Playing it too safe is not good.

[The_Angry_Admiral]

Every match I'm in where the team is trying to play it too safe almost always ends up being the opposite. The moment we have control I already see BB's turning for those bottom corners but when you are against a really aggressive enemy those BB's have usually already been damaged by the time they get into their perfect position and the rest of the team is overrun. I'm also seeing this a lot with cruisers who are supposed to be utilising their radars and hydros but think instead to get far away and try and pummel the enemy using their quicker reload. Is this a hold over from the Dead Eye skill days? When this all happens I see DD's start to pull back as well because they know there is no cover for them so the team just ends up falling apart straight away. I'm not asking for BB's and cruisers to just yolo straight in but wasting time find that nice safe spot just ends up killing the team and I think certain players are starting to catch on because I'm seeing much more aggression style of play winning. 

[arttuperkunas]

In my opinion, there is a progression to player skill in this game:

 

a. n00bs/incorrigably bad: yolo/throw their ship away by making aggressive plays without map awareness or understanding of game mechanics -> this looks like aggression

b. learning the ropes: having learned that yoloing is bad, these players play too conservatively, trying to preserve their ship without exerting any map control -> this looks passivity

c. old hands: will play aggressively when the situation calls for it, i.e. they will kite and preserve hp if they are on the weak flank, but play aggressively if it's safe to do so/there is some advantage to be gained -> this looks like aggression

 

Even though a. and c. above look similar, they are not. This is why I don't find words like "play aggressively" very useful, because it can mean either n00b yoloing, or actual calculated plays. Generally speaking, the former outnumber the latter by a considerable margin. You see people throwing their ships away at the wrong time, in the wrong place, to no effect in practically every single match. Whereas you see well played aggressive pushes fairly rarely.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Im not sure how you've been progressing through the game but could it be you are currently getting into higher tier games more frequent? The higher tier you go, the more precautious players tend to be. It has kinda always been like that especially at tier X.

[AkerJack]

I agree wit you..playing always too safe is not good but sometimes attacking with no strategy is a suicide. The issue is find the balance and adapt to the battle dynamics that might change rapidly. 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

2 minutes ago, AkerJack said:

I agree wit you..playing always too safe is not good but sometimes attacking with no strategy is a suicide. The issue is find the balance and adapt to the battle dynamics that might change rapidly. 

What I've been seeing is the team that plays aggressive plays it together and they just overwhelm us. Basically they catch everyone with our trousers down while our team and trying to look for those perfect spots to sit in. 

[arttuperkunas]

1 minute ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

What I've been seeing is the team that plays aggressive plays it together and they just overwhelm us. Basically they catch everyone with our trousers down while our team and trying to look for those perfect spots to sit in. 

Is that aggressively playing team often/sometimes spearheaded by a division playing together?

[The_Angry_Admiral]

20 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

In my opinion, there is a progression to player skill in this game:

 

a. n00bs/incorrigably bad: yolo/throw their ship away by making aggressive plays without map awareness or understanding of game mechanics -> this looks like aggression

b. learning the ropes: having learned that yoloing is bad, these players play too conservatively, trying to preserve their ship without exerting any map control -> this looks passivity

c. old hands: will play aggressively when the situation calls for it, i.e. they will kite and preserve hp if they are on the weak flank, but play aggressively if it's safe to do so/there is some advantage to be gained -> this looks like aggression

 

Even though a. and c. above look similar, they are not. This is why I don't find words like "play aggressively" very useful, because it can mean either n00b yoloing, or actual calculated plays. Generally speaking, the former outnumber the latter by a considerable margin. You see people throwing their ships away at the wrong time, in the wrong place, to no effect in practically every single match. Whereas you see well played aggressive pushes fairly rarely.

I know the difference between yoloing and team based aggressive play. Cruisers are popping their utilities as soon as they are with in range, BB's are moving forward and taking up positions with in range and the DD's are out hunting. Basically it's teamwork and it's winning the games. 

[Ze_Reckless]

How does this even affect you, mister I don't need fire prevention on my JB B because I have range?

[The_Angry_Admiral]

5 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Is that aggressively playing team often/sometimes spearheaded by a division playing together?

Sometimes it is but I think it's players who have copped on and are changing tactic. I know in games like WoT Blitz and WoT PC on certain maps there is a comfortable strategy that is always used to the point where it becomes predictable. I think that's what's happening now and it's catching people out. 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

Just now, Ze_Reckless said:

How does this even affect you, mister I don't need fire prevention on my JB B because I have range?

What does that have to do with the current topic?

[AkerJack]

3 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

What I've been seeing is the team that plays aggressive plays it together and they just overwhelm us. Basically they catch everyone with our trousers down while our team and trying to look for those perfect spots to sit in. 

That's the only way to play extremely aggressive...that the entire team support each other. 

Otherwise is better being in between aggressive and cautious...

[The_Angry_Admiral]

1 minute ago, AkerJack said:

That's the only way to play extremely aggressive...that the entire team support each other. 

Otherwise is better being in between aggressive and cautious...

Oh I agree 100%.

 

[arttuperkunas]

1 minute ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Sometimes it is but I think it's players who have copped on and are changing tactic. I know in games like WoT Blitz and WoT PC on certain maps there is a comfortable strategy that is always used tot he point where it becomes predictable. I think that's what's happening now and it's catching people out. 

Well. Usually there is a stronger flank, and a weaker flank. The team where the weak flank kites/survives and the strong flank pushes sensibly has a good chance of winning the game (slightly depending on map and team composition thought; a smolensk/kita/friesland can make pushing in open water inadvisable).

 

So in broad terms yes, it is a good tactic, so long as enough people follow through (which is why I mentioned the division, as it provides a strong nucleus for a push).

[arttuperkunas]

To add to that: strong divisions will usually play aggressively, especially when top tier. However, the reason for that is more strategic than tactical. In other words, we're afraid that our team will throw the game before we can kill enough enemy ships, so we play faster/more aggressively than might be 100% tactically advisable. Especially on weekends :P.

[Itwastuesday]

Pushing is difficult, risky and dependent on your team helping you. Every new release since... I started playing has been anti-pushing ships. 

 

Kiting away is easy, safe and all you need to pay attention to is enemy shots and broadsides. 

[Captain_Breeze]

It's not always that simple.

 

Aggressive teams can loose as often as passive teams. I find it tends to be down to the team with more better players. But good players have bad games too, so there is no hard and fast rule.

[MrWastee]

at this pace ur post count will exceed ur match count appr....... tomorrow?! ^^

[Captain_Breeze]

2 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

at this pace ur post count will exceed ur match count appr....... tomorrow?! ^^

I reckon he wants to catch up with @ColonelPete  

[Nibenay78]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Every match I'm in where the team is trying to play it too safe almost always ends up being the opposite. The moment we have control I already see BB's turning for those bottom corners but when you are against a really aggressive enemy those BB's have usually already been damaged by the time they get into their perfect position and the rest of the team is overrun. I'm also seeing this a lot with cruisers who are supposed to be utilising their radars and hydros but think instead to get far away and try and pummel the enemy using their quicker reload. Is this a hold over from the Dead Eye skill days? When this all happens I see DD's start to pull back as well because they know there is no cover for them so the team just ends up falling apart straight away. I'm not asking for BB's and cruisers to just yolo straight in but wasting time find that nice safe spot just ends up killing the team and I think certain players are starting to catch on because I'm seeing much more aggression style of play winning. 

 

You are not aware that a BB that passes one of the four corners gains 1000 doubloons? 

 

The rest goes directly to jail. Do not pass Go.

[bobtherterrible]

2 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Every match I'm in where the team is trying to play it too safe almost always ends up being the opposite. The moment we have control I already see BB's turning for those bottom corners 

Just because a BB is pointing away doesn't mean the guns are not aimed at the enemy. Don't forget these ships have turrets unlike ships of the line.

So if you're one one of those players who starts furiously clicking the map when they see a BB doing this, please go and look up things like

• angling
• the range of torpedoes
• the range of HE spamming cruisers

It's pretty standard pattern - run in, turn away to the corner, that way you're angled against both the flank you're on and the opposite flank while still using those swivelly guns to shoot at the enemy, have forward speed and can therefore manouvre a bit, and don't get so close that you are immediately overwhelmed by the enemy's fire starting fire.

 

 

Which is nice

 

The tricky bit is knowing when to turn back in and not get blapped in the process

[Sir_Sinksalot]

Well, I can't blame anyone for taking a conservative approach to higher tier battles, especially in the early moments since well, the general theme seems to be "First spotted is first shot" but that's the case at any tier really, only at higher tiers the ships have the accuracy to land their shots more reliably so it's gonna hurt... a lot! Plus you get a lot of higher tier battles where CV's, DD's, subs and radar can quickly turn any frontline effort into a quick retreat.

 

This can sometimes translate into a fast win or loss however, as one team quickly runs up that 900 or 1000 requirement with all 3 sectors capped and a couple of your teams DD's destroyed which also leaves your team blind, their team with a great set of eyes, all of which snowballs into the team with dead DD's getting farmed and retreating at an alarming rate. Sadly a lot of battles are decided by which teams DD's survive the initial sector dispute, especially if there's no CV backup ironically(I say "ironically" in regards most players hate CV's yet in those moments would love a CV for a teammate for spotting duties your dead DD's can no longer provide!)

[Karasu_Browarszky]

2 hours ago, Captain_Breeze said:

It's not always that simple.

 

Aggressive teams can loose as often as passive teams. I find it tends to be down to the team with more better players. But good players have bad games too, so there is no hard and fast rule.

 

Aggressive players can lose which will lead to the team losing. Aggressive teams that engage in team play are much more powerful, though they can still be defeated, as long as the team that has to go on the defense can counter the aggression fast enough. You are right about good players, as all things being equal, the team with the better players invariably wins (not always, however). The issue here, however, is that it only takes a couple of better players to make the difference (especially when they play in a division). I think it's somewhat problematic that the meta favors skilled individuals over skilled teams.

[Captain_Breeze]

2 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

I think it's somewhat problematic that the meta favors skilled individuals over skilled teams.

Well, to me, that's down to how bad or how many bad players you have in your team. But to be honest, I can't actually say that skilled individuals hold more sway than skilled teams or divs.

There are too many variables to adequately say one thing or the other. Some matches can be easier to point to why it was won/lost. But many more are down to lots of different reasons.

 

This would never be easy to sort with MM. I mean, can you imagine the algorithm required to do so. Which would inevitably extend the waiting time to join a game.

 

MM is imperfect, but there ain't much perfection out there in this world. 

[Procrastes]

Knowing when to push and when to retreat is one of the hardest parts to master in the whole game. It's part and parcel of the whole "positioning" thing, which is perhaps the most crucial skill of all - much more important, for instance, than being good at gunnery. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it doesn't help how good a gunner you might be because there's nothing relevant to shoot at. Whereas on the other hand, if you have managed to put yourself in a good spot, merely being there - and influencing enemy behaviour - will go a long way towards victory even if you can't land those Flamu© six-citadels-per-salvo hits every time you press the trigger.

 

That said, an active playstyle is always better than a passive one - and a thousand times more fun. As I have been fond of saying, damage to your ship does not carry over into the real world. This should be an obvious truth to everyone, and yet I keep seeing players who rabbit for the border the moment enemy fire starts coming their way. I have played this game since Beta, and yet this mindset never ceases to puzzle me. Why play this game if you can't stand being shot at? Why run so hard just for the privilege of being the last to sink?

 

In the immortal words of Captain John Paul Jones: "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way."

 

[Altsak]

4 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Is this a hold over from the Dead Eye skill days?

 

No. It's a natural occurence when people transition from 46% WR to 55% WR.