and in particular Rupprecht desperately need a buff.

[General_Alexus]

1 minute ago, RamboCras said:

Hi,

 

I love secondary BBs. Love pushing! I was devastated as the secondaries were nerved, my first 2 games are always Mass and Tirp. So when the secondaries were fixed a bit, YAY. In the old days, you could TRUST your secondaries to finish off a DD as you would focus on another ship... we are not there yet.. but much better than before

 

 

Then the Schlieffen came out... with secondaries you can trust. People say it has cruiser accuracy, well... I think my gunners missed that training. The secondaries are GREAT, the health pool is not. I f you push and there is like a smoked DD and another BB there... you burn and die. Basically, guns, armour, health sucks and secondaries are awesome, the torps are nice with 13.5km but their support is more a bonus than reliability.

 

How can you create a BB for pushing (finally!!) but not the armour to survive or even sustain (for a reasonable time) the push?  

 

 

My current gameplay is play in the back till the end game.. and then move up... :-( I would love it to be a little more tanky so your role in the beginning would be more active.

 

 

Translation: WG give me the facerollship I always dreamed of because I suck at the already too strong Schlieffen.

Ok we can close this threat now.

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, RamboCras said:

How can you create a BB for pushing (finally!!) but not the armour to survive or even sustain (for a reasonable time) the push?  

By not creating a ship where you press 4xW and the secondaries do all the work for you.

 

You have to actually time your push to exploit weaknesses in the enemy position.

[GarrusBrutus]

Schlieffen is so incredibly OP in ranked, where it is quite easy to create close quarter situations. Idk about randoms, but it is the same as with the Pommern: OP in one gamemode, kinda meh in randoms.

Defenitely doesnt need buffs of any sort, because that would be gamebreaking.

It is already c*ncer to fight against those OP secondaries.

[Yedwy]

14 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Schlieffen is so incredibly OP in ranked, where it is quite easy to create close quarter situations. Idk about randoms, but it is the same as with the Pommern: OP in one gamemode, kinda meh in randoms.

Defenitely doesnt need buffs of any sort, because that would be gamebreaking.

It is already c*ncer to fight against those OP secondaries.

Its a culmination of a yolo BB line, they are literally designed so the "muh I only play BB and want the battle to be over for me in 5-6 minutes" guy can actually have decent-ish damage and ship trading stats, T7+ literally is unstoppable in that regard unless heavy focus brings it down, she WILL come in and she will do damage with trops and guns and trade even if she needs to ram, there is little one can do to stop her, long rage hydro ensures incoming torps are much less of an issue and in return the DD often gets smacked as there just isnt enough time to run away form the yolo... Total BS BB line

[tocqueville8]

46 minutes ago, RamboCras said:

How can you create a BB for pushing (finally!!) but not the armour to survive or even sustain (for a reasonable time) the push?  

 

If she had both she would be simply OP: why snipe at range if you can push AND have great armor/hp to do so "safely"?

[GarrusBrutus]

1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

Its a culmination of a yolo BB line, they are literally designed so the "muh I only play BB and want the battle to be over for me in 5-6 minutes" guy can actually have decent-ish damage and ship trading stats, T7+ literally is unstoppable in that regard unless heavy focus brings it down, she WILL come in and she will do damage with trops and guns and trade even if she needs to ram, there is little one can do to stop her, long rage hydro ensures incoming torps are much less of an issue and in return the DD often gets smacked as there just isnt enough time to run away form the yolo... Total BS BB line

100% agree. Been playing quite a bit of ranked lately and it wasnt uncommon to have up to 6 Schlieffens per game. At some point i just switched from mino/DM to Hindenburg just to farm out these secondary pepega ships from range.

 

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

45 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Schlieffen is so incredibly OP in ranked, where it is quite easy to create close quarter situations. Idk about randoms, but it is the same as with the Pommern: OP in one gamemode, kinda meh in randoms.

Defenitely doesnt need buffs of any sort, because that would be gamebreaking.

It is already c*ncer to fight against those OP secondaries.

 

But only when played properly (and that is very very rare)... if you (as opponent) know how to fight the Schlieffen in your BB (for example Yamato and/or Ohio) you can kill 1-2 Schlieffens per game easily...

 

I had many "Ranked Silver" games where I easily killed 2 Schlieffens who didn't know how to play the ship properly and thought that I would be intimidated by secondaries... 2-3 15-20K+ salvos later and they were running away like rabbits - but it was always too late...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[MacFergus]

1 hour ago, RamboCras said:

How can you create a BB for pushing (finally!!) but not the armour to survive or even sustain (for a reasonable time) the push?  

Because then they created the Pan Asian cruisers to stop any such pushing it seems the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at WG.

[Yedwy]

39 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

Because then they created the Pan Asian cruisers to stop any such pushing it seems the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at WG.

Sorry to say m8 but the pan-asians are even more useless in stopping them then the DDs, yes you have lot of torps and yes schlieffen will die BUT the average Schlieffen player doesnt even try to survive they just yolo, kill the pan asian cruiser in smoke, drop fish both sides do 80k damage in 5min call their team noobz and move on to the next match

[GulvkluderGuld]

2 hours ago, RamboCras said:

Then the Schlieffen came out... with secondaries you can trust.

From my experience in ranked, Schlieffen is blatantly overpowered already.

Unless the objective is to create a braindead faceroll ship with automated gunners so BBs can finally stop looking at the screen while playing, no buffs are needed.

 

Those "trustworthy" socondaries out-dpm'ed a full gunboat harugumo i was fighting in my Småland from a full 10 km away (i lost obviously) each doing about 10k dmg.

They also make open water gunboat DDs unplayable, have hydro to dodge torps and those same secondaries make yolo rushing it suicide, even from behind islands. They also melt cruisers and if they dont do it fast enough, there's always those massive torpedo batteries on each side.

 

In short, the only way to stop one is BB guns or long range HE spam, so the poor armor is required for balance.

It's either bad armor or bring back Stealth Fire to the game (i think nobody misses that). 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Schlieffen hitpool and armor are designed for facing a part of the potential damage facing 12 random enemies. In ranked it is facing, for arguments sake, 0.58 of that potential damage. Its strong points do not scale down as much. Much like carriers having the exact same reserves when facing 12 or 7 enemies. Its stupid. Kind of.

[Ocsimano18]

18 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Schlieffen is so incredibly OP in ranked, where it is quite easy to create close quarter situations. Idk about randoms, but it is the same as with the Pommern: OP in one gamemode, kinda meh in randoms.

Defenitely doesnt need buffs of any sort, because that would be gamebreaking.

It is already c*ncer to fight against those OP secondaries.

Schlieffen is OP against subpar players. You just have to keep distance and focus a pushing Schlieffen. You say that Schlieffen is strong if you know positioning and when to time the push. But having this knowledge, it’s also easy to counter a Schlieffen, just by positioning and knowing when she’s about to push.

[SodaBubbles]

4 hours ago, Ocsimano18 said:

Schlieffen is OP against subpar players. You just have to keep distance and focus a pushing Schlieffen. You say that Schlieffen is strong if you know positioning and when to time the push. But having this knowledge, it’s also easy to counter a Schlieffen, just by positioning and knowing when she’s about to push.

I play Republic and Ohio and ripping schiffs for 20-30K and a cit is always a pleasure in those things. They dont have Schiff secondaries but they will do damage and start fires too. 

 

Bingo. It's not the schiffs I fear, but the broken unkillable Russian cruisers that are impervious to close range fire if bow-on and Shiki. Yammy can also be a terror. But Schiff I tend to regard as food, few people know how to play them well. 

[GarrusBrutus]

4 hours ago, Ocsimano18 said:

Schlieffen is OP against subpar players. You just have to keep distance and focus a pushing Schlieffen. You say that Schlieffen is strong if you know positioning and when to time the push. But having this knowledge, it’s also easy to counter a Schlieffen, just by positioning and knowing when she’s about to push.

Thats easier said than done mate. It sounds easy in theory, but in reality it is often difficult due to either incapable DDs who don't spot and map layouts with lots of islands. Ofcourse I know very well not to push into them but often when they get spotted they're already within 13km. And even if I started kiting in advance, their secondaries just melt me. Whilst running at max secondary range. That is just retarded. 

[Yedwy]

5 hours ago, Ocsimano18 said:

Schlieffen is OP against subpar players. You just have to keep distance and focus a pushing Schlieffen. You say that Schlieffen is strong if you know positioning and when to time the push. But having this knowledge, it’s also easy to counter a Schlieffen, just by positioning and knowing when she’s about to push.

No its not easy m8, Schlieffen and the rest of them past T7 are not made to push they are made to YOLO specifically in Randoms/Ranked those ships are meant for the braindead a*e to be able to go in, do damage while dying and move on, simple as that...

 

Btw did anyone notice we are getting more and more such ships of late?

[DrPhibes]

Every Schlieffen I see goes straight to the nearest cap, dies immediately and then complains about the lack of support.

[Nibenay78]

4 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

Every Schlieffen I see goes straight to the nearest cap, dies immediately and then complains about the lack of support.

Because people think it's great for pushing. Which it is if you're 1 on 1.

But it's just great in ANY 1 vs 1 situations, which is what one should aim to create if possible.

3 hours ago, Yedwy said:

No its not easy m8, Schlieffen and the rest of them past T7 are not made to push they are made to YOLO specifically in Randoms/Ranked those ships are meant for the braindead a*e to be able to go in, do damage while dying and move on, simple as that...

 

Btw did anyone notice we are getting more and more such ships of late?

Yoloing in randoms before midgame gives about 0 damage anyways :P

[Yedwy]

4 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Yoloing in randoms before midgame gives about 0 damage anyways :P

Not in Schlieffen, she has fast DCP and speed so even the dumbest ape wont get burned down before he can get in range with those torps...

[Nibenay78]

Just now, Yedwy said:

Not in Schlieffen, she has fast DCP and speed so even the dumbest ape wont get burned down before he can get in range with those torps...

But the shell traps and point blank AP spam from other BBs will 

[Takethatyoubeast]

On 2/12/2022 at 12:40 PM, Yedwy said:

Sorry to say m8 but the pan-asians are even more useless in stopping them then the DDs, yes you have lot of torps and yes schlieffen will die BUT the average Schlieffen player doesnt even try to survive they just yolo, kill the pan asian cruiser in smoke, drop fish both sides do 80k damage in 5min call their team noobz and move on to the next match

And that’s bad……is it 😂

 

Dont have Schliefen yet but you’ve summarised 99% of the games I’ve seen her in 

[Yedwy]

19 minutes ago, Takethatyoubeast said:

And that’s bad……is it 😂

 

Dont have Schliefen yet but you’ve summarised 99% of the games I’ve seen her in 

Yes it actually is if you intend to win, doing yolos rarely contributes much to winning unless you can guarantee multiple trade in say Ranked where teams are small

[Zerberus76]

Schlieffen, like all battlecruisers, was never intended to be a front of the line tank, and should not be played as one while simultaneously expecting decent results.  Cruiser is very much the effective part of the ship`s class description.

The whole point of having a fast ship with big guns and good concealment are hit and run attacks. The proper playstyle is much more "Hide, hit hard, run, repeat" than "follow me, I´ll draw their fire while you do damage"

The "problem" (it isn´t one) is that Schlieffen does not have the healthpool or armor to withstand sustained focus fire. Nor does for ex. the Repulse. And they shouldn't.  Their primary advantage is their superior mobility and concealment.  Their armament of the Schlieffen is already on par with most T10 battleships... if you give her a larger health pool, you basically invalidate all existing battleships because now there are ships like Schlieffen that are just as well armed, 15-25% faster, have much better concealment, ant that can tank just as much damage.  That´s bona fide T11/Supership  material right there.

If you want to be able to push /tank, then the GK (or coming Preussen) are the much better choice if we're sticking with the KM line. Hell, even the Bismarck is tankier than a Schlieffen, and it´s 2 tiers lower and has 20k less health.. but it has bettter armor.  Because it´s a full blown battleship, and not a battlecruiser.

And that´s why Schlieffens constantly die so fast, people play them like a battleship when they should be playing them like a superheavy cruiser.  Hell, most play them similarly to the way people used to play the gneisenau, i.e. as an ultraheavy destroyer.  And then when they find themselves in the middle of a furball getting focused by 5+ Cruisers or BBs, it´s always everyone elses fault for "not supporting them", even though almost everythign heavier than a destroyer coulndßt have kept up even if every sailer on board got out and pushed.

And that´s why when I see a Schlieffen, esp. in my GK or even FdG or Bismarck, I generally see a free lunch, simply because most players will happily exploit their own weaknesses and play her like a frontline battleship, going toe to toe with myself and other actual battleships, thereby allowing my team to simply frag her turrets and move on to someone that actually poses a threat.  

But when you do find that 1 player out of a hundred or possibly thousand that understands how to play the Schlieffen (or any KM battleruiser for that matter), then she´s absolutely devastating. ;)

[Yxkraft]

On 2/12/2022 at 12:01 PM, GarrusBrutus said:

Schlieffen is so incredibly OP in ranked, where it is quite easy to create close quarter situations. Idk about randoms, but it is the same as with the Pommern: OP in one gamemode, kinda meh in randoms.

Defenitely doesnt need buffs of any sort, because that would be gamebreaking.

It is already c*ncer to fight against those OP secondaries.

I dont think so, I play ranked in gold, and the way to handle Schlieffen is to kite away from him, because of the limited repair teams and one heal less it is really vulnerable to fire spamming, and if he stupidly turns to let off his torpedoes, you get guaranteed penetrations from his belt armor ( if you are another bb). If you do that, his yolo charge will fail, and he will die quick, and now your team is +1 ship over the enemy team. I still see schlieffens but they are way rarer than they used to be. Also, this ship, being secondary oriented, is very vulnerable to the usual way of handling such ships - small caliber AP and large caliber HE, which both will kill secondaries fast.  Torpedo launchers are also very vulnerable things. Do not forget his 27 mm upper frontal bow, that makes it very difficult for this ship to stand off and bow tank. 

 

So - the captain must understand the limitations of this ship, and the enemies must not understand its limitations, or it will not work that well. This is a common situation in random, but not in high tier ranked. In game modes like brawl, which are over in 4 minutes and require you to charge into the center of the map or lose,  the limitations of german battlecruisers and bbs like the awful Pommern arent that obvious.