Two supercruiser lines proposals

[totally_potato]

I previously did American BCs in this forum, and ig it was well received. The line has some issues and I'll fix it whenever I get time. For now here, are two supercruiser lines to present. 

We have a fair few supercruisers in game, and they are of the concept of "Big gun cruisers", giving cruiser like armor protection, sometimes a bit more towards BB levels and guns, that are quite big for a cruiser, and small for a BB. Kind of like mobile BBs. So here I am to propose two supercruisers lines, one of my own making, and one of a discord mate Mitsuha's making.

 

Let's show the latter first

American SCs

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OgK3HPAW5ir5dOr2xucdeV_JYLA5qWB0oC5qk5TiH0Q/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

And this is of my making

 

German SCs:-

 

Concept

 

• Quite tanky, with increased plating compared to other cruisers and a large HP pool

• Guns utilise cruiser dispersion with lower than average sigma, and the barrel count is low, but retain a rather solid caliber and decent range making them reliable.

• They have rather poor concealment

• Average to very high speeds but poor handling

• First cruiser line with viable secondaries to build into thanks to high range and good accuracy (Massa) but rather low DPM and mediocre fire chance, so it's more of a memey alternative playstyle, the preferred playstyle should still be guns.

• Torpedoes with long range and are similar to researchable German destroyers, but the number is low.

• A new type of Repair Party. It has a short duration and heals upto 7% of ship's total HP, but it has double the number of charges, and reduced cooldown (40 secs)

• German Hydroacoustic Search and DFAA choice in one slot.

 

 

Basis is the evolution of the Panzerschiffe to the eventual BCs designed for Plan Z, built for one purpose - commerce raiding.

 

I hope whenever the split happens, (hopefully later, like we got 2 German lines recently back to back xD) the line splits into a light cruiser branch from Nurmberg as the main line, a heavy cruiser line, the ones we have currently, and this new supercruiser line.

 

 

 

T6. Deutschland (That was obvious wasn't it?)

 

The Deutschland class was a series of three Panzerschiffe (armoured ships), a form of the heavily armed cruiser, built by the Reichsmarine officially in accordance with restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. The ships of the class, Deutschland, Admiral Scheer and Admiral Graf Spee, were all stated to displace 10,000 long tons in accordance with the Treaty, though they actually displaced 10,600 to 12,340 long tons. The Kriegsmarine initially classified the ships as "Panzerschiffe" (armored ships), but in February 1940 it reclassified the two survivors of the class as heavy cruisers. Due to their heavy armament of six 28 cm (11 in) guns, high speed and long cruising range, the class was more capable of high seas operation than the old pre-dreadnought battleships they replaced. For this reason, they were referred to as "pocket battleships", particularly in the British press. In 1938 Jane's Fighting Ships stated the Deutschland-class "are officially rated as 'Armoured Ships' (Panzerschiffe) and popularly referred to as 'Pocket Battleships'. Actually, they are equivalent to armoured cruisers of an exceptionally powerful type."

Deutschland saw significant action with the Kriegsmarine, including several non-intervention patrols, during which she was attacked by Republican bombers. At the outbreak of World War II, she was cruising the North Atlantic, prepared to attack Allied merchant traffic. Bad weather hampered her efforts, and she sank or captured only three vessels before returning to Germany, after which she was renamed Lützow. She then participated in Operation Weserübung, the invasion of Norway. In June Lützow steamed to Norway. While en route, she was torpedoed by a British bomber, necessitating significant repairs that lasted until May 1942. She returned to Norway to join the forces arrayed against Allied shipping to the Soviet Union. She ran aground during a planned attack on convoy PQ 17, which necessitated another return to Germany for repairs. She next saw action at the Battle of the Barents Sea with the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper, which ended with a failure to destroy the convoy JW 51B. Engine problems forced a series of repairs culminating in a complete overhaul at the end of 1943, after which the ship remained in the Baltic. Sunk in the Kaiserfahrt in April 1945 by Royal Air Force (RAF) bombers, Lützow was used as a gun battery to support German troops fighting the Soviet Army until 4 May 1945, when she was disabled by her crew. 

 

Stats:-

 

Hit points – 36,800. Plating - 25 mm. Fires duration: 45 s.

 

Main battery - 2x3 283 mm. Firing range - 15.5 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 3,000. HE shell armor penetration - 71 mm. Chance to cause fire – 18%. HE initial velocity - 890 m/s. Maximum AP shell damage - 8,400. AP initial velocity - 910 m/s. Reload time - 20 s. 180 degree turn time - 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 140 m. Sigma – 1.8.

Secondary Armament:

8x1 150.0 mm, 3x2 105.0 mm range  - 5.6 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. HE initial velocity - 875 m/s;                Maximum HE shell damage – 1,200. Chance to cause fire – 5%. HE initial velocity - 900 m/s

 

AA defense: 4x2 37.0 mm, 3x2 105.0 mm, 4x1 20.0mm, 6x1 20.0mm

AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second - 80.5, hit probability - 85 %, action zone - 2.0 km;

AA defense mid-range: continuous damage per second - 24.5, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 3.5 km;

AA defense long-range: continuous damage per second - 77, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 5.2 km;

Number of explosions in a salvo - 3, damage within an explosion - 1260, action zone 3.5 - 5.2 km.

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 13700. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 64 kt. Reload time - 90 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km.

 

Maximum speed - 27.5 kt. Turning circle radius - 670 m. Rudder shift time – 9.1 s. Surface detectability – 12.9 km. Air detectability – 7.2 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke  – 9.6 km.

Available consumables:

Slot 1 - Damage Control Party 

Slot 2 - Repair Party (Duration time 14 s; HP per second 185; Reload time 40 s; Charges 5)

Slot 3 - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire

 

 

 

T7. Schröder (D class stock/P class upgraded)

This ship is based on both the D and P class of designs.

The D-class cruisers were a pair of German cruisers, classified as Panzerschiffe ("armored ships") by the Kriegsmarine (War Navy). The ships were improved versions of the preceding Deutschland-class cruisers, authorized by Adolf Hitler in 1933. They were intended to counter a new French naval construction program. Displacement increased to 20,000 long tons (20,000 t), but Hitler allowed only increases to armor, prohibiting additions to the ships' main battery. Only one of the two ships was laid down, but it was canceled less than five months after the keel was laid. It was determined that the designs should be enlarged to counter the new French Dunkerque-class ships. 

The ships were designed as follow-ons to the Deutschland-class cruisers. 

 

The P class was a planned group of twelve heavy cruisers of Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine; they were the successor to the Deutschland-class cruisers. Design work began in 1937 and continued until 1939; at least twenty designs were submitted with nine of them being considered. There were three designs that were selected as the final contenders. One design was armed with six 283mm main guns in one triple turret forward and one more turret aft. It had two 150mm double secondary gun turrets as secondary armament with one being positioned above and just fore of the aft of the main 283mm main turret, and the other being in front and lower of the front main gun turret. This design had more beam than the other 2 designs. It also mounted 2 seaplanes on its fantail instead of the mid-ship area. The final design was armed with six 28 cm (11 in) quick-firing guns in two triple turrets, as in the preceding Deutschland class. The ships were designated as Panzerschiff (armored ships), and given the preliminary names P1–P12. They were an improved design over the preceding planned D-class cruisers, which had been canceled in 1934. Although the ships were already assigned to shipyards, construction never began on the P-class ships after the O-class battlecruiser design superseded them. 

D class is the stock hull, P class is upgraded with new torps, addition of 20mm guns, as well as other features like better rudder shift, yada yada

 

 

Stats:-

Hit points – 40,800. Plating - 25 mm. Fires duration: 45 s.

 

Main battery - 2x3 283 mm. Firing range - 16.7 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 3,200. HE shell armor penetration - 71 mm. Chance to cause fire – 20%. HE initial velocity - 910 m/s. Maximum AP shell damage - 8,400. AP initial velocity - 910 m/s. Reload time - 18 s. 180 degree turn time - 27.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 148m. Sigma – 1.9.

Secondary Armament:

4x2 150.0 mm, range - 6.3 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. HE initial velocity - 875 m/s; 

3x2 105.0 mm, range  - 6.3 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,200. Chance to cause fire – 5%. HE initial velocity - 900 m/s;

AA defense: 4x2 37.0 mm, 3x2 105.0 mm, 4x1 20.0mm, 6x1 20.0mm

AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second - 85, hit probability - 85 %, action zone - 2.0 km;

AA defense mid-range: continuous damage per second - 28, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 3.5 km;

AA defense long-range: continuous damage per second - 90, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 5.2 km;

Number of explosions in a salvo - 4, damage within an explosion - 1260, action zone 3.5 - 5.2 km.

 

Stock A hull torps

Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 13700. Range - 6.0 km. Speed - 64 kt. Reload time - 90 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km.

 

Upgraded B hull torps

Torpedo tubes - 2x3 533 mm. Maximum damage - 13700. Range - 8.0 km. Speed - 65 kt. Reload time - 80 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km.

 

Maximum speed - 29.0 kt - 33.0 kt. Turning circle radius - 710 m. Rudder shift time – 9.1 s. Surface detectability – 13.1 km. Air detectability – 7.3 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke  – 9.7 km.

Available consumables:

Slot 1 - Damage Control Party 

Slot 2 - Repair Party (Duration time 14 s; HP per second 204; Reload time 40 s; Charges 5)

Slot 3 - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire

Slot 4 (upgraded) - Spotter plane/Fighter

 

 

 

T8. Dönitz

 

 

 

 

Its a 4x2 305mm Zenker design in 1928

17500 tons light, 19192 tons standard, 21000 tons heavy load, 206m length

100mm belt thinning to 80mm at bow and stern, 20mm upper deck, 30mm cit deck

34 kts with 160000 hp engine

4x2 305mm, 3x3 150mm, 2x3/4 533mm torps, 2x2 88mm/105mm, (I’ll give it a couple of 20mm and 37mm guns previously on the Graf spee, as a bit of a hull upgrade, since WG does give fake AA upgrades for game balance.

 

 

Stats:-

Hit points – 53,500. Plating - 27 mm. Fires duration: 60 s.

 

Main battery - 4x2 305 mm. Firing range - 17.5 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 3,600. HE shell armor penetration - 76 mm. Chance to cause fire – 27%. HE initial velocity - 865 m/s. Maximum AP shell damage - 9,100. AP initial velocity - 865 m/s. Reload time - 23 s. 180 degree turn time - 30.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 154m. Sigma – 2.0.

Secondary Armament:

3x3 150.0 mm,  range - 7.6km

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. HE initial velocity - 960 m/s; 

3x2 105.0 mm, range  - 7.6 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,200. Chance to cause fire – 5%. HE initial velocity - 900 m/s;

 

AA defense: 4x2 37.0 mm, 3x2 105.0 mm, 4x4 20.0mm

AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second - 230, hit probability - 85 %, action zone - 2.0 km;

AA defense mid-range: continuous damage per second - 150, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 3.5 km;

AA defense long-range: continuous damage per second - 90, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 5.2 km;

Number of explosions in a salvo - 5, damage within an explosion - 1260, action zone 3.5 - 5.2 km.

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 13700. Range - 8.0 km. Speed - 64 kt. Reload time - 80 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.3 km.

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 14400. Range - 9.5 km. Speed - 66 kt. Reload time - 90 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.4 km.

 

Maximum speed - 34.0 kt. Turning circle radius - 820 m. Rudder shift time – 10.3 s. Surface detectability – 13.1 km. Air detectability – 7.3 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke  – 9.7 km.

Available consumables:

Slot 1 - Damage Control Party 

Slot 2 - Repair Party (Duration time 14 s; HP per second 239.5; Reload time 40 s; Charges 6)

Slot 3 - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire

Slot 4 (upgraded) - Spotter plane/Fighter

 

 

T9. Heimberg

 

O class BC, very similar to Siegfried.

The O class was a planned class of three battlecruisers for the Kriegsmarine (German navy) before World War II. Prompted by a perceived lack in ship numbers when compared with the British Royal Navy, the O class' design was born with the suggestion of modifying the P-class cruiser design with 380 mm (15 in) guns instead of 283 mm (11.1 in).

 

The ships were incorporated into the 1939 Plan Z for the re-equipment and expansion of the Kriegsmarine; while an aircraft carrier, H-class battleships and smaller ships engaged convoy escorts, one or more O-class ships would attack the merchant ships.

 

The O class' design reflected their intended role; a heavy main armament (six 380 mm guns in three dual turrets) for possible encounters with escorting 203 mm (8 in)-armed heavy cruisers, enough armor to defend against the same and nothing more, and a high top speed so that they could get away from slower but much better armored capital ships.

 

Although planned and ordered, construction did not progress due to lack of materials and higher priorities for ship construction.

This particular O class will not be using its 128mm guns, as the premiums do, and will carry a different secondary battery, as well as minor difference here and there

 

Stats:-

Hit points – 64,500. Plating - 30 mm. Fires duration: 60 s.

 

Main battery - 3x2 380 mm. Firing range - 18.0 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 4,400. HE shell armor penetration - 95 mm. Chance to cause fire – 34%. HE initial velocity - 820 m/s. Maximum AP shell damage - 11,600. AP initial velocity - 820 m/s. Reload time - 27 s. 180 degree turn time - 40.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 161m. Sigma – 1.90.

Secondary Armament:

4x2 150.0 mm range - 7.95km

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. HE initial velocity - 960 m/s;

4x2 105.0 mm range  - 7.95 km. 

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,200. Chance to cause fire – 5%. HE initial velocity - 900 m/s;

 

AA defense: 4x2 37.0 mm, 4x2 105.0 mm, 10x2 20.0mm

AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second - 265, hit probability - 85 %, action zone - 2.0 km;

AA defense mid-range: continuous damage per second - 189, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 3.5 km;

AA defense long-range: continuous damage per second - 95, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 5.2 km;

Number of explosions in a salvo - 5, damage within an explosion - 1260, action zone 3.5 - 5.2 km.

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x3 533 mm. Maximum damage - 14400. Range - 9.5 km. Speed - 66 kt. Reload time - 85 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.4 km.

 

Upgraded

Torpedo tubes - 2x3 533 mm. Maximum damage - 14400. Range - 10.0 km. Speed - 67 kt. Reload time - 90 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.4 km.

 

Maximum speed - 33.0 kt. Turning circle radius - 870 m. Rudder shift time – 13.3 s. Surface detectability – 15.9 km. Air detectability – 11.1 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke  – 13.5 km.

Available consumables:

Slot 1 - Damage Control Party 

Slot 2 - Repair Party (Duration time 14 s; HP per second 322.5; Reload time 40 s; Charges 6)

Slot 3 - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire

Slot 4 - Spotter plane/Fighter

 

 

T10. Holtzendorff

 

This is the KW45 design, the next logical step of the O class battlecruisers. There were many intriguing projects such as KW45 and KW50 designed between June and September 1939. Reports issued by the Director of Naval Intelligence on 8/29/45 contained capture documentation of submarines, cruisers, destroyers, battleships and carriers. Discussed by the "Neubauausschuss" during the 1939 time period, no other previous mention or subsequent mention of these ships have been found in the German archives. Immense, fast, under-armed and under- armored battlecruisers had advanced designs completed but were never approved. These would have suffered from the same design defects as the OPQs but remain intriguing ships.

Bearing the same family resemblance to all other German capital ships, these twin funneled ships basically mounted a BISMARCK armament on an H sized hull. The triple 5.9" resembled the LITTORIO layout while the 4.1" AA was completely inadequate. 16-37mm completed the AA armament.

 

A five shaft power plant consumed enormous hull space and provided 36-37 knot speed with 300,000 shp. Special tunnels housed the shafts and towing tests revealed at least a 10% increase in efficiency with coefficients ranging between 0.42 and 0.48. Three different power plant arrangements were being considered. Proposal A had 4 diesel shafts and 1 steam turbine while Proposal C had 2 diesels and 3 steam turbines. All had three rudders in the aft 3 propeller races.

 

There are the specs:-

 

Designation - KW45

Hull parameters - 45,000 tons, 984' long, 111' wide

Speed - 36-37 knots

Firepower - 8-15"/47 (4x2), 12-5.9"/55 (4x3), 8-4.1" (4x2), 8-21" TT

Armor - 8" belt

 

 

Stats:-

Hit points – 73,900. Plating - 30 mm. Fires duration: 60 s.

 

Main battery - 4x2 380 mm. Firing range - 18.5 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 4,400. HE shell armor penetration - 95 mm. Chance to cause fire – 34%. HE initial velocity - 820 m/s. Maximum AP shell damage - 11,600. AP initial velocity - 820 m/s. Reload time - 29 s. 180 degree turn time - 40.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 161m. Sigma – 2.00.

Secondary Armament:

4x3 150.0 mm range - 8.3 km

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,700. Chance to cause fire – 8%. HE initial velocity - 960 m/s; 

4x2 105.0 mm range - 8.3 km.

Maximum HE shell damage – 1,200. Chance to cause fire – 5%. HE initial velocity - 900 m/s

 

AA defense: 8x2 37.0 mm, 4x2 105.0 mm, 4x4 20.0mm

AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second - 267, hit probability - 85 %, action zone - 2.0 km;

AA defense mid-range: continuous damage per second - 290, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 3.5 km;

AA defense long-range: continuous damage per second - 95, hit probability - 90 %, action zone - 5.8 km;

Number of explosions in a salvo - 6, damage within an explosion - 1260, action zone 3.5 - 5.8 km.

 

Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 14400. Range - 10.0 km. Speed - 67 kt. Reload time - 85 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.4 km.

 

Upgraded

Torpedo tubes - 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage - 14400. Range - 10.5 km. Speed - 69 kt. Reload time - 90 s.  Launcher 180 degree turn time – 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability - 1.4 km.

 

Maximum speed - 37.0 kt. Turning circle radius - 910 m. Rudder shift time – 15.3 s. Surface detectability – 16.2 km. Air detectability – 11.3 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke  – 13.7 km.

Available consumables:

Slot 1 - Damage Control Party 

Slot 2 - Repair Party (Duration time 14 s; HP per second 369.5; Reload time 40 s; Charges 6)

Slot 3 - Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire

Slot 4 - Spotter plane/Fighter

 

That's it for now, hope you like the proposals 

 

I'll probably be working on Japanese Light cruisers and commonwealth DDs next

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

You are obviously a ship enthusiast, as I am!

You have put a lot of effort into your proposal, and the ships are interesting.

 

From the point of view of

a) cruiser "main" (as I am),

b) an average player who feels that cruisers have been in a bad place for a long time,

 

I have to say that IMHO of a ship has the same 283mm guns at Tier 7 as Scharnhorst then it should be treated in the matchmaking as a "Battlseship", not a "Cruiser".

 

[totally_potato]

35 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

I have to say that IMHO of a ship has the same 283mm guns at Tier 7 as Scharnhorst then it should be treated in the matchmaking as a "Battlseship", not a "Cruiser".

we can say the same of Pommern and Siegfried or Congress and Odin then tbh

[SV_Kompresor]

Yay. More powercreep to actual cruisers.

[invicta2012]

37 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

I have to say that IMHO of a ship has the same 283mm guns at Tier 7 as Scharnhorst then it should be treated in the matchmaking as a "Battlseship", not a "Cruiser".

 

I think 11inch guns would be fine, as they are on Graf Spee. The line should probably have no more guns than Scharnhorst or any greater calibre so I'm not keen on cruisers having 380/15 inch guns, those ships should be battleships. 

[totally_potato]

23 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Yay. More powercreep to actual cruisers.

No

Cruisers have half the fire duration and more DPS with more versatility. Supercruisers focus on alpha, and in some cases, more armor but are much more vulnerable HE fire. 

[fumtu]

2 hours ago, totally_potato said:

American SCs

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OgK3HPAW5ir5dOr2xucdeV_JYLA5qWB0oC5qk5TiH0Q/edit?usp=sharing

 

This seems like quite old proposal. Putting a preliminary to Pensacola and Portland in SC line even tho none of those two have anything that would make anything close to SC at T6/T7. And first one has torps while the rest of the line don't making it completely inconsistent. Those two were put there just to have ships for T6 and T7. Totally pointless.

 

T8-T10 are already in the game, well almost. T8 is preliminary to Alaska class which WG used as inspiration to T8 Congress even tho this ship would be smaller then Alaska. But it is easier to copy paste already existing hull than create a new one. T9 and T10 are basically Alska and Puerto Rico. 

 

Two to three years ago this, at least from T8-T10, would be a nice addition, now it is just a duplication of already existing ships in the game. Maybe if one day WG add all their fantasy ships this line would be added, but I doubt that we will see it any time soon.  

 

Also, I will never understand a need to create a playstyle, stats, consumables for proposals of this kind, when there is zero chance for WG would even pay attention to them. How about just put ships and their real or intended stats IRL instead.

 

1 minute ago, totally_potato said:

Cruisers have half the fire duration and more DPS with more versatility. Supercruisers focus on alpha, and in some cases, more armor but are much more vulnerable HE fire. 

 

SC with 380mm guns should be more exception, if not preset at all, then norm. They can overmatch 25mm of majority of cruisers with exception of German and US CAs. It is just putting even more pressure on regular cruiser which becoming more and more irrelevant. Anything above 305mm should be a BB at high tiers.

[Itwastuesday]

Maybe IJN split tho? There's more Soviet and KM lines now than IJN which was an actual navy...

[yagron_the_real]

Interesting proposals. For the US line to me it seems that every ship is very close to an existing tech tree/premium/special ship, so I don't quite get it.

I like the German line more, first off I think we can all agree that a panzershiff line would be very welcomed. I agree though that giving cruisers 380 mm guns is probably not the best for game balance. My idea would be something like this:

- 45 s fires

- 283 mm guns, maybe 305 at the top tiers

- low barrel count compensated by good reload for the caliber

- ok range

- torps

- repair party from T6 ( standard, or some interesting one like your proposal, not the British one though )

- kind of average armour, handling, concealment for a supercruiser

- hydro probably

[totally_potato]

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

Also, I will never understand a need to create a playstyle, stats, consumables for proposals of this kind, when there is zero chance for WG would even pay attention to them. How about just put ships and their real or intended stats IRL instead.

actually

The German BCs, Dutch cruisers, the German heavy DD, and italian BBs, were taken from forum proposals, as well as many premiums. Now this is purely based on circumstantial evidence, but I do personally think WG actually does have a look at proposals, hence I posted it

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

SC with 380mm guns should be more exception, if not preset at all, then norm. They can overmatch 25mm of majority of cruisers with exception of German and US CAs. It is just putting even more pressure on regular cruiser which becoming more and more irrelevant. Anything above 305mm should be a BB at high tiers.

The SCs we have of 15 inch caliber doesn't fit in anything but the high tier cruiser slot. If we place it as a BB, at high tier, its too weak, if we place it at lower tier, its year of design or existence, simply doesn't make sense according to the tier. Its generally known that, T2-4 are pre war to WW1 ships, while T5-7 are late WW1 to inter war ships, and finally, T8-10 are WW2 and beyond ships. So playing a WW2 design at T6 or 7, just doesn't make sense. 

Power level wise, I agree they fit in the high tier cruiser slots. 15 inch can also overmatch a very limited number of ships overall so no big deal.

[totally_potato]

22 minutes ago, yagron_the_real said:

Interesting proposals. For the US line to me it seems that every ship is very close to an existing tech tree/premium/special ship, so I don't quite get it.

I like the German line more, first off I think we can all agree that a panzershiff line would be very welcomed. I agree though that giving cruisers 380 mm guns is probably not the best for game balance. My idea would be something like this:

- 45 s fires

- 283 mm guns, maybe 305 at the top tiers

- low barrel count compensated by good reload for the caliber

- ok range

- torps

- repair party from T6 ( standard, or some interesting one like your proposal, not the British one though )

- kind of average armour, handling, concealment for a supercruiser

- hydro probably

the US line is a bit of an old proposal. I put it through coz I had it, and thought it was interesting.

Tbh, cruisers already have 380mm guns, and we know WG won't stop, so I simply went ahead with the route, and gave them a long reload in compensation for their crazy accuracy and caliber, plus a bit lower sigma than usual.

I did think about the 45 sec fires, but re-thinking about it, since I envisioned this line going the tank route, I decided to put 45 sec fires for lower than T8 big gun cruisers, and retain 60 secs for T8+. 

 

I honestly think 380s is more historical, but if ya think its not good for the game, you do have a bit of a point. There is an alternative, and that could be fitting the T9 and T10 with Agir's 305mm, which does have a bit of a basis. So there's that

[1MajorKoenig]

4 hours ago, totally_potato said:

T8. Dönitz

I still like this design - however Infond the name Donitz a little odd. I would prefer “Admiral Zenker” as this design was his Project in a way (although his career ended with these designs)

 

4 hours ago, totally_potato said:

T7. Schröder (D class stock/P class upgraded)

I don’t like this part. D-Class had better armor but P-Class was faster. I think the P-Class fits your proposed style better 

 

But why “Schröder“…? 

 

This guy here?

 

EDIT:  Nice proposal though 

[fumtu]

13 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

The German BCs, Dutch cruisers, the German heavy DD, and italian BBs, were taken from forum proposals, as well as many premiums.

 

Sure ... you can believe in that. Because I know all those proposals and they are not the same as the lines we got. Fact that some ships might be the same is just that that by logic those ships were obvious choices. And if you think that WG is taking proposed stats seriously just read again whole story behind Yukon. If they ignored LWM, why do you think they will listen to you?

 

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The SCs we have of 15 inch caliber doesn't fit in anything but the high tier cruiser slot.

 

BS. What about Bourgone, Colombo, JB, Alsace, Pommern or maybe new Marlborough with 14inch guns? I remember the time when 305mm was considered to big for cruisers now someone think that 15inch is only fit for cruisers. F game, lets continue with powercreep.  

 

 

[WWDragon]

We already have enough historical supercruisers and dont need more, especially when they are entirely fantasy.

 

Yes, the O-Class had 380mm guns but we talking about the same people that put 150mm guns on destroyers just to put a more sane and effective caliber in future designs that says more about the lack of experience of said designers that anything else, Germany certainly did not need supercruisers as the Royal Navy (their primary foe) had ceased development of heavy cruisers and German Heavy Cruisers were entirely capable of dealing with Royal Navy modern cruisers, any progression of the O-Class would had sanity by lowering the caliber to a more sensible caliber to increase rate of fire, I mean the O-Class was meant to destroy cargo ships and 380mm was overkill.

 

As for the USN ... the Alaska class was meant to counter the rumored Japanese Super Heavy Cruisers that didnt exist and when the Japanese learned of the Alaska specifications they changed their into countering it, even if their rejected proposal of up the caliber was "just" to 356mm.

 

Logically supercruisers can only exist in the same vein as the Alaska class and the Japanese Super Heavy Cruiser, they were cruiser killers and could only be projects with the WNT in the garbage bin, so we talking about Tier VIII-X ships that trade the utility of cruisers and the ability to engage both destroyers and battleships so they can destroy cruisers, not a exercise to create a cruiser that can do everything ... no, they have to be vulnerable to battleships and not effective against destroyers ... against other cruisers? sure because its a specialized ship as I dont subscribe to the notion "everything must be able to engage everything else and be engaged by everything else in return", you can do ships that are very specialized on a niche but the playerbase being what it is, they demand nerfs to then because the so called "rock-paper-scissors" design (that I disagree with) only matters when their paper mains and see a specialized scissor design.

[Aethervoxx]

NO! What are you doing, totally_potato? Are you mad? Don't give Wedgie ideas to wreak this game any further.  Let Wedgie wreak WoWS themselves. They sure don't need anyone else's assistance.

 

[totally_potato]

3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I still like this design - however Infond the name Donitz a little odd. I would prefer “Admiral Zenker” as this design was his Project in a way (although his career ended with these designs)

 

I don’t like this part. D-Class had better armor but P-Class was faster. I think the P-Class fits your proposed style better 

 

But why “Schröder“…? 

 

This guy here?

 

EDIT:  Nice proposal though 

I actually put out a long list of German admirals, and just chose whatever I liked xD. 

 

3 hours ago, fumtu said:

 

Sure ... you can believe in that. Because I know all those proposals and they are not the same as the lines we got. Fact that some ships might be the same is just that that by logic those ships were obvious choices. And if you think that WG is taking proposed stats seriously just read again whole story behind Yukon. If they ignored LWM, why do you think they will listen to you?

 

 

BS. What about Bourgone, Colombo, JB, Alsace, Pommern or maybe new Marlborough with 14inch guns? I remember the time when 305mm was considered to big for cruisers now someone think that 15inch is only fit for cruisers. F game, lets continue with powercreep.  

 

 

First point fair enough. 

 

Second point. The caliber of guns are just one of the factors that defines a class, not the whole reason why x is a y class. Armor, size, firepower relative to other existing ships of that era, range, speed, etc etc etc. 

If Siegfried is doing well as a cruiser, I'm pretty sure, the T9 and T10 will fit in well. Again, there is a solution, of fitting Agir guns into there, instead of the 15 inchers. 

[fumtu]

2 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

 I'm pretty sure, the T9 and T10 will fit in well. Again, there is a solution, of fitting Agir guns into there, instead of the 15 inchers. 

 

Will they? Let see, by your proposal both T9 and T10 should have 30mm bow. Tell me what Montana can do vs this so called cruiser? It can't overmatch it, it can't burn it, it can't ourrun it ... I can only die if this ... thing ... decide to rush it. At T9 situation is even worse. There is only two T9 BBs that can overmatch 30mm, and none of them is available currently. So basically you just put a BB on a cruiser slot and directly nerfed every BB with 406mm guns. Hell even German BCs has 27mm bow at high tiers. And you put relatively fast, long range torps with fast reload on top of it. Why FFS should this thing have better torps than Venezia for example? Sorry but this proposal is completely insane. From 15inch guns to 30mm bow to long range/fast reloading torps. You just can't have all. Propose ships without your stats. And forget about cruisers with 30mm bow, that is not going to happen. Imagine if I or WG posted same stats for some paper Soviet ships. What would be reaction of you or playerbase when they read those stats. Just because these ships are Germans it does not mean that would be acceptable even tho for Soviets we would have a riot now. 

 

Unfortunately I am sure WG will add KW45-KW50 design to the game sooner or later, I don't know will they go with 305mm or 380mm, probably both. But as a premiums I could understand, full line of those, please no. Nice ships, but stop posting imaginary stats that has nothing with balance.

[yagron_the_real]

3 hours ago, totally_potato said:

the US line is a bit of an old proposal. I put it through coz I had it, and thought it was interesting.

Tbh, cruisers already have 380mm guns, and we know WG won't stop, so I simply went ahead with the route, and gave them a long reload in compensation for their crazy accuracy and caliber, plus a bit lower sigma than usual.

I did think about the 45 sec fires, but re-thinking about it, since I envisioned this line going the tank route, I decided to put 45 sec fires for lower than T8 big gun cruisers, and retain 60 secs for T8+. 

 

I honestly think 380s is more historical, but if ya think its not good for the game, you do have a bit of a point. There is an alternative, and that could be fitting the T9 and T10 with Agir's 305mm, which does have a bit of a basis. So there's that

I have zero doubt WG wouldn't mind 380 guns...On the other hand I think it's better game balance wise, and personally I'd prefer accurate fast firing 280 mm guns to accurate slow firing 380s.
But your point does make sense.

 

 

3 hours ago, WWDragon said:

We already have enough historical supercruisers and dont need more, especially when they are entirely fantasy.

 

Yes, the O-Class had 380mm guns but we talking about the same people that put 150mm guns on destroyers just to put a more sane and effective caliber in future designs that says more about the lack of experience of said designers that anything else, Germany certainly did not need supercruisers as the Royal Navy (their primary foe) had ceased development of heavy cruisers and German Heavy Cruisers were entirely capable of dealing with Royal Navy modern cruisers, any progression of the O-Class would had sanity by lowering the caliber to a more sensible caliber to increase rate of fire, I mean the O-Class was meant to destroy cargo ships and 380mm was overkill.

 

As for the USN ... the Alaska class was meant to counter the rumored Japanese Super Heavy Cruisers that didnt exist and when the Japanese learned of the Alaska specifications they changed their into countering it, even if their rejected proposal of up the caliber was "just" to 356mm.

 

Logically supercruisers can only exist in the same vein as the Alaska class and the Japanese Super Heavy Cruiser, they were cruiser killers and could only be projects with the WNT in the garbage bin, so we talking about Tier VIII-X ships that trade the utility of cruisers and the ability to engage both destroyers and battleships so they can destroy cruisers, not a exercise to create a cruiser that can do everything ... no, they have to be vulnerable to battleships and not effective against destroyers ... against other cruisers? sure because its a specialized ship as I dont subscribe to the notion "everything must be able to engage everything else and be engaged by everything else in return", you can do ships that are very specialized on a niche but the playerbase being what it is, they demand nerfs to then because the so called "rock-paper-scissors" design (that I disagree with) only matters when their paper mains and see a specialized scissor design.

 

The supercruisers that many navies had in various stages of development, in my opinion, among the most interesting ships that could be added to the game. We all know WOWS exist in a sort of alternate history, where economics, politics, (common sense...) and similar hurdles does not exist, but it makes an interesting game. 
In this setting I, and I think many other players, prefer ships that are grounded in reality (might not be built or completed, but made it past some or several rounds of design work) over WG fantasy designs.
 

[1MajorKoenig]

4 hours ago, WWDragon said:

We already have enough historical supercruisers and dont need more, especially when they are entirely fantasy.

None of these are fantasy though but Design proposal of various maturity stages.

 

4 hours ago, WWDragon said:

Yes, the O-Class had 380mm guns but we talking about the same people that put 150mm guns on destroyers just to put a more sane and effective caliber in future designs that says more about the lack of experience of said designers that anything else, Germany certainly did not need supercruisers as the Royal Navy (their primary foe) had ceased development of heavy cruisers and German Heavy Cruisers were entirely capable of dealing with Royal Navy modern cruisers, any progression of the O-Class would had sanity by lowering the caliber to a more sensible caliber to increase rate of fire, I mean the O-Class was meant to destroy cargo ships and 380mm was overkill.

150mm on DDs was indeed an ill-fated experiment which already started with the S-113 class in WW1. This class came about under the impression of undergunned German Toroedboats (88 or 105mm caliber) which struggled to fight the British destroyers on equal terms.

However the design came too late to recognize that loading these guns on a DD sized boat is like lifting sandbags while standing on roller skates. And that in practical terms the 127mm guns were strong enough while much better to operate manually.

 

However - the whole development line from D-Land up to the O-Class was a dead end. D-Land was a political move to max out the limitations of the Versailles treaty and to annoy the potential enemies. 
 

Evolving this ship into dedicated long range raiders was flawed to Begin with as Germany lacked oversea stations for repair which means that any hit is a probable mission kill Which in turn means losing the unit 

 

Therefore it is indeed irrelevant if the guns on the raider are 28cm, 30.5cm, 33cm, 35cm or whatever. Any of these guns would nuke an enemy Washington cruiser but that isn’t worth much unless you can get a repair after any potential fight. 
 

Where you are wrong is that the German heavy cruisers (which only class were the Hippers) were “good enough”. The whole class was useless and rightfully called “10-minutes-cruisers” (save as AA escorts maybe eg what US did)

[totally_potato]

14 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Where you are wrong is that the German heavy cruisers (which only class were the Hippers) were “good enough”. The whole class was useless and rightfully called “10-minutes-cruisers” (save as AA escorts maybe eg what US did)

kek

Ship armed with 8 203mm guns is heavier than a ship armed with 9 203mm guns. That alone tells you how fine German engineering is 

[invicta2012]

5 hours ago, totally_potato said:

I honestly think 380s is more historical, but if ya think its not good for the game, you do have a bit of a point. There is an alternative, and that could be fitting the T9 and T10 with Agir's 305mm, which does have a bit of a basis. So there's that

12 inch guns on a cruiser seems a natural limit - not sure if it was ever a 1920s/1930s treaty rule but it seems logical for this game. Intermediate calibres (like the 9.2 inch British guns, and the 10 inch they considered) are quite interesting. 

 

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Where you are wrong is that the German heavy cruisers (which only class were the Hippers) were “good enough”. The whole class was useless and rightfully called “10-minutes-cruisers” (save as AA escorts maybe eg what US did)

I can't remember the source, but I recall seeing that the British Admiralty calculated that a "heavy" cruiser had two salvos in order to land a significant strike in a duel with a similar enemy. After that, a light cruiser (of similar tonnage) with 6 inch guns would outmatch the heavy cruiser through weight of fire. 

[Verblonde]

Nice proposal, OP! I'm horribly unqualified to comment on whether or not it's a good idea for the game, but it's interesting reading about the ships!

[SodaBubbles]

Excellent post and proposals.

 

Do your proposed ships get turtleback armor schemes?

[totally_potato]

7 hours ago, SodaBubbles said:

Excellent post and proposals.

 

Do your proposed ships get turtleback armor schemes?

The T6-8 will be similar to graf spee armor scheme

T9 and T10 have turtlebacks similar to sieg, so might work against smaller caliber guns.

[Northern_Nightowl]

Vor 11 Stunden, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

Where you are wrong is that the German heavy cruisers (which only class were the Hippers) were “good enough”. The whole class was useless and rightfully called “10-minutes-cruisers” (save as AA escorts maybe eg what US did)

The Hipper class ships had a disadvantage in 2 of them: their high-pressure high temperature steam turbine powerplant that showed troublesome and prone to battle damage in practice. Save for Prinz Eugen who performed very well during the whole war and actually was the heaviest Kriegsmarine unit surviving.

 

What do you mean with "the whole class was useless"? Please state whether it's about the Hipper class of ships or about the ship type "heavy cruiser" that is to say, a vessel that was to have a maximum a displacement of 10.000 tons and guns up to 203 mm / 8 inches as per the Washington naval treaty?

 

The sobriquet "10 minutes cruiser" was IIRC never applied to any German ship. It's about the over-gunned and under-armored Japanese, US and maybe British ships that were build or planned in the prelude of WWII for a fight in the Pacific. As designers put a premium on guns, as large and as much as mechanically fitting on a given hull size where around a third of possible weight was already used up for propulsion, there were not much displacement left for armour. Hence, the resilience to battle damage was doubtful at least and the sobriquet likely deserved.

 

This is approximately mirrored in game. I would rather go against a Baltimore in a Hipper than the opposite (or Yorck vs. New Orleans) even if I am not to use the German torpedoes. 

 

Regards, Nightowl