When the hell are WG going to sort out the farce that is current CO-OP?

[Axilian_1]

As per topic

 

CO-OP is now just an absolute joke and it's not as if the various imbecilic  'improvements' that the obviously brainless game balance (and I include their brain-dead QA)  minions at WG have made hasn't been brought up on multiple occasions in both this forum , on discord and during the various WG live streams.

 

It's now nearly impossible to have a reasonable match in a slow BB due to the ridiculous AI  that we now have and quite frankly ridiculous decisions like the Mercy Rule which means  that the slower BBs aren't even get within firing range sometimes before the match is terminated when they are stuck out on the flank (when did you ever see that happen in Naval warfare (clue:  not a lot due to capital ship costs etc)

 

In what reality  for example aren't DDs punished  for just  rushing happily into point blank range of a least 2 enemy ships without cover  . Sorry  when you do that in any game with any intelligence you would target the immediate threat (the DD) rather than what we have now (where the BOTs just either carry on in a straight line whilst firing are ships that rare barely in range and  hence not any where near the same threat).

 

CO-OP now is just utterly depressing to play as it's so messed up with regards Game Design and balance that my 3 year niece could have done a better job (in fact a dolly tea party is probably a better game design )

 

 

It just  seems that CO-OP is now just a mode to 'test out' (read shoehorn in under the carpet) half baked ideas that WG  think they can smuggling in via this mode (subs and superships )

 

 

[WorthyOpponent]

If just going forward and rushing works...

Then just...

Go forward and rush.

Bots get spotted from the moon and they can't hit much anyway, shouldn't be hard.

As far as I know WG tried improved AI, which didn't get positive feedback. People play co-op to relax, to finish missions or to try stuff. If you want a real challenge Randoms are the way to go.

[neorvo]

4 minutes ago, Axilian_1 said:

As per topic

 

CO-OP is now just an absolute joke and it's not as if the various imbecilic  'improvements' that the obviously brainless game balance (and I include their brain-dead QA)  minions at WG have made hasn't been brought up on multiple occasions in both this forum , on discord and during the various WG live streams.

 

It's now nearly impossible to have a reasonable match in a slow BB due to the ridiculous AI  that we now have and quite frankly ridiculous decisions like the Mercy Rule which means  that the slower BBs aren't even get within firing range sometimes before the match is terminated when they are stuck out on the flank (when did you ever see that happen in Naval warfare (clue:  not a lot due to capital ship costs etc)

 

In what reality  for example aren't DDs punished  for just  rushing happily into point blank range of a least 2 enemy ships without cover  . Sorry  when you do that in any game with any intelligence you would target the immediate threat (the DD) rather than what we have now (where the BOTs just either carry on in a straight line whilst firing are ships that rare barely in range and  hence not any where near the same threat).

 

CO-OP now is just utterly depressing to play as it's so messed up with regards Game Design and balance that my 3 year niece could have done a better job (in fact a dolly tea party is probably a better game design )

 

 

It just  seems that CO-OP is now just a mode to 'test out' (read shoehorn in under the carpet) half baked ideas that WG  think they can smuggling in via this mode (subs and superships )

 

 

In other stream I comment this

 

 

The co-ops must be reviewed.

[neorvo]

4 minutes ago, WorthyOpponent said:

If just going forward and rushing works...

Then just...

Go forward and rush.

Bots get spotted from the moon and they can't hit much anyway, shouldn't be hard.

As far as I know WG tried improved AI, which didn't get positive feedback. People play co-op to relax, to finish missions or to try stuff. If you want a real challenge Randoms are the way to go.

But then becomes boring when you try to switch to randoms, where almost all co-ops training is worthless. I was thinking that the "Arms Race" playing option with wider Tier range, at least one for low tier, could be an alternative to playing co-ops as there are now. @Axilian_1 describes exactly what is happening:

 

"....for example aren't DDs punished  for just  rushing happily into point blank range of a least 2 enemy ships without cover  . Sorry  when you do that in any game with any intelligence you would target the immediate threat (the DD) rather than what we have now (where the BOTs just either carry on in a straight line whilst firing are ships that rare barely in range and  hence not any where near the same threat). "

[Axilian_1]

9 minutes ago, WorthyOpponent said:

If just going forward and rushing works...

Then just...

Go forward and rush.

Bots get spotted from the moon and they can't hit much anyway, shouldn't be hard.

As far as I know WG tried improved AI, which didn't get positive feedback. People play co-op to relax, to finish missions or to try stuff. If you want a real challenge Randoms are the way to go.

And that there is one of the problems as now  the only ship you really do relax in playing co-op in the current state is DDs as teh rest tend to just be frustrating 

 

(It says clearly there's something wrong when you get an inactivity warning and all score removed because you're playing a slow BB (e.g. New York)  and are spawned so far out on the flank that even at top speed you can't get in range before the match finishes with the mercy rule

[WorthyOpponent]

1 minute ago, neorvo said:

But then becomes boring when you try to switch to randoms, where almost all co-ops training is worthless. I was thinking that the "Arms Race" playing option with wider Tier range, at least one for low tier, could be an alternative to playing co-ops as there are now.

Co-op is not a place for training, I don't think it ever was. Real people who punish your mistakes and make mistakes you can take advantage of are always going to be a much better training ground than anything artificial. 

[GarrusBrutus]

9 minutes ago, Axilian_1 said:

And that there is one of the problems as now  the only ship you really do relax in playing co-op in the current state is DDs as teh rest tend to just be frustrating 

 

(It says clearly there's something wrong when you get an inactivity warning and all score removed because you're playing a slow BB (e.g. New York)  and are spawned so far out on the flank that even at top speed you can't get in range before the match finishes with the mercy rule

Then maybe play another ship? Some ships are not suited for certain gamemodes. Or atleast suboptimal.

[WorthyOpponent]

2 minutes ago, Axilian_1 said:

And that there is one of the problems as now  the only ship you really do relax in playing co-op in the current state is DDs as teh rest tend to just be frustrating 

 

(It says clearly there's something wrong when you get an inactivity warning and all score removed because you're playing a slow BB (e.g. New York)  and are spawned so far out on the flank that even at top speed you can't get in range before the match finishes with the mercy rule

At lower tiers the maps are small, so speed really shouldn't be a problem there. New York specially has a relatively long range on its tier. I doubt you can get inactivity warning. Just press W 4 times, nothing else, wait for enemy to show up and pew pew at them. Especially the enemy BBs. 

[Aethervoxx]

Take a ticket number , OP. There's a long line-up  at the 'Farce Counter' & it's getting longer all the time. No matter the 'farce'  in question,   Wedgie  just adds more 'farces' . It's what they do .

[SodaBubbles]

3 hours ago, WorthyOpponent said:

Co-op is not a place for training, I don't think it ever was. Real people who punish your mistakes and make mistakes you can take advantage of are always going to be a much better training ground than anything artificial. 

It used to be a lot more punishing. The bots would cit you from any angle, and at the higher tiers could be a challenge. Because of the challenge, it was fun.

Now the bots drive around aimlessly, fast ships with good torpedoes do most of the damage, and slow BBs get almost nothing. It's why I havent reset any BB line. If I am grinding in coop, something like German cruisers with good torps and guns is far more useful to play. 

 

The devs claim they addressed the problem of ships getting stuck on islands. In fact its much worse now. 

Lost in the hu-ha over subs has been the decline of coop. My coop record is 337K in a Minnesota. That is probably impossible with the current set of bots. 

[WorthyOpponent]

41 minutes ago, SodaBubbles said:

It used to be a lot more punishing. The bots would cit you from any angle, and at the higher tiers could be a challenge. Because of the challenge, it was fun.

Now the bots drive around aimlessly, fast ships with good torpedoes do most of the damage, and slow BBs get almost nothing. It's why I havent reset any BB line. If I am grinding in coop, something like German cruisers with good torps and guns is far more useful to play. 

 

The devs claim they addressed the problem of ships getting stuck on islands. In fact its much worse now. 

Lost in the hu-ha over subs has been the decline of coop. My coop record is 337K in a Minnesota. That is probably impossible with the current set of bots. 

Except there hasn't been any major AI changes to bots since Minnesota was released and you just countered your own argument, as it shows you can still have a damage record on a very slow BB in coop with the current set of bots. 

[SolanumTuberosumRex]

4 hours ago, WorthyOpponent said:

If just going forward and rushing works...

Then just...

Go forward and rush.

Bots get spotted from the moon and they can't hit much anyway, shouldn't be hard.

As far as I know WG tried improved AI, which didn't get positive feedback. People play co-op to relax, to finish missions or to try stuff. If you want a real challenge Randoms are the way to go.

There is no rushing in a BB. OP makes a good point there, it is difficult to get stuck in with a BB because faster botes have cleaned up already.

[WorthyOpponent]

1 minute ago, PsychoClownfish said:

There is no rushing in a BB. OP makes a good point there, it is difficult to get stuck in with a BB because faster botes have cleaned up already.

They claim they are getting 0 damage and inactivity warnings because other ships clear the enemy faster. Which is just kinda ridiculous. All you need to do is get something in range and shoot it. Contrary to popular belief, you have a long time before a DD can get in point blank range and torp a BB. Just drive straight forward. 
Of course no one will be able to kill enemies as fast as a DD, there's no denying there, neither a way to change that. But battleships have vastly superior ranges and they have all the vision of the enemy. 

[SodaBubbles]

21 minutes ago, WorthyOpponent said:

Except there hasn't been any major AI changes to bots since Minnesota was released and you just countered your own argument, as it shows you can still have a damage record on a very slow BB in coop with the current set of bots. 

Yes there have been. A couple of patches ago, they changed the gun fire and the movement scripts. Now coop is trash. You can drive right up to several bots in a DD or cruiser and they dont hit you until you're at point blank range. Completely different world there since when Minnesota was released.

[WorthyOpponent]

Just now, SodaBubbles said:

Yes there have been. A couple of patches ago, they changed the gun fire and the movement scripts. Now coop is trash. You can drive right up to several bots in a DD or cruiser and they dont hit you until you're at point blank range. Completely different world there since when Minnesota was released.

Just checked the wiki history to be sure. Submarines and airstrikes were added, submarines were improved and bots were modified to not bump into islands, which doesn't change much as they just continue forward unless they have to dodge torps anyway. They also can change their speed while torpbeating now, no other documented change. It doesn't feel like they changed it either. The bots used to miss the first few shots(depending on their ship type) then aim accurately, they still do that. They used to rush forward and they still do that too. 

[SodaBubbles]

10 minutes ago, WorthyOpponent said:

Just checked the wiki history to be sure. Submarines and airstrikes were added, submarines were improved and bots were modified to not bump into islands, which doesn't change much as they just continue forward unless they have to dodge torps anyway. They also can change their speed while torpbeating now, no other documented change. It doesn't feel like they changed it either. The bots used to miss the first few shots(depending on their ship type) then aim accurately, they still do that. They used to rush forward and they still do that too. 

 

They are COMPLETELY different. I have about 20,000 games in coop on three servers. Their firing scripts are totally different. They used to miss a couple of salvos, now they miss most of them until you are close. In the high tiers they could easily cit you, and cit you ruthlessly up close. Now they are less able to cit you -- when i was grinding Heinrich I had real problems testing the armor because I couldn't get bots to cit, me, they would simply fire off to one side.
 

It's very obvious to everyone, and there have been many complaints. They hit islands and stop far more now.

[mdjmcnally]

Well knocked snowflakes off

 

colorado

texas

oklahoma

west Virginia 

 

all made money in co-op and not aware that any of them are anything but slow battleships.   Played tonight.

[Lord0]

It is a bit of a shambles just now. Slow ships have no chance. Fast, torp equipped boats are a must

[MadBadDave]

Co ops is where good players go to grind out directives and to have mind less fun, just put your foot down and kill everything , until WG’s save the bot mercy rule kicks in.

[Psychological_Warfare]

Coop wasn't and never will be a challenge.

Yes, if the whole team is yolo-inting or you have only bots in your team too, you might loose from time to time, but the Coop mode has never been anything else beside a mode to look at your ship and grind missions if you are too stressed for random battles.

I do play a quite amount of Coop matches for missions and relaxing and yes, the bot have been "stronger" in the past, but you talk like Coop has ever been meaningful in any way - and thats not right.

[Onsterfelijke]

I think years ago they made the AI very good but it got reversed because players were complaining about it. Players were owned by Bots.....

 

At the moment they made them slightly beter as then try to evade torps if possible. Firing they miss the first wave but it get beter as they keep firing they selden miss after that. They target low health ships i was even sniped by a yamato from the otherside of the map when i was around 1k hitpoinst. This happens when there are not much DD in game 1 or less.

 

So the solution is to ban the DD from Coop ...... Ooh wait maybe 1 on each side max will improve the Coop greatly!

[Alishia99]

11 hours ago, SodaBubbles said:

It used to be a lot more punishing. The bots would cit you from any angle, and at the higher tiers could be a challenge. Because of the challenge, it was fun.

Now the bots drive around aimlessly, fast ships with good torpedoes do most of the damage, and slow BBs get almost nothing. It's why I havent reset any BB line. If I am grinding in coop, something like German cruisers with good torps and guns is far more useful to play. 

 

The devs claim they addressed the problem of ships getting stuck on islands. In fact its much worse now. 

Lost in the hu-ha over subs has been the decline of coop. My coop record is 337K in a Minnesota. That is probably impossible with the current set of bots. 

They only said they addressed the problems, they never said they were going to make it better.

[SodaBubbles]

12 hours ago, WorthyOpponent said:

Except there hasn't been any major AI changes to bots since Minnesota was released and you just countered your own argument, as it shows you can still have a damage record on a very slow BB in coop with the current set of bots. 

 

That record was set long ago when the ship came out. The changes came after. 

[WorthyOpponent]

1 hour ago, SodaBubbles said:

 

That record was set long ago when the ship came out. The changes came after. 

That was like just last year in the pandemic. Not that long. I just can't argue with "Trust me bro there were undocumented changes in the last year or so even if I can't even point out exactly when it happened it definitely happened"

[Axilian_1]

Last official (documented) BOT AI update was done in 10.6 - done for two main reasons -  prior to introduction of SUBs and geography/geometry changes and introduction of Air strikes

 

As taken from WG's own notes

''Updated the AI of bots

• They can now adjust their speed to avoid torpedoes.
• Reduced the likelihood of bots colliding with islands in Training and Co-op battles, as well as in Operations.
• In Co-op battles, bots will try to change their course if there's a risk of colliding with other ships, rather than lower their speed or move astern.

This change will result in more realistic behaviour for bots.''

 

 

 

Unfortunately not only did they fail miserably in the three points  they listed as I think pretty much anyone who is a regular in CO-OP will agree with but they also appear to have have screwed up AI aiming  as well as it appears target prioritisation 

 

It now appears BOTs only appear to adjust speed to avoid torps if they are still targeted by the torp launcher.  They also have a much higher collision rate with each other and islands.

 

I had a look back at several CO-OP replays I have stored - Prior to 10.6 the BOTs tended to have say one or two ranging salvoes but then were generally fairly accurate with their aim  (and way more than the current situation ). Also they tended to select their target more based on risk to their own ship - or vulnerably of target ship than now (now it's just seems to BOT initially  sees a ship and just continues to fire at that ship even if it isn't interacting).

These changes appear to have led  to a dumber game and consequentially to the whole speeding up to the CO-OP game play (and the clear biasing toward faster ships performing ) as the BOT AI now are even more limited in delaying their demise than before. 

 

My Suspicion that the introduction of SUBs and also the new attack mode of Airstrikes and AI 'improvement' has fundamentally messed up some other aspect of the (fairly mediocre to begin with )  BOT AI and cause the utter clusterf**k that we see now in CO-OP