CVs road to "clicker" class is almost finished

[Ishiro32]

Hello All, another wall of text incoming. I am sure people who read my earlier topics know what to expect. So let's jump right into it, ok?

 

CVs, What we have righ now.
Patch 0.3.1.4 introduced long lock down drops. What it means is that you have to commit to the drop much earlier giving enemy much more time to perform evading manuver. This also means that slight adjustment to the manual drop are no longer possible.

Patch 0.3.1.2 introduced very wide spread for IJN planes. Making manual spread pretty much the same thing as auto. 
 

Now those two things resulted in IJN skill cap going really down and this is extremly worrying. Really wide spread decreased the damage of top players while making it easier to hit targets with something even by new players. This resulted in very lacking experience in patch 0.3.1.3 which nerfed the turning radius. Since ships were not able to dance and had most of the time exposed broadside, aiming became pretty much redundant.
With the damage buff in that patch my performance was actually better than it was in 0.3.1 when they introduced shokaku. I was getting bored, because of the lack of challange as the only thing which right now matters is direction of approach, you are aiming AT the ship and torps will hit... 100% guarantee and at the same time there is no need to aim as there is no possibility to hit more. The only thing that actually was stresfull was MM, even CV sniping I was not really afraid... top players were playing tier 10, I am not playing a lot so I only met sharana once and he was in my team... anyway I did not met CV player who was able to snipe me, so I was not really scared of that. It was kinda boring patch.

Now let's talk about recent change and it's implication so you understand why I think CVs are pretty much "clicker" class.

Auto Vs Manual on IJN

With last change you can not make small adjustments in the manual drop closer to the ship. Usually those adjustments were extremly minor and were corrections. Thing is that auto has still that feature in tact. Auto is adjusting itself in real time based on the target movement to make pretty ok drop. So what we have is:

1. Wide spread put a hard lock on the accuracy of any IJN drop.

2. Auto still retained autoadjust functionality so the burden of predicting enemy movement is lifted from this type of drop.

 

Now let's add one and two and what we have is... auto is pretty much equall in damage potential to manual drop and is much easier to use. The power struggle between auto and manual depends from tier to tier and I think on top tier manual is still superior as it is a bit more flexible, but... Thing is that in tier VIII game doing only auto drops you will not perform much worse than experienced player with manual drops.

 

Tier to tier learning and difficulty curve - WG lessons how to scare players off.

 

Now let's talk about those tier to tier changes. Let's once again go back to this auto adjusting and manual adjusting, you perform those correction because your inhead calculation were slightly off. The time you have to think ahead is depending on the plane speed as engagment circles are the same in tier IV as they are in tier X. If plane is faster it will perform drop faster and you will not have to look so much into the future.
Now because of this patch I went back to Hosho, CV with slowest TBs and for that matter plane in the game. Those buggers are abysmally slow, as a result whole drop is reaaaaaaly slow. As a result Hosho is very hard to perform perfect manual drop with. Going between Shokaku and Hosho is like going from heaven to hell. Especially when we also add to that fact that low tier BBs are better at turning and are not big targets. I actually gave up and started using auto on Hosho as it was simply more effective way of doing things. Manual drop is very hard and because of hard lock on accuracy there is no benefit to doing it. 
Funny thing is that Hosho has the same torpedos as Shokaku and has the same ammount of planes in the air. Using auto drops I was able to get games with almost 100k damage done.
This whole thing is not felt on the high tier as planes are fast enough that adjusting is not really that needed, especially with this huge wide spread where aiming is not really that important.

 

Conclusion:

Skill celling for CVs collapsed.

Auto drop is sometimes better than manual drop.
On low tiers you pretty much are forced to use auto.
Auto drop shokaku will not have all that different results as good manual drop shokaku. If you are not good with manual you will be much better with auto.

Recent changes did not affect top players in top tier in any meaningful way as planes are too fast and BBs turn too slow.
CVs are on a perfect road to become true "clicer" class and I would argue in current iteration they pretty much are it.

 

Patch 0.3.1.2 made me say that IJN CVs are very frustrating
with Patch 0.3.1.4 I say IJN CVs are boring.

 

I don't see anything that this class has to offer me right now. I see no place to grow. I never met good US fighter CV player. When MM decides that I fight two other CVs which have fighters then I have not much to do. When I am solo then I just fly and damage people without any thought. When I am 1 v 1 against other CV I usually engage him with DBs and then proceed to damage people without any thought... It is boring. I don't even know how I can improve my performance... And now I don't have to do anything more that clicking to do well... CVs are such a exciting class.
 

 

Edit.
After few games in the US CVs I would like to write small addendum.

Differences between nations

Intrestingly enough right now US CVs are in a good state or rather their TBs perform and feel much better after 0.3.1.4. Thing is there were no changes to US spread so the differences between performances of manual drop and auto are still pretty big. There is also healthy situation for manual drop of new player and experienced. US CVs manual drop can put a wide wall of torps so even when new player is using it, he will hit something, while experienced player will put 5/6. 
Even recent change to engagment circle is working correctly in this line. Perfect manual drop is slightly harder and if enemy does a good manuver he might even some damage, but not all. Even the damage to torps buff was in my opinion needed for this line, with currently not working IJN line it might feel a bit unfair though. 19 torps hits from Lexi = 150 k while 19 torps hits from Shokaku = 100k , it really doesn't feel right. 

 

So to sum up.
Most of I wrote is for IJN line. US Line right now is as good as it was in 0.3.0 and I would recommend new players to go for that line.

I still have issues with fighters so recommending that line doesn't feel really right, but the fact is that their TBs just feel better, even if you have less of them and you have more downtime where you don't do anything. 

[HaganeNoKaze]

You did a good summary of what just happened with this patch.

 

I fully agree !

[KurumizawaR]

i agree they really need to work on the CV gameplay, i do still do my manual drops but i can see that auto drop will result in almost the same hit and damage performance - apart from a few situations.

it may be good for new players to use auto reliably more and slowly learn manual as tiers go higher, but there is not really a reward for using manual now, more like a bother^^

 

considering what i wrote in other threads today, US CV torps can do 2 of those 20k dmg and IJN CV torps 3 of those hit for 15k - and you loose alot of planes in higher tiers as IJN while approaching the target (talking about shokaku not t9 and t10)

so US CV can dish out 40k dmg per torp run, if 4 torps hit and 4 planes survive - which almost everytime is the case. US 40k vs IJN 25k -ish with luck from 2 torp squads, not really a reason to play IJN CV anymore if you do not have the t10 one.

one can still hit a DD, if he plays kinda bad, but it still is a huge nerf for IJN CV's that prbly killed most of them until next balance patch comes up.

let's not even start on the air superiority when US has fighters, that is just silly how one fighter squad can kill 4 or 5 IJN squads without reload.

 

for now the planes on the hakuryu on t10 are to fast to effectivly get cought by US fighters, but that will soon change and then even that one is out of the game - if nothing happened balance wise.

jsut now i saw a hakuryu run with all torp bomber do 30k dmg, ALL squads went on one BB, hardly a threat anymore i'd say^^  and he was alone without CA protection or anything.

well we shall see where the CV gameplay goes, atm it really is just boring, so i fully agree with Ishiro32.

[Fominator]

Is like what happened to DDs, but in slow motion ("national peculiarities" + huge torpedo nerfs). And so the cycle of nerfs continues.

[indycar]

hmm i agree with most part but why you only mention ijn cvs. i tested us cvs in alpha and have come back to cvs again and i think getting good hits is harder because some of the targets actually try to dodge instead just sail

in a ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Takeda92]

National pecularities is something so hard to balance I don't know why WG decided to make it this black and white only to ruin it patch after patch. I guess they can't handle balancibg of such caliber.

[Calapine]

Very good assement.

 

I had that fear already with the torpedo spread nerf. Considering a CV mostly drives on autopilot with routes, that DB/Fighters are brainless to use and now TB are becoming the same and that there are only 4-5 attacking waves really in a 20 minute match, there is just not much "game" for a CV player to play.

 

I don't see a IJN CV still offering anything that keeps the player interested for a longer time

 

Cala

[Vulgarny]

Just to show how hard was that torp dmg nerf.

 

Before patch:

 

 

After patch:

 

 

 

[TomBombardil]

I absolutly agree.

The Risk (bad aim) /Reward(less counter play) of manual droping just went down the drain.

 

I Even eleborated why cartain changes where bad in my article( http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/15815-make-cv-playable-again/). And than again this nerf, that indeed decreses the skill cap (as you say, manualy vs Auto). While it slightly increases the counter play of well playing "targets", it still does nothing agains bad playing targtets. Plus it makes manual droping only look more like auto, with for manual aiming the added diffuclt of predicteing the lead with almost no extra reward.

[Flavio1997]

"Patch 0.3.1.2 made me say that IJN CVs are very frustrating
with Patch 0.3.1.4 I say IJN CVs are boring."

That's the  point, today  I didn't  manage  to do neither 100k of damage in my shukako in 6 battles, I ended a battle where I was the only cv with 6 tops hit and 11 bombs hit and no plane left because the enemies  had half brain .

And more important THEY MADE IN FEW MICRO-PATCHES THE CV FROM BEING THE MOST SKILLED-BASED UNITS TO THE LESS. Right now is just point and click with autoimmune,  there is no difference...They manage to create the arty of wot from the best class of the game, so that when the game will go in obt everyone will call the CV player "clickers"...

 

[Broevaharo]

Very good assement.

 

I had that fear already with the torpedo spread nerf. Considering a CV mostly drives on autopilot with routes, that DB/Fighters are brainless to use and now TB are becoming the same and that there are only 4-5 attacking waves really in a 20 minute match, there is just not much "game" for a CV player to play.

 

I don't see a IJN CV still offering anything that keeps the player interested for a longer time

 

Cala

 

Just had a game to test auto aim versus manual drop and it really hardly makes any difference anymore, I actually think auto is better now because you can make minor adjustments until the last minute where you can't with manual.

[Ishiro32]

National pecularities is something so hard to balance I don't know why WG decided to make it this black and white only to euin it patch after patch. I guess they can't handle balancibg of such caliber.

 

They are still struggling with the basic gameplay which recent changes to TBs clearly show. There is still a lot to do until we can really think about soft balance.

 

for example recent damage nerfs. Look at what Vulgar copied. The nerf on torps was really strong. I have put in recent game 20 torps into ships and did more or less 100k hp. This doesn't really feel good, but it is soft balance so it can easily change.

 

I know I am derailing my own topic, but since I am talking about adjusting, maybe you will find this bug as enjoyable as I find it. And thanks to all your positive feedback I decided to record it in co-op and report it, since I knew about it from I think 0.3.1.2, basically from where they resolved problem of unresposive adjusting. You get one free adjustment after drop is locked, there is magical timefrime that let's you do that.

[Takeda92]

 

Just had a game to test auto aim versus manual drop and it really hardly makes any difference anymore, I actually think auto is better now because you can make minor adjustments until the last minute where you can't with manual.

 

Auto is bugged. Sometimes the planes decide to go to a complete different direction of where I told them to go. 

One time they dropped 90 degrees, instead of firing to a broadside of a BB, they fired at it directly from the front.

[koivis]

Agree with OP 100%

 

I think the biggest problem with carriers is that they are too random and non-skill based (torpedo spread, lock down), useless (fighter loadouts vs no carriers, low tier vs hightier), or just generally underpowered (some IJN carriers). While they can still be broken in some cases (US fighters vs jap bomber loadouts, 5xTB squadrons...). It really seems that there's no midway.

 

PS. Pun intended ;)

[Enkidu69]

To be honest auto drop needed a buff. It was just too pathetic. But with the nerf to manual there really is no point to use manual drop anymore. They overdid it.

 

And USN CV's are so ridiculously superior now it's simply crazy. Two times better fighter. Two times better dive bombers. Significantly better torpedo bombers. Much better AA. 

 

Why would anyone even play IJN anymore?

[Deckeru_Maiku]

I don't see anything that this class has to offer me right now. I see no place to grow. I never met good US fighter CV player. When MM decides that I fight two other CVs which have fighters then I have not much to do. When I am solo then I just fly and damage people without any thought. When I am 1 v 1 against other CV I usually engage him with DBs and then proceed to damage people without any thought... It is boring. I don't even know how I can improve my performance... And now I don't have to do anything more that clicking to do well... CVs are such a exciting class.

 

 

Wow... I'm glad that I'm not that good myself.

I can follow Your argumentation, though, and as it is now, clicking and auto attack is the way to go for many CV players. Not sure if I should be bothered by that, 'cause it's probably more of a problem for WG than for me.

 

In the end it depends on the players WG wants to attract.

If they want to balance the game around mediocre players, they have to make it easy enough for them to be - at least sometimes - successfull. And being slaughtered by players that are way of the scale is no fun for anybody.

 

[Fominator]

Why would anyone even play IJN anymore?

 

Masochists, kancolle fans + other unsorted weebs and maybe collectors/completionists who wants all the tier X.

[DtXpwnz]

Road to World of Battleships almost finished - fixed.

 

Can someone take a screenshot / post a video of how they changed the TB manual drop? I didnt have time to get into game since the patch. already tested it...

 

WG has really learned nothing? Hidden ninja changes, uncomplete patchnotes and so on. Their ability to communicate with player base is even more pathethic than it is for WoT. There is really no excuse anymore.

[Takeda92]

 

Masochists, kancolle fans + other unsorted weebs and maybe collectors/completionists who wants all the tier X.

 

Well, anyone with a sense of beauty and looking for a challenge after getting bored of those baby toys US ships too

[Unintentional_submarine]

 

Wow... I'm glad that I'm not that good myself.

I can follow Your argumentation, though, and as it is now, clicking and auto attack is the way to go for many CV players. Not sure if I should be bothered by that, 'cause it's probably more of a problem for WG than for me.

 

In the end it depends on the players WG wants to attract.

If they want to balance the game around mediocre players, they have to make it easy enough for them to be - at least sometimes - successfull. And being slaughtered by players that are way of the scale is no fun for anybody.

 

 

Well, technically speaking they didn't make it easier for the bad CV captains, since the drop nerf hit the lowest tiers the hardest. Remember, auto also drops further out.

 

Amusingly their argument for the wide spread was that the best did to well and the worst did too poorly. Thus they wanted to lessen the numbers of torps hit by perfect drop and let the less than optimal drops hit now and then. Well that worked I suppose. Then comes this that clearly hurts the least capable skippers the most. And is the most likely to drive new CV skippers away.

[Spellfire40]

 

Upside of the autotrops now we can hit DDs relyable with Torps. Not that this was needed balance wise. Overall a very bad patch for CV Drivers.

 

cu

 

Spellfire40

[KurumizawaR]

i actually managed to hit DD reliable before that, never used auto though^^

now it got a little harder but still okayish

the dmg nerf on IJN is kinda uncalled for but oh well

 

not related gif, or maybe as IJN CV captains are masochists now

 

[edited]

 

[Ascender]

Infinitely agreed but it seems to be going to deaf ears. Every patch they ruin CVs a little more and everytime there is a considerable 'backlash' from those who are actually playing those CVs affected while everyone who seems to play pretty much every class of ship EXCEPT CVs are the ones pushing for these changes.

 

It really makes me wonder just what they did with carriers in supertest, alpha, etc. Why there have to be such gigantic and fundamental changes in the closed beta (and a rather progressed stage of closed beta at that). I just don't understand it, but then again with the kind of changes they're making I guess there isn't much to understand.... sold Ranger & Shokaku until CVs get better again, just to save myself the pain of being tempted to click the battle button or doing so accidentally.

[Zaods]

 

It really makes me wonder just what they did with carriers in supertest, alpha, etc. Why there have to be such gigantic and fundamental changes in the closed beta (and a rather progressed stage of closed beta at that). I just don't understand it, but then again with the kind of changes they're making I guess there isn't much to understand.... sold Ranger & Shokaku until CVs get better again, just to save myself the pain of being tempted to click the battle button or doing so accidentally.

 

it's simple with the possibility to buy into the closed beta there has been a whole new wave of people who don't know that they have a rudder and spam "torps are OP threads" after not even 50 matches in the game that's why

[Trados]

lol lets be honest gameplay wise if you wanna do good in a battle there is no reason whatsoever to play IJN CV now

and yes only reason i have IJN CV is because I play Kancolle

i mean you know whats sad? by the time WoWs was going into alpha i said "damn first ship i wanna grind for in WoWs is Akagi" then by some luck i got into beta and ofc started playing other ships but when i heard IJN CV are coming i was like SUPER happy then......

fighters totally useless

BB become retarded...toyko BB drift

nerf

nerf

nerf

buff USA CV

nerf

nerf

buff USA CV