New *EDITED* idea for a better matchmaking

[Grumpy_Shark]

So here it goes. I ll try to explain the general idea: 

Just like it happens in sports but taking in consideration just the player's current stats in randoms. And reconfirming them each month or couple of months according to how they will have been set. Example from football. So the football of each country is composed of various groups (divisions). Group Alpha (purple) Group Beta (Green) Group Gamma (Yellow) Group Delta (Blue) Group Epsilon (bronze) And the players belonging on these categories would have their name painted to the color of the category they belong so purple green yellow blue or bronze. For example Grumpy_Shark aka myself would be in Blue letters. 

So for players from 60% win ratio and above (not sure about the exact numbers) these will be the "purple division" and the name of the player will be painted in the color of the division he belongs (just like happens with the clans that the initials are painted to the color of their rank in clan battles) 
So for
60% and above (purple division)
59.99-55 (green division)
54.99-50 yellow division)
49.99-45 (blue divison)
44.99 and below (bronze division) 

So the MM will chose to play only players of their division. 

Eventually people that will drop below the stat limits will be appointed on the lower division. (this can be calculated on a per_month_ratio so that the players near the limit will not rise and fall on a daily basis)

That way the mm will be more fair for all but also being into one will mean something. So the purple people yes they might get harder mm but they will also have their name being painted in purple. But also the low tier players will benefit cause they will get easier mm for them so that they can have more fun and not fall victiims to the experts. Cause they will be fighting similarly skilled people. Of course they might not like the color of their name being bronze for example but i mean eventually some of them will be winning more than others and they will eventually rise to the above category. That way people will complain less about their teams. 
So what do you think? 

PS In the long run it will lead to some stats homogenization of the players. So the extreems will be less steep but it will just lead into the situations where 51 to 52 will mean much more than 50 to 55 nowdays So these people that are like 40-45 some of them will start winning more than they lose so their stats will rise
  .And the piurple category players their stats will start to fall cause they won't be able to systaain an above 60% win ratio per day to systain their current stats cause they ll be fighting against others like them so i expect they get a closer to 50-55% win ratio. But not so big deal, i mean their stats will fall in general but they will have more fun and their name will be painted purple at least during the first year or couple of years (cause some 65% out there have also like 20k matches so it will take plenty of days to drop from that. Purples with fewer matches will drop faster. But i still believe that there are differences between purples so not all 65% are the same. I believe some of them are up there also due to luck. With that new system will see who the real purples are or deserve to be. Same happens with some bronze. They are not all terrible. Some might be decent and just being very unlucky with mm. With the new system i propose this unfairness will cease to exist or diminish severly.  In the future the categories might alter so if less people above 60% the categories may change accordingly and start from lower so no problem there. It will just lead into less extreems (statwise) so not so many 39% and not so many 65% . The 65 will get to 55 and the 39 to 45 (for example) Eventually the categories may change again. But the stats will still count so purple guys dont worry. You stats will still be above the others. It will just lead that eventually a 55^% to a 54% will be what is  a 60% of today to a 55%. But the positive thing will be that with stats so close also the categories will eventually be more dynamic than initialy. And your stats will still count people. Don't think like (oh my stats will get wrecked) They will still matter and will be there for quite some time but just the extreems will diminish on both ends. Lower and higher. And everybody will havea more fun and challenging experience
 

[ColonelPete]

• Ranked does not work that way
• The waiting times would EXPLODE
• Most players would end up in the yellow and blue division anyway

[Ronchabale]

3 hours ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

So here it goes. I ll try to explain the general idea: 

Just COMBINE the ranked system with the random matches just like it happens in sports. (example football) So the football of each country is composed of various groups (divisions). Group Alpha (purple) Group Beta (Green) Group Gamma (Yellow) Group Delta (Blue) Group Epsilon (bronze) 

So for players from 60% win ratio and above (not sure about the exact numbers) these will be the "purple division" and the name of the player will be painted in the color of the division he belongs (just like happens with the clans that the initials are painted to the color of their rank in clan battles) 
So for
60% and above (purple division)
59.99-55 (green division)
54.99-50 yellow division)
49.99-45 (blue divison)
44.99 and below (bronze division) 

So the MM will chose to play only players of their division. 

Eventually people that will drop below the stat limits will be appointed on the lower division. (this can be calculated on a per_month_ratio so that the players near the limit will not rise and fall on a daily basis)

That way the mm will be more fair for all but also being into one will mean something. So the purple people yes they might get harder mm but they will also have their name being painted in purple. But also the low tier players will benefit cause they will get easier mm for them so that they can have more fun and not fall victiims to the experts. Cause they will be fighting similarly skilled people. Of course they might not like the color of their name being bronze for example but i mean eventually some of them will be winning more than others and they will eventually rise to the above category. That way people will complain less about their teams. 
So what do you think? 

PS In the long run it will lead to some stats homogenization of the players. So the extreems will be less steep but it will just lead into the situations where 51 to 52 will mean much more than 50 to 55 nowdays So these people that are like 40-45 some of them will start winning more than they lose so their stats will quickly rise
  .And the piurple category players their stats will quickly fall cause they won't be able to systaain an above 60% win ratio per day to systain their current stats cause they ll be fighting against others like them so i expect they get a closer to 50% rwin ratio. But not so big deal, i mean their stats will fall in general but they will have more fun and their name will be painted purple at least during the first year. Well in the future the categories might alter so if less people above 60% thee categories may change accordingly so no problem there. It will just lead into less extreems (statwise) so not so many 39% and not so many 65% . The 65 will get to 55 and the 39 to 45 (for example) Eventually the categories may change again. But the stats will still count so purple guys dont worry. You stats will still be above the others. It will just lead that eventually a 55^% to a 54% will be what is  a 60% of today to a 55%. But the positive thing will be that with stats so close also the categories will eventually be more dynamic than initialy. And your stats will still count people. Don't think like (oh my stats will get wrecked) They will still matter and will be there for quite some time but just the extreems will diminish on both ends. Lower and higher. And everybody will havea more fun and challenging experience
 

I can see what u are getting at but Ranked system  ?

I havn´t played ranked in over 2 years

What league would I play in ? 

[General_Alexus]

With this (over the long run) everybody would end up with 50% WR.

You could sum this post up with:

 

Use ELO system for matchmaking.

 

The algorithm for this is way more suffisticated and less arbitary than what you try to describe here.

ELO systems are also so standart (from Chess to CSGO) that not using it can be considered a deliberate choise by WG, therefore we dont need to discuss it.

[Ronchabale]

18 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

With this (over the long run) everybody would end up with 50% WR.

You could sum this post up with:

 

Use ELO system for matchmaking.

 

The algorithm for this is way more suffisticated and less arbitary than what you try to describe here.

ELO systems are also so standart (from Chess to CSGO) that not using it can be considered a deliberate choise by WG, therefore we dont need to discuss it.

ELO would still end up with everyone at around 50% WR but might make for less blowouts and genarally make gaming more fun 

 

[Wulf_Ace]

as long as you depend on other people in your team this will never be "fair" system,as we can see red players are advancing to gold league and hitchhiking its way to wins.

 

Only fair system would be on your personal doing in the battles, but then again you cant advance like that.

Maybe just maybe LoL system of ranked could be a more interesting one.

[Bear__Necessities]

6 hours ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

So the MM will chose to play only players of their division. 

No. I'm not waiting in queue for a stupid amount of time because the majority of the player base wish to remain crap. 

[GarrusBrutus]

"New" idea. Meanwhile 700 pages of matchmaking thread, full of "new" ideas. 

 

Wargaming doesn't want it so it will not happen.

[SkollUlfr]

9 hours ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

60% and above (purple division)
59.99-55 (green division)
54.99-50 yellow division)
49.99-45 (blue divison)
44.99 and below (bronze division) 

the mm needs a minimum viable pool of players to create matches from.

this pool is already subdivided by tier banding and class constraints.

to add skill / performance based mm on top of that would result in wait times longer than matches and or bots to pad teams.

 

a perfect example of the current situation having been specifically selected:

4 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

ELO systems are also so standart (from Chess to CSGO) that not using it can be considered a deliberate choise by WG, therefore we dont need to discuss it.

 

wg has a vision for this game. your idea is not part of it. unintall and just play the forum. more satisfying and less frustrating.

[General_Alexus]

55 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

wg has a vision for this game. your idea is not part of it. unintall and just play the forum. more satisfying and less frustrating.

Maybe you should read my post again, I was not for an ELO system, I said that OPs "Idea" is just a overcomplicated ELO system that is less reliable. And as the algorithms for ELO are availiable and used widely we should expect WG to have already looked at ELO and dismissed it.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

9 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

we should expect WG to have already looked at ELO and dismissed it.

You really expect WG to have looked at a proven and working matchmaking algorythm, when they have their own patented (!) algorythm, that works so utterly fine in achieving their goals (aka making money from all the potatoes who still think they can use money as a replacement for skill and/or effort)?

[geschlittert]

Sorry, i dont want to sit in MM for three hours

[SkollUlfr]

23 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

And as the algorithms for ELO are availiable and used widely we should expect WG to have already looked at ELO and dismissed it.

exactly why i used your post as example for op. wg has a vision for this game, and have actually chosen the mm the game has.

 

[Grumpy_Shark]

9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

• Ranked does not work that way
• The waiting times would EXPLODE
• Most players would end up in the yellow and blue division anyway

* I never meant it to work the way ranked works today.. It will be like random is today with only difference that each player name will be colored according to the stats range he makes part of and when he will hit RANDOM button the game will chose between others like him 
(and we can have  ranked battles as before, so on players from all stat ranges all will start from bronze division and will gradually advance to silver and gold (just like it is now) So the ranked will still be there as a different game mode just as it is now. 
And the CBs will still be there. And the scenarios and everything. 

* 1) So you are confessing now that we are so few players playing after all? I don't think we are so few. In fact this game is supposed to be having like 130.000 players on EU. Whenever i hit random button currently my queue is like 10 cv, 29 bb, 30 cruiser, 20 dd, 10 submarine. I don't want to assume that these are the only players in the whole EU willing to play randoms at that time. If this would be the case the company would go bankrupt. I think that many more are playing and probably the random battle just grabs small sums , small packages of players and arranges them into teams. I don't think that for example only 90 players hit RANDOM each minute. Probably the program creates smaller groups of the whole sum and then assigns them into teams. I don't want to believe that the players are so few  
2) Well many players prefer not to play the game because of the frustrations the game gives. They prefer watching streams instead or simply sit into port. With the mm i propose this will change. More people will start playing the game MORE than before because they will see they get a more fair mm for their skill. 
3) Also it will lead to MANY NEW PLAYERS ARRIVING into the game. So more PROFIT for WG. Isn't that what WG wants anyway? With the new systems the newcomers will have an easier/better time into the game and are more likely to stick than now. 

*Perhaps but that would happen within 3 years or more. Depending on how much they play too. I mean a 66% with 20k randoms even if he would start wining less it would take him quite some time to drop his stats. 
Don't take the ranges i set as final. It could easily be done to see what actual players belong in the win ratio ranges and make them wider. So if too few people are above 60% to have a sufficient player pool for good queue times,well,  that could change. So we could make purple category start from below 60% Maybe at 57% and above 
So we could have it 
57% and above (purple)
57%-53% (green)
53%-48% (yellow)
48%-43% (blue)
43% and below (bronze)
That was just an example So if the total sum of players would be like (from 100k accounts how many above 57% lets say 10k people?
How many below 57% and above 52% lets say 20k ?  
How many from 52% to 48% lets say 30k?  ( i can find the exact numbers on wows stats& numbers site and divide the categories in a way that would contain enough player for decent waiting times to queue for a random. Don't get for certain that those queue timers will increase compared to now, since with the new system proposed the mm will be less unfair, more challenging for the partecipents and more fun the numbers of ACTIVE players playing the game will rise considerably,  so i expect the queue times to actually diminish or stay the same.  
 

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

* 1) So you are confessing now that we are so few players playing after all? I don't think we are so few. In fact this game is supposed to be having like 130.000 players on EU.

1. What is few? We have more than 130k players, but they do not play at the same time. For the number of players that are active at the same time a further division of the playerbase would increase the waiting times, especially for some of the fringe groups you suggested.
2. That happens when you want to play outside of your skillrange. And considering how many players continue to play while whining regularly on the forums, I do not think you will increase the number of active players that way.
3. Players start the game before they know anything about MM. MM is a non-issue for them. But there are ways WG could change low Tiers that they are more user friendly and a better learning enviroment. There are multiple suggestions for that.

18 minutes ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

Don't take the ranges i set as final. It could easily be done to see what actual players belong in the win ratio ranges and make them wider. So if too few people are above 60% to have a sufficient player pool for good queue times,well,  that could change. So we could make purple category start from below 60% Maybe at 57% and above 
So we could have it 
57% and above (purple)
57%-53% (green)
53%-48% (yellow)
48%-43% (blue)
43% and below (bronze)
That was just an example So if the total sum of players would be like (from 100k accounts how many above 57% lets say 10k people?
How many below 57% and above 52% lets say 20k ?  
How many from 52% to 48% lets say 30k?  ( i can find the exact numbers on wows stats& numbers site and divide the categories in a way that would contain enough player for decent waiting times to queue for a random. Don't get for certain that those queue timers will increase compared to now, since with the new system proposed the mm will be less unfair, more challenging for the partecipents and more fun the numbers of ACTIVE players playing the game will rise considerably,  so i expect the queue times to actually diminish or stay the same. 

Some groups are still too small. Anything above 3 groups would not work.

Feel free to look up the player distribution yourself.

Spoiler

 

[JoeSparkx]

This has been suggested or something like it, many times. WG are NOT Interested. 

 

There have been many reasons why, from too hard to implement to queue times would dramatically increase.

 

There simply isn't much financial benefit for them to do it, given the costs involved in trying.

[Grumpy_Shark]

3 hours ago, Adamcriz said:

This has been suggested or something like it, many times. WG are NOT Interested. 

 

There have been many reasons why, from too hard to implement to queue times would dramatically increase.

 

There simply isn't much financial benefit for them to do it, given the costs involved in trying.

1) Then an alternative easier to implement idea. From the whole pool of players that click battle make it so the added stats of the team A does not supass the addes stats of the team B. 
2) Imagine how many players [edited] at the forums instead of playing or watching streams instad of playing. If you add these up i think it could work as i originaly suggest.

The reason people watch streams is because they offer a relaxing yet interesting sight for the viewers because for some reason on the streams the matches even when the streamer loses seems more normal for some inexplicable reason.

Example. Many times i have seen Flamu for example playing some HE spammer weak ships at the back or having great success with Elbings and Sultzes. When i play those there is never someone to spot for me. The enemy never pushes the side i am at. And when they do they are always nose in or relativly nose in. Seems like 2 different worlds. If i was getting in my matches the situations i see in steams i would do 200k myself. It's these kind of streams that the players keep watching so they also try to do the same but in their game it never happens. I remember seeing many streams for example with Roon sitting at 19km with range mod and spamming. When i tried to play Roon you know what happened? At some point of the match my whole team managed to be behind me. At A line. I was at B. It feels as the whole mm sets me up in some way. I try to play the ship "correctly" as suggested and as i watch on the streams. But always in my games the teamates never provide me with these conditions. And i have seen that for me to win is to do illogical or wrong things with ships. I need to often be me to be capping with havey cruiser or even bb cause my dds are too scared. So it must be something very fishy with the mm. That is why i proposed this kind of mm. Perhaps i am just too bad. Then put me with the too bad players. I don't mind being tagged bronze category. All i want is some fair mm. And you purples go play with the likes of you and not getting me into your teams if that makes you feel so bad. You can have your fun with your own and i can have fun with mine. And i ll be bronze tagged and you purple so the achievement will still be there for you to show it off. This weekend was a complete disaster for me. Most matches be at top 5 and lose lose lose. Close matches but always on the defeated side. And the only time i won it could very easily be a loss i did 200k and 2550base xp on a JB. So i try to find a way to make the game be more fair. 
 

[ColonelPete]

14 minutes ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

Example. Many times i have seen Flamu for example playing some HE spammer weak ships at the back or having great success with Elbings and Sultzes. When i play those there is never someone to spot for me. The enemy never pushes the side i am at. And when they do they are always nose in or relativly nose in. Seems like 2 different worlds. If i was getting in my matches the situations i see in steams i would do 200k myself. It's these kind of streams that the players keep watching so they also try to do the same but in their game it never happens. I remember seeing many streams for example with Roon sitting at 19km with range mod and spamming. When i tried to play Roon you know what happened? At some point of the match my whole team managed to be behind me. At A line. I was at B. It feels as the whole mm sets me up in some way. I try to play the ship "correctly" as suggested and as i watch on the streams. But always in my games the teamates never provide me with these conditions. And i have seen that for me to win is to do illogical or wrong things with ships. I need to often be me to be capping with havey cruiser or even bb cause my dds are too scared. So it must be something very fishy with the mm. That is why i proposed this kind of mm. Perhaps i am just too bad. Then put me with the too bad players. I don't mind being tagged bronze category. All i want is some fair mm. And you purples go play with the likes of you and not getting me into your teams if that makes you feel so bad. You can have your fun with your own and i can have fun with mine. And i ll be bronze tagged and you purple so the achievement will still be there for you to show it off. This weekend was a complete disaster for me. Most matches be at top 5 and lose lose lose. Close matches but always on the defeated side. And the only time i won it could very easily be a loss i did 200k and 2550base xp on a JB. So i try to find a way to make the game be more fair. 
 

These players read the minimap and provoke these situations with their positioning. Just copying a tactic and use it exactly the same in a different match, will proably lead to much worse results.

[johncl]

I have players in my clan with 60% win rates ..With only 200 battles ...If they purchased a T9 / 10 they would fail hard ....Your system puts them in the top group 

 

 

Win rate means something but defiantly not everything  

[geschlittert]

1 minute ago, johncl said:

I have players in my clan with 60% win rates ..With only 200 battles ...If they purchased a T9 / 10 they would fail hard ....Your system puts them in the top group 

 

 

Win rate means something but defiantly not everything  

winrate always has to be put into perspective. Tiers, amount of division/solo games, ship type, specific ship...

[Grumpy_Shark]

16 hours ago, Bear__Necessities said:

No. I'm not waiting in queue for a stupid amount of time because the majority of the player base wish to remain crap. 

Oh in fact you d get eventualy good queues and even faster cause more people would actually play . We ttalking about triple numbers of people playeing the game from the existing ones and imagine how many more new would arrive due to the betterment of the experience overall. And you d be safe from those crappy people in your games that seem to irritate you so much.

[Grumpy_Shark]

6 hours ago, johncl said:

I have players in my clan with 60% win rates ..With only 200 battles ...If they purchased a T9 / 10 they would fail hard ....Your system puts them in the top group 

 

 

Win rate means something but defiantly not everything  

Then so be it. They will start losing and losing and they will be placed to the most suitable category for their skill to play fun battles with similar skilled players. And this will happen for everyone. Everyone being 60% will play with the likes of him if he is "fake 60%" he will soon drop to something less and he ll be playing with others like him. But the category he will drop will give him more fun. But also the bad stat player will get to play with other terribles and craps like him and he will start wining more than before so he will have more fun as well. So he will play more->better queues. So he will spend more->more profit for WG, cause he will be willing to spend more for a game that gives him so much fun. And the achievment will be painted on the player name visible in all game modes and visible on clan chat as well. No longer digging in sites. The purple painted letters of the name of the player will tell the story at first glance. Ok maybe in the long run those stats as actual numbers might drop but that player will still be in purple category (the categories can be adjusted in time to come if people start to drop from 60% due to them having to deal with other similarly skilled people so in time the purple category might start from lower stats in the long run but those guys will still be purple and feel "achieved" And that achievement will be always visible since it will painted on their name, just like it happens with the clan's tag because of clan battles progress.) 
Where is the wrong in that? 

[Itwastuesday]

Plzno. I want my games against the good players without having to grind 26191 years to get stats.

[ColonelPete]

42 minutes ago, Grumpy_Shark said:

Oh in fact you d get eventualy good queues and even faster cause more people would actually play . We ttalking about triple numbers of people playeing the game from the existing ones and imagine how many more new would arrive due to the betterment of the experience overall. And you d be safe from those crappy people in your games that seem to irritate you so much.

Dreams are nice and dandy, but reality works differently.

Modeen Warfare crippled its playerbase with skill basd MM...

[Grumpy_Shark]

6 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

These players read the minimap and provoke these situations with their positioning. Just copying a tactic and use it exactly the same in a different match, will proably lead to much worse results.

Take a look at this video and tell me where was the "reading and provoking".All went so convenient right from the start. His dd and some other ship pushed with courage and capped and were providing  good spotting and survived long enough so that he can reach the first 100k from safety.  Flamu turned his ship from the start because it just happened his team to get the upper hand right from the start. It was easy to defend the counterpush at a later point with his radar cruiser. And the enemy Mogador managed to hit land instead of just run away and return after and good luck hitting it then with those slow shells while retreating with his superspeed.  But he instead hit land. And managed to get farmed.The same Mogador that a little later on while on 10% health started a fight against 2 other ships so Flamu could finish it with ease. Hadn't been that his teamates would probably do it.  And happened into a game without CV and witout submarines when i get constantly CV and submarine and in some cases i get 2 CVs + 2 submarines. How strange some people don't get those especialy this weekend...