Question about HE shells

[Wulf_Ace]

Was playing Nevsky, I did found myself firing mostly HE shells and not making a lot of fires, then I was curious would this build be any good with Nevsky?

 

Would 10% more HE damage and more penetration would add him more dmg against DDs and cruisers? or even BBs? What is your build with him?

Also would you recommend this build to any of the current tier 10 cruisers in game and witch ones?

I did read everything about IFHE but still cant completely understand the negative side of it, beside lower fire chance, why doesnt it deals more damage since more penetration and combined with 10% more damage?

[ColonelPete]

If you want to cause fires, lowering the chances does not help.

Generally I would not suggest a "Lighthouse" Setup (bad concealment) on a light Cruiser, even if Nevsky is quite tough.

 

I have this setup:

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PRSC210&modules=11111&upgrades=154321&commander=PCW001&skills=4277569&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

[Panocek]

Biggest issue with IFHE, is relative lack of targets to justify fire chance tradeoff - only FR and UK BB lines make extensive use of 32mm plating, rest of the battleships are better armored than whatever you get with IFHE besides bow/stern sections. And when dealing with such targets, you usually want all the fire chance you can put your hands on. Majority of cruisers are within standard HE pen reach, while "uparmored" ones are outside of 37mm HE pen, making skill useless once more, unless for some reason all you see are Rigas and their 35mm amidships.

 

Increasing rather modest base HE shell damage by 15% will in practice increase damage by whole... 82 per shell. 41 if ship section is already saturated. You be the judge if thats worth 3 points and almost 15km detection on a cruiser.

 

As for my build:

Turret traverse is somewhat superfluous, but I kinda felt it wasn't turning fast enough (with reload mod) for such "dynamic" ship, as in fast moving and fast firing.

IFA I guess would be least useless tier 1 skill

PT I'm just used to, also -> "least useless" tier 2

AR and SI, to get some extra reload when you're fired upon and some extra heal just in case you don't get blapped

Concealment because muh build diversity.

 

Besides, with Nevsky you use AP whenever broadside is present, HE is... well, its not Petro tier bad, I'll give it that.

[Wulf_Ace]

would 3 points with 10% more damage with HE shells be worth it? without IFHE?

[Redcap375]

Double down on fires mate. 16% on 6 sec reload guns at least (without AR kicked in, but with range mod) is crazy good. I take range mod, not reload but not played it since CB's where range is more valuable more often than not. 

 

Never disregard concealment on light cruisers. Concealment is life.

 

So....

 

CE - obviously, concealment is life

Top Grade Gunner - 13.2 km concealment makes taking this skill a great choice.

SE - Your a light cruiser, you need all the health you can get

AR - Steal for 3 points, adds more salt and pepper.

DE - 1% only but when double down, all the fire chance makes the difference. Add with flags.

SI - Radar and Hydro/Defence AA is always usable, epically for a DD killer like the Nesky can be. If you radar within say 9 km of him/her, it's toast. 

IFA - Because you are always working from distance until later game so you will always use the skill

 

and whatever you want for the last point.  Gun feeder and turret retention are kinda whatever on a fast turret turning and reloading cruiser.  But if hard pushed to pick then turret rotation just because I like that on most cruisers.  AA is all kinda meh with the rework and you will still get dropped hard so I take Hydro for those nasty torps or pushing some poor gits smoke. I hardly use PT as I treat all ships as if someone is firing and torping me at all times when I am.

 

Too many people have damage in the back of their minds and forget they are still a light cruiser.  Getting spotted at 14.5 km is crazy and will get you killed fast from hard hitting BB guns. Or anything for that matter like Petro and Balancegrads.

[tocqueville8]

 

This is my Nevsky build:

 

1) I take Def AA, not hydro, as I mostly play at range, or have radar to tell me where the DD is. RPF also helps angling towards incoming torps, if I have to push. The final 2 points are going to go to extra consumable duration, mainly for the radar. An alternative would be Top Grade Gunner for 4 points, to help gun down DDs, or Survivability Expert + Last Stand/Grease the Gears. You might prefer steering, I just picked engine and went with it. 

 

2) Any skill that worsens your concealment makes little sense on a powerful radar cruiser: with a full stealth build the difference between surface concealment and radar range is 800 m, and you can make some of that up by approaching caps from behind island cover, turning away, then radaring as soon as you're spotted (or earlier, to pre-turn your turrets). In that case, a full concealment build might not be needed, but you still want it for open-water situations: a DD might blunder into your radar range if the two of you are going towards each other, but let him see you 1.4 km earlier and he'll be able to escape without getting radared (or barely getting radared).

Also, 10% more HE damage isn't too important in the grand scheme of things:

- you should use AP against broadside cruisers: the pen is such that you can citadel many of them even at range

- your fire rate is great, it doesn't take long for you to do that extra 10% with another salvo

- 10% more HE damage doesn't mean 10% more fires, so it's far from 10% more damage overall

 

3) IFHE makes your HE pen jump from 30 mm to 37 mm. But 30 mm is already enough to pen most high-tier cruiser plating, while many BBs have 38 mm (USN BBs deck armor), 40, 50, 57, etc.

The only important threshold you cross is 32 mm, which is the bow and stern plating of high tier BBs, as well as the decks of Amagi, Hizen, British T8-10 BBs, French T8-10 BBs and some of the upcoming German battlecruisers. And some upper belts, but against those you should be shooting AP. It's great against those BBs, but it's a fairly small selection, and most of them are second-line BBs that tend not to push. In exchange, you ruin your fire chance against everything. It's not worth it, imho.

 

My WR in the Nevsky is 72%, but I often play it in division, so it's not *that* good. Still, it's an above-average T10 performer for me.

I hope this helps 

[Itwastuesday]

I don't have Nevsky, but I'd say no. 

 

- It has good AP

- It has good ability to screw with triangles with radar and good ballistics

- It already has decent enough HE pen for anything but select battleships that you would want to set fires on anyway

 

It's the only cruiser that combines a great radar with fast shells and good dpm, therefore, in my theory anyway, being the only cruiser that's a self-sufficient counter to destroyers. I would not trade this ability for better farming battleship numbers.

[tocqueville8]

4 hours ago, Wulf_Ace said:

Also would you recommend this build to any of the current tier 10 cruisers in game and witch ones?

1A) I wouldn't recommend IFHE on any light cruiser, as it only makes it cross the 32 mm threshold.

 

1B) Super-light cruisers (DD-caliber guns, like Colbert and Austin) also shouldn't take take IFHE, as it only makes them go from 21 mm to 26. That means they cross 25 mm, which is the plating of some high-tier cruisers (especially bow and stern), but it does nothing against BBs.

 

1C) On most heavy cruisers, IFHE means going from 34 to 42 mm HE pen, crossing the 38 and 40 mm thresholds. It's still not worth it, imho, as many BBs have 50, 55, 57, 80 mm plating.

Some heavy cruisers have buffed HE pen (British and German) or even bigger guns than 203s (British, French and Dutch), and then you have "supercruisers" (Agir, Stalingrad, Alaska, etc.), but it's still debatable whether IFHE helps on any of them.

 

2) "Heavy HE and SAP shells" is a must on super-light cruisers, as it doesn't come with a concealment penalty. I don't have an Austin, but I run it on the Colbert:

 

 

Avoiding concealment perks and taking Top Grade Gunner instead is the so-called "lighthouse build", which maximized DPM at the expense of...well, safety.

On most cruisers, "heavy HE and SAP shells" would actually *worsen* your concealment. Here, it doesnt, but I went for the Reload Module instead of Range (the sane choice), so the concealment-range window is very small.

The result is a ship that has to get very close to the enemy (using islands, someone else's smoke, or just a lot of courage), but in return has the highest DPM in the game, with the exception of an Austin with the reload consumable active.

 

I'm trying a lighthouse build on the Henri IV as well, and so far it looks like this:

 

 

The gun range is 22.1 km, concealment 18.5 . Not very teamplay-oriented, but it can be fun.

 

I have to say, both Colbert and Henri IV are underperforming for me, but the Colbert is very satisfying to play.

[KillStealBoss]

8 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

1A) I wouldn't recommend IFHE on any light cruiser, as it only makes it cross the 32 mm threshold.

 

1B) Super-light cruisers (DD-caliber guns, like Colbert and Austin) also shouldn't take take IFHE, as it only makes them go from 21 mm to 26. That means they cross 25 mm, which is the plating of some high-tier cruisers (especially bow and stern), but it does nothing against BBs.

 

1C) On most heavy cruisers, IFHE means going from 34 to 42 mm HE pen, crossing the 38 and 40 mm thresholds. It's still not worth it, imho, as many BBs have 50, 55, 57, 80 mm plating.

Some heavy cruisers have buffed HE pen (British and German) or even bigger guns than 203s (British, French and Dutch), and then you have "supercruisers" (Agir, Stalingrad, Alaska, etc.), but it's still debatable whether IFHE helps on any of them.

So this means you don't take ifhe on anything....

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

So this means you don't take ifhe on anything....

Fire chance loss coupled with more and more targets being outside of improved HE pen makes skill somewhat pointless

[tocqueville8]

3 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

So this means you don't take ifhe on anything....

Exactly.

Even if it were 50/50 (-50% fire chance but +50% HE pen), I'm not sure it would be worth it, as a lot of platings are simply too thick.

[General_Alexus]

I like to play it with the outnumbered skill.

You kite often on empty flanks so the skill is activated rather reliable, the speed helps with kiting and -10 dispersion leads to around 19% smaler area of your dispersion elips (if that translates to 19% more DPM I am not quite sure). But you also have a way easier time landing citadel hits on CLs/CAs(the base dispersion of nevsky seems a bit wonky in my opinion).

[General_Alexus]

4 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

So this means you don't take ifhe on anything....

You can take it for some T5/6/7 crusers as BBs at this Tier have 25mm plating, but well only if you feel like sealclubbing at thouse tiers.

[totally_potato]

18 hours ago, Wulf_Ace said:

Was playing Nevsky, I did found myself firing mostly HE shells and not making a lot of fires, then I was curious would this build be any good with Nevsky?

 

Would 10% more HE damage and more penetration would add him more dmg against DDs and cruisers? or even BBs? What is your build with him?

Also would you recommend this build to any of the current tier 10 cruisers in game and witch ones?

I did read everything about IFHE but still cant completely understand the negative side of it, beside lower fire chance, why doesnt it deals more damage since more penetration and combined with 10% more damage?

 

I would suggest going for HE shell dmg instead of IFHE

The reason is pretty simple. Your fire chance is not that good, and you lose half of it. And while you do get 37mm of pen, the advantage is against, French, UK and very few American and German BBs as well as the bows and sterns of BBs, while the RoF combined with fire chance makes you a dangerous firestarter and threat against all. So, increase the fire chance to 15% with flags, pyro, and increase the dmg with the Heavy HE and SAP shell skill for 3 points. As a compensator, go with Survivability Expert, to get better heals, and more mitigation power since sub 15km conceal for a CL means you will be shot at a lot. 

 

Note: Go for radar duration as 40 sec on 12km radar is very powerful

Also Outnumbered is rather effective, thanks to its range and hence kiting potential

[totally_potato]

2 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

(if that translates to 19% more DPM I am not quite sure)

19% more effective DPM yes, presuming 19% more shells hit

[totally_potato]

15 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

1A) I wouldn't recommend IFHE on any light cruiser, as it only makes it cross the 32 mm threshold.

 

1B) Super-light cruisers (DD-caliber guns, like Colbert and Austin) also shouldn't take take IFHE, as it only makes them go from 21 mm to 26. That means they cross 25 mm, which is the plating of some high-tier cruisers (especially bow and stern), but it does nothing against BBs.

 

1C) On most heavy cruisers, IFHE means going from 34 to 42 mm HE pen, crossing the 38 and 40 mm thresholds. It's still not worth it, imho, as many BBs have 50, 55, 57, 80 mm plating.

Some heavy cruisers have buffed HE pen (British and German) or even bigger guns than 203s (British, French and Dutch), and then you have "supercruisers" (Agir, Stalingrad, Alaska, etc.), but it's still debatable whether IFHE helps on any of them.

1A) I do recommend it in cases where the Fire chance is already kind of low, or the dmg output/RoF is so insane that it actually might be worth going. I semi-recommend it on Worcester, as the dmg output on that ship is just insane, and with the whole island humping, closer in nature of it thnx to orbital shells and low range, you will be facing more bow on BBs so direct dmg is more reliable there

 

1B) Agreed

 

1C) Its kind of bits of help on the Hindi as it allows you to pen Kremlin, and the 3 Yamato decks (2 of the more numerous and popular T10s), and since the RoF is quite good, you don't get that less of fires, at least in my experience. 

I still don't recommend it fully, coz lighthouse build is the way

Henri pens 50 with IFHE, and its RoF is not bad, and it has reload booster. So semi-recommended on that too

[General_Alexus]

41 minutes ago, totally_potato said:

19% more effective DPM yes, presuming 19% more shells hit

A bold assumption with the way dispesion works in general (dont forget sigma).

Also, especialy with AP: A few meters tighter grouping on a bradside can make the difference between an overpen (10% )and a citadel (100%), maybe I should test it in a trainingroom as soon as captain reskills are availiable again, with a decent sample size.

[tocqueville8]

22 hours ago, totally_potato said:

1A) I do recommend it in cases where the Fire chance is already kind of low, or the dmg output/RoF is so insane that it actually might be worth going. I semi-recommend it on Worcester, as the dmg output on that ship is just insane, and with the whole island humping, closer in nature of it thnx to orbital shells and low range, you will be facing more bow on BBs so direct dmg is more reliable there

On the Wooster I'd go for something like this:

 

 

CE+RPF to help ambushing DDs, and extra survivability (SE + LS) in case the team doesn't help me against some BB who pushes me out of cover.

In my experience, the trouble with the Wooster isn't the damage output when I find a decent place to farm, but to survive being spotted in the open.

 

Then again, I'm not that good with the Wooster. She was my 1st T10 cruisers, after all...

[geschlittert]

8 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

So this means you don't take ifhe on anything....

ifhe only makes sense on ijn gunboats or USN CLs in high tier.

And secondary fdg, bismarck and the new german bc line

[totally_potato]

19 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

On the Wooster I'd go for something like this:

 

 

CE+RPF to help ambushing DDs, and extra survivability (SE + LS) in case the team doesn't help me against some BB who pushes me out of cover.

In my experience, the trouble with the Wooster isn't the damage output when I find a decent place to farm, but to survive being spotted in the open.

 

Then again, I'm not that good with the Wooster. She was my 1st T10 cruisers, though...

No that's more standard. I am saying, it's not a downgrade on the Worcester

 

Say, for your build, I suggest going with TGG since you will be sort of close in any way, and maybe buffing the radar duration isn't a bad idea, yeah?

[tocqueville8]

1 hour ago, totally_potato said:

No that's more standard. I am saying, it's not a downgrade on the Worcester

 

Say, for your build, I suggest going with TGG since you will be sort of close in any way, and maybe buffing the radar duration isn't a bad idea, yeah?

I did once try IFHE Wooster, and I still remember the way I melted a poor Alaska on Hotspot...

Still, it was so frustrating getting such few fires that I put the captain on the Helena and started a new one altogether.

 

As for radar duration and TGG, I'm conflicted.
In my experience, DDs caught in radar either die very quickly or they turn timely and run away. 8% better reload is hardly ever going to change that, especially on ships with good reload already, where faster salvoes also means sloppier aiming.

And radar duration is always enough on CLs. I'm not interested in having 53 s of radar on the Plymouth: the DD will either be dead in 3 salvoes or angle away and escape or be behind an island the whole time. But the extra hp allows me to survive a torp I didn't angle against (those turret angles are a hazard...), or absorb a BB salvo from an instant before I smoked up.

With a stealth-build Wooster, TGG is hard to use other than against DDs: being within 9.8 km of a BB, if you're behind island cover, means it's hard to shoot over it, and if you're in the open, it means you'd usually rather have the extra hp, as you're about to be overmatched...

 

I put the radar module in this build because with Last Stand it's not as important to go for Engine and Steering Mod 1, but I'd go for that otherwise.

 

I do run TGG on lighthouse builds (Colbert and Henri IV), as well as on Alaska and Salem, which can take on some BBs. Possibly Agir as well.

[OldPappy]

I dont run ifhe on Nevsky. And I find the firestarting quite ok. I run it like a long range HE spammer in the start or first half and move closer later on. The damage is good without IFHE. I just dont find the cost of 3 pts worth it as it’s the firedamage on bbs that is the main damage source. Those very accurrate guns punish cruisers and dds alike very effectively, ans for those the ifhe is NOT needed. P

[totally_potato]

20 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

I did once try IFHE Wooster, and I still remember the way I melted a poor Alaska on Hotspot...

Still, it was so frustrating getting such few fires that I put the captain on the Helena and started a new one altogether.

 

As for radar duration and TGG, I'm conflicted.
In my experience, DDs caught in radar either die very quickly or they turn timely and run away. 8% better reload is hardly ever going to change that, especially on ships with good reload already, where faster salvoes also means sloppier aiming.

And radar duration is always enough on CLs. I'm not interested in having 53 s of radar on the Plymouth: the DD will either be dead in 3 salvoes or angle away and escape or be behind an island the whole time. But the extra hp allows me to survive a torp I didn't angle against (those turret angles are a hazard...), or absorb a BB salvo from an instant before I smoked up.

With a stealth-build Wooster, TGG is hard to use other than against DDs: being within 9.8 km of a BB, if you're behind island cover, means it's hard to shoot over it, and if you're in the open, it means you'd usually rather have the extra hp, as you're about to be overmatched...

 

I put the radar module in this build because with Last Stand it's not as important to go for Engine and Steering Mod 1, but I'd go for that otherwise.

 

I do run TGG on lighthouse builds (Colbert and Henri IV), as well as on Alaska and Salem, which can take on some BBs. Possibly Agir as well.

more radar duration means more guarantee of the kill. Also you can support your team more effectively with the radar coz remember, the ship isn't rendered for the the first 6 seconds of radar

[tocqueville8]

2 hours ago, totally_potato said:

more radar duration means more guarantee of the kill. Also you can support your team more effectively with the radar coz remember, the ship isn't rendered for the the first 6 seconds of radar

I'm just not sure of that.

 

Maybe I'll start keeping track of my radar-DD interactions (do I get the kill, after how long, does the DD get away...) and put up a spreadsheet on the forums, but so far I'm not seeing it: the DD will typically die well before the radar is out, or angle in time (it's AP, after all) and escape. 

It's only 9 km, so it's unlikely to catch multiple targets together, and you can't use it to radar two caps at once like on Soviet cruisers.

[General_Alexus]

47 minutes ago, tocqueville8 said:

I'm just not sure of that.

 

Maybe I'll start keeping track of my radar-DD interactions (do I get the kill, after how long, does the DD get away...) and put up a spreadsheet on the forums, but so far I'm not seeing it: the DD will typically die well before the radar is out, or angle in time (it's AP, after all) and escape. 

It's only 9 km, so it's unlikely to catch multiple targets together, and you can't use it to radar two caps at once like on Soviet cruisers.

Its not only against DDs, more applicable to stale ranked games, but often you can spot ships with radar for your team for farm them. Here its simple the longer the better, you dont get mich exp for doing it but your team benefits massivly.